HL-Slot Tailgaters

Dont Mind Me - I had a question / comment / experience and was met with snark. Back to just reading threads from now on.

What exactly was the expensive lesson you learned? It eludes me.

Sorry for not further clarifying - I used to take out markers in batches of 2500 - 5000, If I get behind id have to go to the cage and req another marker. Now I just go full tilt on markers (giving myself a soft loss limit) then repay what I dont use or all of it if I come out ahead.

Quote: IcarianX

Hello All - Second post here, but have been reading / browsing for a long time. I wanted to see how everyone felt / dealt with what I call "tailgaters".

I play high limit slots at VFC in PA. They only have 100$ WOF, 25x2 Credit WOF - 25x2 Credit Top Dollar Basic - Multi-Denom 5-10-25x3 Credit Top Dollar Deluxe, and some multi-denominational Double Gold 5-25-100 Slots.

I find this particular casino has a large amount of tailgaters, people who hang in high limit and watch for people with large volumes of play to lose, and then subsequently jump on their machine.

Last month in particular, I was down about 15k on 100$ WOF, and went back to get another Marker (we can save the discussions about when to quit for another day). It was a busy saturday night, and I couldnt get a slot manager / security / anyone to "hold" the machine.

I moved with purpose to the cage, and it took me about 5 minutes to get the marker paid out, by the time I started walking back I saw the JP Light Flashing, and about lost my shit with the guy who was sitting in HL all night, Jumped the machine, (even after I left my players card in there). It was taken out and sat on the 25$ machine aside of it. - In the end he had gone on a long string of Spins and kept playing.

My very expensive lesson now is to take out the full credit limit, even if I plan on a short session, incase I get into a long battle with a particular slot. I still see this happening quite a bit, I keep my mouth shut, and observe when they move from their seat after I get a good wheel or something.

I think you're implying that the machine was DUE to hit since u fed so much money in it.

Thats a fair statement, in my only defense after playing it for so long, when it goes into a "hold" it usually unloads around 20-30k of play. At least even a $2000 spin)
Not saying its going to unload all 30k at once, usually what happens is the machine goes into a bunch of spins (not one after another or anything, but it will spin after a long holding period.

Thats why it pays in these smaller casinos to ride out the hold, if you have the bankroll to do so.

Quote: IcarianX

Hello All - Second post here, but have been reading / browsing for a long time.
.

The rest of your post proves otherwise.

Quote: RogerKint

The rest of your post proves otherwise.

Ok the internet wins again - sorry for participating, asking a question. Have a great holiday everyone.

I sympathize, I really do. This is one of the hardest fallacies to shake, and I still haven't. Head, yes, gut, no. But the fact is, the only thing that decided the timing of that JP was the millisecond the spin button was pushed. It doesn’t care what's gone before or how long since the last one.

Far be it for the casino to tell you this, though. They love the illusion that it's got to hit because it hasn't in so long. That keeps people chasing their losses. But, in class III games like PA has (my understanding of what Valley Forge offers, please correct me if I'm wrong, guys), it is truly random.

First and foremost - Thanks for responding in kind. I do agree with you that its a Class 3 Random Machine. Not to detract from the actual initial thread (tailgating) which is now defunct, I can say that oddly enough we find "spin" and payout patterns with the Wheel of Fortune. A bunch of the HL Frequent goers discuss this over drinks, where we count cash in from the last spin, to payouts. and often they are within 10-20% of Cash in. (This again is Spin Payout, not factoring line hits) and this is over 30-50k of play on any given evening, and sometimes much more depending on how many HL Frequent Players are there.

Not trying to sell a system, or guarantee wins, because its far from the truth, just responding to the comment above.

Thanks again for not being a Snark, its probably why you are an admin.

I believe there is a two-word response for people who think that a machine is "due to hit":

Lion's Share.

Most machines have a service or help button. Hit that. Then tell the slot attendant you want a marker. Sit and wait until money arrives. Or can you not do this at VCF?

Quote: RS

Most machines have a service or help button. Hit that. Then tell the slot attendant you want a marker. Sit and wait until money arrives. Or can you not do this at VCF?

normally - when they are busy, Good luck.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I sympathize, I really do. This is one of the hardest fallacies to shake, and I still haven't. Head, yes, gut, no.

I know, but it seems to be the basis for most gambling and at least the basis for most gambling via slot machines of various sorts.

I remember that PhD guy at UNLV who runs the History of Gambling collection and lecture series. I have the greatest respect for his knowledge but I recall a newsletter that his partner issued in which there was talk of slot machines "having a hold cycle". Even those who associate with PhD's in Gambling Math tend to believe in a slot machine having an ability to not hit jackpots "too soon" but to collect some funds then dispense them in some pattern.

I still remember a slot that "showed me no love" and didn't dribble a single coin back to me. I changed to a different machine and as people sat down at the 'unloving' machine, I actually said to them, you can play it if you want but I think its broken because it didn't give me even a measly one-credit win. Of course random is random but I believed in the machine having some "skill" in luring the suckers.

Only these "Must Hit By $$$$" machines are ever "close" but the very next spin can do it and after the machine does disgorge a jackpot, the very next spin after that can be another jackpot.. there is no "special switch" somewhere except on the 'adjustable on the fly' server slots which are few and in Nevada must be idle prior to any such adjustment.

Quote: IcarianX

Thats a fair statement, in my only defense after playing it for so long, when it goes into a "hold" it usually unloads around 20-30k of play. At least even a $2000 spin)
Not saying its going to unload all 30k at once, usually what happens is the machine goes into a bunch of spins (not one after another or anything, but it will spin after a long holding period.

Thats why it pays in these smaller casinos to ride out the hold, if you have the bankroll to do so.

I don't want to argue the point and I know you removed the post about tailgating, but just in case it helps you in any way I'll offer you this...

As a former Slot Department Manager I played and reviewed hundreds of machines and looked at the par sheets, independent math reports and GLI reports on probably 1,000+ machines. As much as I wanted to believe that slots ($5 WoF in paticular) pay out in groups or are due at any point, it just isn't true.

When you left your machine it had the exact same chance to hit a jackpot after you losing a lot of money as if you had hit a jackpot 2 spins before and left it.

Machines are never due (unless it's a must hit by or something similar). They don't have predictive or exploitable patterns and there is no such thing as tailgating.

ZCore13

This is one of the oldest myths about slots. Player A gets up and player B sits down and immediately gets a jackpot. Player A thinks it would've been his.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

This is one of the oldest myths about slots. Player A gets up and player B sits down and immediately gets a jackpot. Player A thinks it would've been his.

Coulda shoulda woulda. You gotta risk it to make that biscuit -- gotta be in it to win it. Can't be played A's because he quit playing. I just woke up from a 4 hour nap I think.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

I believe there is a two-word response for people who think that a machine is "due to hit":

Lion's Share.

?? Lions Share was +EV you just needed a multimillion dollar bankroll and 1000's of hours.

Quote: Zcore13

I don't want to argue the point and I know you removed the post about tailgating, but just in case it helps you in any way I'll offer you this...

As a former Slot Department Manager I played and reviewed hundreds of machines and looked at the par sheets, independent math reports and GLI reports on probably 1,000+ machines. As much as I wanted to believe that slots ($5 WoF in paticular) pay out in groups or are due at any point, it just isn't true.

When you left your machine it had the exact same chance to hit a jackpot after you losing a lot of money as if you had hit a jackpot 2 spins before and left it.

Machines are never due (unless it's a must hit by or something similar). They don't have predictive or exploitable patterns and there is no such thing as tailgating.

ZCore13

At the risk and fear of feeding this crazy talk, because for the most part its completely random and nothing is due.... but not always. Most of the people that bring it up here are just foolish and ignorant.


Lets not limit it to just must hits, there are other machines that have similar situations. When it comes to the video reel bonus rounds the old school thinking "it can't be due" rules may not 100% apply, especially with some of the new stuff. They CAN due some funny stuff regarding bonus rounds. The line pays might have to be 100% random, but not the bonus rounds. Food for thought: Have you ever seen machines that suddenly give you mystery bonus rounds? Perhaps surprise bonus rounds coming up are 100% random when they appear BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE.

There is more to this than when the experts made their stand regarding the common reel machines.

The Indiana Jones slot machines was a perfect HIDDEN example of this(there was no obvious accumulator or indication they worked different) It based your bonus on previous play. Yes you cold stalk the person previously playing and gain an advantage(with a few caveats). The more they were betting the more the bonus round was worth. If they were betting max coin (the loner the better) You would get significantly more during the bonus round. There's others I won't get into for now.

Darkoz claims he can predict a bonus round or something like that but says it's not exploitable (he also thought he could "stop reels" but he since debunked that himself ) I believe if you could predict bonus rounds it would be exploitable, even if that required stalking players/machines.

WOF WOULDN'T fall into any of that and any talk of patterns or whatever is crazy Kentry talk.

There is no doubt bonus features can be exploited. Ultimate X, Rock around the Clock, Rescue Spin, Egyptian Dreams and others can be played as hit and run games.

That's a whole different topic. This one is pretty narrow in the "tailgating"/"due" conspiracy.

There are of course many others where you have a better chance of getting to a bonus if you are playing more credits. Money Rain comes to mind in this category.

ZCore13

There are more than a few that say the higher bets increase your chance for a jackpot. Let alone the progressives that require a max bet to award. But that's not really the question that was asked.

Quote: IcarianX

First and foremost - Thanks for responding in kind. I do agree with you that its a Class 3 Random Machine. Not to detract from the actual initial thread (tailgating) which is now defunct, I can say that oddly enough we find "spin" and payout patterns with the Wheel of Fortune. A bunch of the HL Frequent goers discuss this over drinks, where we count cash in from the last spin, to payouts. and often they are within 10-20% of Cash in. (This again is Spin Payout, not factoring line hits) and this is over 30-50k of play on any given evening, and sometimes much more depending on how many HL Frequent Players are there.

Not trying to sell a system, or guarantee wins, because its far from the truth, just responding to the comment above.

Thanks again for not being a Snark, its probably why you are an admin.

It sounds like you have a good time with the HL regulars. I think you got hazed a bit, but you also seemed to hear what got said about it, so that's a good reflection on you. At least 3 of the people who responded really do know what they're talking about ,maybe more, so I hope you found them helpful. Chances are good, too, that someone on this board designed or did the math for the slot you played, so your full discussion was useful as well.

I do hate when folks delete their posts , and would encourage you not to do that just because someone gave you a hard time. There were 10 or so decent replies that are a bit disconnected now that the first post is altered.

Otherwise, welcome to the forum.

Quote: Zcore13

There is no doubt bonus features can be exploited. Ultimate X, Rock around the Clock, Rescue Spin, Egyptian Dreams and others can be played as hit and run games.

That's a whole different topic. This one is pretty narrow in the "tailgating"/"due" conspiracy.

There are of course many others where you have a better chance of getting to a bonus if you are playing more credits. Money Rain comes to mind in this category.

ZCore13

I think you are misunderstanding me. The games like Rock around the clock have a visible display accumulator or bonus. I'm talking about slots that have no such indication they are set up like that.

Games can have an internal HIDDEN accumulated banking feature that can be dispersed though the bonus round. They can even have bonus rounds that are DUE to come up. I believe they only need to tie everything to the bonus round to pass it with gaming. In the case of Indiana Jones it had both a must hit and a linked bonus round. When the bonus round engaged the machines that had the most play prior to the bonus round got the biggest amounts during the bonus round, even if the machines were empty for hours prior to walking up to them.

I'm fairy certain there are machines that somehow calculate prior losses(perhaps they just add percentage of your coin in to a hidden bank) and give bigger amounts during the next bonus rounds to the bigger losers. Once you have drained this hidden bonus bank the next bonus round is likely to be much less.