So this happened tonight
I'm certain the design reels to they appear to be close to almost hitting something.Quote: ahiromuIt's better than missing on the last reel? Maybe?
The nerve!
Quote: MoscaNeedless to say I was royally pissed off. One reel stop away from $30k.
C'mon, you know the win or loss was decided
the nano second you hit the button, the reels
are meaningless. I try and get my wife to
cover the reels and just watch the credits
window, but she tries to kill me with her
eyes.
Quote: EvenBobC'mon, you know the win or loss was decided
the nano second you hit the button, the reels
are meaningless. I try and get my wife to
cover the reels and just watch the credits
window, but she tries to kill me with her
eyes.
She's probably thinking "Go eyeball **** a roulette board" ;)
I'm sure Mosca knows the outcome is predetermined but still seems like a close call. You want to just mentally nudge it up. Does anyone remember those wacky nickel mania progressives that would nudge the symbols?
Quote: RogerKint
I'm sure Mosca knows the outcome is predetermined but still seems like a close call.?
No, it's never a 'close call'. It's a final definitive
decision it makes the second you hit the button.
The reels are just smoke and mirrors to keep
you entertained and give the illusion of close
calls.
Quote: rainmanNo big deal, I have had that happen to me 18 times in a yo.
ROFL
Quote: MoosetonOnly 30k? Don't those progressives usually start at at least half a mil?
I don't know about that specific machine, but some of them are really weird about which line # the jackpot symbols must line up on for the progressive. Some they have to land on line #1 (middle all the way through). Others it has to be on line #9 or something else (like bottom left, center, top right).
Quote: MoosetonThat's true. This just looked like a one liner to me and that's why I brought it up.
Looking at the picture again, it does appear to be a 1-liner. Not sure why it'd only pay $30K...unless the top jackpot is something else, like WOFx5-WOFx5-WOFx5 or something of those sorts....I don't play much of WOF or the other weird variations of it to know what the top jackpots are.
EDIT: Then again, on the left-side it says "Winning Line: 1" which seems odd if it was a 1-liner machine. Why would it have that feature if it was a 1-liner? But there doesn't appear to be any buttons on the cabinet to allow for multi-line betting. Odd.
We want answers OP!
EDIT EDIT: Hell, it could'a even been a 5-coiner, where every 1 coin pays $10K, but with a 5 coin bet it pays the progressive ($1M+ meter).
Do they ever say the machine malfunctioned, and instead award the jackpot?
Quote: BasesLoadedThey sometimes (often?) say the machine 'malfunctioned' and deny jackpots.
Do they ever say the machine malfunctioned, and instead award the jackpot?
What I think is more interesting, I don't know if this has ever happened before or not (unless it's obvious) -- do they ever pay you back when a machine malfunctions and you lose? Of course it's easy to test to see if a machine malfunctioned or not when someone hit a jackpot, the RNG and symbols didn't line up properly or something. But what if you're just playing and you get something like BAR-BLANK-BAR? What if the machine malfunctioned and it was supposed to be BAR-BAR-BAR or 7-7-7? Can you call a slot tech over and ask them to verify each spin is not a malfunction? I don't know exactly what happens when a machine malfunctions...but I find it interesting they only check for malfunctions (I assume) after a large jackpot is hit - NOT any other time (when the customer would have won but didn't due to malfunction).
However, on a VP machine, I once "held" the fourth card - but the button didn't work. I didn't notice and the card wasn't held. ( I play too fast sometimes) I shared this issue with the slot host. He told me that he was sorry, but since I didn't notice until after the draw, it was not their fault. And then they asked me to move so the slot tech could fix the button. Seems shady to me - but it was my own fault for going full speed ahead - a lesson learned. I now play slightly slower, making sure I see "held" above the cards I want to hold.
Not much I dislike more than playing VP on a machine with buttons that don't work as intended. But, given all the abuse they suffer, I'm surprised so many of them work properly.
Slots are really bad in PA, I think last year Mohegan was right around 90%.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm certain the design reels to they appear to be close to almost hitting something.
Yes and No. About 25 years ago there was a big scandal in the slot world where Nevada Gaming said that programming near misses would no longer be allowed. This was based off a case against a slot company called Universal Gaming. I believe the issue was this company was determining the symbol outcome after determining the win amount. Ie. the win amount was zero so they would decide to put up 7 7 blank to keep the customer interested because they almost hit the jackpot. Now the symbols have to be selected first and that is what the machine will pay.
Slot designers will still slightly bias some symbols to keep it interesting. You may notice the blank next to a jackpot symbol come up a little more often than the other blanks on the reel.
Quote: DRichYes and No. About 25 years ago there was a big scandal in the slot world where Nevada Gaming said that programming near misses would no longer be allowed. This was based off a case against a slot company called Universal Gaming. I believe the issue was this company was determining the symbol outcome after determining the win amount. Ie. the win amount was zero so they would decide to put up 7 7 blank to keep the customer interested because they almost hit the jackpot. Now the symbols have to be selected first and that is what the machine will pay.
Slot designers will still slightly bias some symbols to keep it interesting. You may notice the blank next to a jackpot symbol come up a little more often than the other blanks on the reel.
Correct - in Nevada at least, each reel's result has to be determined independently of the others (I think).
Confirmed - Nevada Gaming Regulation 14.040(2)(b): "(For gaming devices that are not representative of live gambling games), the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant."
That's not quite the same as "near missed are no longer allowed"; if, on each reel, each of the two symbols next to the jackpot symbol is 20 times as likely to show up as the jackpot symbol itself, then a near miss is 120 times as likely as a jackpot.
Or 40 times as likely if "near miss" is defined as the miss having to be on the third reel
Wasn't there a time where the ratio of probabilities of adjacent symbols on a reel landing on the pay line couldn't be more than 6:1? I vaguely remember reading that somewhere, but I can't find it in any regulations.
Yes I understand this however I don't really count this as a near miss since he didn't miss on the last reel. I believe the jackpot symbols appear above and below the pay line more often by design. They simply add the jackpot symbols just above or below the most common symbols so the jackpot symbols line up in the window.Quote: DRichYes and No. About 25 years ago there was a big scandal in the slot world where Nevada Gaming said that programming near misses would no longer be allowed. This was based off a case against a slot company called Universal Gaming. I believe the issue was this company was determining the symbol outcome after determining the win amount. Ie. the win amount was zero so they would decide to put up 7 7 blank to keep the customer interested because they almost hit the jackpot. Now the symbols have to be selected first and that is what the machine will pay.
Slot designers will still slightly bias some symbols to keep it interesting. You may notice the blank next to a jackpot symbol come up a little more often than the other blanks on the reel.
Even after that ruling there was a news story about the near miss controversy still being an issue.
Quote: AxelWolfYes I understand this however I don't really count this as a near miss since he didn't miss on the last reel. I believe the jackpot symbols appear above and below the pay line more often by design. They simply add the jackpot symbols just above or below the most common symbols so the jackpot symbols line up in the window.
Even after that ruling there was a news story about the near miss controversy still being an issue.
This is correct, as well as stated by EB, the visual location of the reels is irrelevant, as the outcome is determined once the button is pressed. Visually, sure it looks like it was almost a hit, though realistically, the series of numbers that resulted in the hit was probably far from the winning combination for that particular jackpot.
Quote: Dodsferdthe series of numbers that resulted in the hit was probably far from the winning combination for that particular jackpot.
You can never 'almost win' on a slot, if
you don't win it's by a mile, no matter
what the reels say.
Can you almost win at at the lottery or any game of chance?Quote: EvenBobYou can never 'almost win' on a slot, if
you don't win it's by a mile, no matter
what the reels say.
Depending on the slot you're not always off by a mile.
The way I design slots (and I've designed a lot of slots) is that the given configuration is the result of a random number chosen as a stop for each reel, where each stop is equally likely. This is how every slot mathematician I know does it. One random number per reel. So, the image in the OP's post really was one stop on one reel away from a jackpot.Quote: DodsferdThis is correct, as well as stated by EB, the visual location of the reels is irrelevant, as the outcome is determined once the button is pressed. Visually, sure it looks like it was almost a hit, though realistically, the series of numbers that resulted in the hit was probably far from the winning combination for that particular jackpot.
There is something called a weighted reel, in which the stops have weights. Then one might design the stops right next to winning stops to have higher weights. But this is the same as designing a longer reel strip with all positions equally likely. At any rate, it makes no sense to use weighted reels on multi-line slots. The fact that WoF is single line means it most likely uses weighted reels.
Quote: teliotThe way I design slots (and I've designed a lot of slots) is that the given configuration is the result of a random number chosen as a stop for each reel, where each stop is equally likely. This is how every slot mathematician I know does it. One random number per reel. So, the image in the OP's post really was one stop on one reel away from a jackpot.
There is something called a weighted reel, in which the stops have weights. Then one might design the stops right next to winning stops to have higher weights. But this is the same as designing a longer reel strip with all positions equally likely. At any rate, it makes no sense to use weighted reels on multi-line slots. The fact that WoF is single line means it most likely uses weighted reels.
Good to know! My experience with the intricate workings of a slot machine mostly comes from the gaming commission's resources that show how the virtual reels work in the machines we use. What was explained to me, was that the RNG was used to determine the outcome, was decided at the exact moment of the button press, and that the reel position that showed was more or less generated as a visual representation of what the result was.
Seeing a reel to be "one off" was essentially not an indication of necessarily getting close to being a large hit.
In reading what you've described, I'm wondering if it's a difference in design, or if I was not quite following what was told to me by our representatives.
Quote: teliotSo, the image in the OP's post really was one stop on one reel away from a jackpot.
.
It's an illusion. In reality it's a miss as big
as a mile. Unlike roulette where if it lands
in the pocket next to your number, that's
a true near miss. For a slot to be truly
random, no computer would be needed.
The reels would stop randomly wherever
they stop. But there would be no built in
guaranteed HE, which a computer gives
the casino.
Quote: EvenBobIt's an illusion. In reality it's a miss as big as a mile. Unlike roulette where if it lands in the pocket next to your number, that's a true near miss. For a slot to be truly random, no computer would be needed. The reels would stop randomly wherever they stop. But there would be no built in guaranteed HE, which a computer gives the casino.
You make it sound like a slot machine takes something other than a random number into account when determining the result (or does "built in guaranteed HE" mean something else?). The rest of your post is spot on; the computer (well, the electronics, although technically you could call it a computer) allows the probability of a reel landing on a spot next to the jackpot much higher than on the jackpot symbol itself.
