Worst slots RTP ever ?
A few weeks ago I discovered what I think is the worst RTP I've ever seen in the UK; a category "C" slot game with an RTP of "at least" 70%. I kid you not. In the UK the RTP is normally showing on the info panel of a machine or buried away in the help file somewhere, so it's clear what you're up against if you elect to play.
Has anyone seen a game with a worst RTP than this? If so, please post details (and in particular the country where you saw it).
Cheers.
The casino ones tend to be the best (94% is quite common), going down to the lower categories. I should expect 70% or 75% in pub-like machines - and beware they are not totally random but "compensated". Typically you can tell by the lower jackpot prize (currently £100) as opposed to £500 in bookies or high-street arcades; and £4000/£10000/£20000 in casinos. Of course the lottery, football pools and similar games with huge jackpots have even worse odds.
Here in PA, the state average is 89.9%, which doesn't seem that bad until you start playing and $100 blows by in 10 minutes with maybe a couple cherries and a set or two of mixed bars, or maybe a dozen 4 Ks or 3 special symbols on a 5 reel penny machine. I couldn't imagine people playing at worse RTP, this seems to be about the minimum that will keep people in the chair.
Quote: MoscaWow, that is awful.
Here in PA, the state average is 89.9%, which doesn't seem that bad until you start playing and $100 blows by in 10 minutes with maybe a couple cherries and a set or two of mixed bars, or maybe a dozen 4 Ks or 3 special symbols on a 5 reel penny machine. I couldn't imagine people playing at worse RTP, this seems to be about the minimum that will keep people in the chair.
That average includes video poker and virtual table games, both of which have far higher returns. I'd peg actual slot returns at below 88%.
This can never happen with our NanoTech Gaming games or any games that don't give players any choices except how much to bet, but this despicable result can happen with video poker (a return that is so anemic due to choosing to hold the wrong cards that it should be against the law IMO) as well as in craps (when playing the pass line after the four or ten is set as the point).
What I find despicable about this is that a very large portion of the states gaming revenue is made as a result of mistakes made that there is no benefit given to those who don't make those mistakes.
IMO, the hold percentage should not be greater as a result of the lack of aggregate skill of all players. But that's just my own personal opinion. When it goes below state minimum paybacks, that is when I am left scratching my head whether or not the state is paying attention to what is happening when it comes to their job of protecting players from settings that are what I would consider to be predatory in nature.
Strategic mistakes are one thing. After all, it's possible to play blackjack with an 8% RTP (92% edge) if you always hit until you bust. The law doesn't protect gamblers from being really, really bad at blackjack.Quote: Ahighthis despicable result can happen with video poker (a return that is so anemic due to choosing to hold the wrong cards that it should be against the law IMO) as well as in craps (when playing the pass line after the four or ten is set as the point).
However, allowing the player to bet even-money on a 2-1 underdog (betting a point of 4 or 10 on the passline after the comeout roll) has a 33.3% house edge and that would appear to be in violation of gaming regs. On the other hand, anytime I've ever seen someone start to do this, the dealer pushes the bet back so it straddles the outside line of the wagering area and that indicates a place-the-point wager.
Have you actually observed a dealer accepting a late line bet on a 4 and book it as an even-money pass bet?
Quote: WizardofnothingRight but I think there is a state minimum in pa I don't remember what it is, but most of the video poker has terrible pay tables, I actually think some of the high limit slots have better return them the vp- there are a few casinos with exceptions
I am pretty sure it is 85%
I see it all the time.Quote: MathExtremist
Have you actually observed a dealer accepting a late line bet on a 4 and book it as an even-money pass bet?
Quote: GoetheHas anyone seen a game with a worst RTP than this? If so, please post details (and in particular the country where you saw it).
Not entirely sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the Cherry Master type "video games" often found in bars and truck stops have a lower RTP - in the 65-80% range, if that high.
When I see these, they usually say "for amusement only" and are handpay cashout only. You need to physically call an attendant (there is no attendant call light) over, who will get a key to open the machine and reset the credit meter and usually pull cash out of somewhere (hidden envelope) to satisfy your payout.
I imagine that the effective hold is quite high, since many players are likely to simply spin off the credits, rather than requesting a payout, unless they hit a sizable win.
Quote: AhighAccording to a person that I know that is knowledgeable enough to know these things, actual paybacks for video poker at the Airport are known to go below state minimums of 75% as a result of enough players choosing bad enough cards that result in a below-state-minimum payback.
Via a annual basis of payback per machine, I would bet a lot that he's wrong. Worst I've seen at mccarran is 94.18% with optimal play. You have to play quite badly to be sub 75% long term.
I will have to look closer next time but I didn't see 6/5 type pay-tables at the airport. I think under 75% would be abnormal. CET actually has some of the worst pay-tables at the bars 6/5 Job on $5 denominations at the bar that's shameful.Quote: AhighAccording to a person that I know that is knowledgeable enough to know these things, actual paybacks for video poker at the Airport are known to go below state minimums of 75% as a result of enough players choosing bad enough cards that result in a below-state-minimum payback.
This can never happen with our NanoTech Gaming games or any games that don't give players any choices except how much to bet, but this despicable result can happen with video poker (a return that is so anemic due to choosing to hold the wrong cards that it should be against the law IMO) as well as in craps (when playing the pass line after the four or ten is set as the point).
What I find despicable about this is that a very large portion of the states gaming revenue is made as a result of mistakes made that there is no benefit given to those who don't make those mistakes.
IMO, the hold percentage should not be greater as a result of the lack of aggregate skill of all players. But that's just my own personal opinion. When it goes below state minimum paybacks, that is when I am left scratching my head whether or not the state is paying attention to what is happening when it comes to their job of protecting players from settings that are what I would consider to be predatory in nature.
lucky for me people can play horrible on VP or everything would be set to 6/5.
I always wonder how well a casino would do if they aggressively advertised certified higher paybacks on slots and VP of no less than 95% up to FP and good BJ rules.
At one time Fiesta had lots of good FP VP and ran promotions I'm not sure how well they did during that time but it was very popular among locals.
+1. me to. We just need someone with a key and then check 10 random VP machines, I would give odds none would be under 75% probably wouldn't find one under 85%Quote: tringlomaneVia a annual basis of payback per machine, I would bet a lot that he's wrong. Worst I've seen at mccarran is 94.18% with optimal play. You have to play quite badly to be sub 75% long term.
Quote: AxelWolfI will have to look closer next time but I didn't see 6/5 type pay-tables at the airport. I think under 75% would be abnormal. CET actually has some of the worst pay-tables at the bars 6/5 Job on $5 denominations at the bar that's shameful.
lucky for me people can play horrible on VP or everything would be set to 6/5.
I always wonder how well a casino would do if they aggressively advertised certified higher paybacks on slots and VP of no less than 95% up to FP and good BJ rules.
At one time Fiesta had lots of good FP VP and ran promotions I'm not sure how well they did during that time but it was very popular among locals.
A casino that I know has been advertising 98%. They even advertise it in the casino and strategically place the signs above machines that are no where close to 98%.
Quote: Ahigh
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IMO, the hold percentage should not be greater as a result of the lack of aggregate skill of all players. But that's just my own personal opinion. When it goes below state minimum paybacks, that is when I am left scratching my head whether or not the state is paying attention to what is happening when it comes to their job of protecting players from settings that are what I would consider to be predatory in nature.
This is a nice sentiment, but the hold percentage is completely dependent on the skill of the players on any game with a decision point, including BJ, virtually all carnival table games, all VP. I think it goes to the heart of the WoO purpose, in trying to educate gamblers on optimal strategy and true odds. I have to disagree that it should be illegal for casinos to offer such games but I do think casinos should be required to provide House Way strategy cards, HE stats, and disclose their true take (not just theoretical) on machines and games, not just by area, or even by casino, but by individual slot/VP game/table game by type in their building. Beyond that, caveat emptor.
Quote: AhighAccording to a person that I know that is knowledgeable enough to know these things, actual paybacks for video poker at the Airport are known to go below state minimums of 75% as a result of enough players choosing bad enough cards that result in a below-state-minimum payback.
This is an absurd statement.
I know a few places like that. One place still says 99% paybacks. It's not even close. However At one time(years ago) they did have 99.5% with a good card and bonuses.Quote: GWAEA casino that I know has been advertising 98%. They even advertise it in the casino and strategically place the signs above machines that are no where close to 98%.
I've not seen the article/broadcast but in Australia words such as casino, hotel, Shelia, etc. have different meanings than in the USA.Quote: GoetheI've just seen Mr Shackleford interviewed as part of the Australian Broadcasing Corp's documentary "Ka-Ching: Pokie Nation", an investigation into the spread of the "pokies" across Oz. In it he comments that he feels sorry for the slots players in Australia, as the average RTP is usually between 85%-90%.
Many of the slot machines are located in service clubs which can often be major economic enterprises in a town sporting bars, restaurants, gyms, function rooms, etc. as well as a variety of slot machines.
Quote: NathanIn my convenience store, they have a slot machine game that gives NO cash. I see people willingly playing this slot and it says,"For entertainment only." Really?
Nathan, this is usually an illegal game, at least in my experience I can say I knew of places that had that sign up yet in fact the machine would pay off on the QT [possibly not to someone unknown to the joint]. It would explain what you saw.
Quote: NathanIn my convenience store, they have a slot machine game that gives NO cash. I see people willingly playing this slot and it says,"For entertainment only." Really? You put your REAL money to play to win FAKE money! Why not just go to an actual land based casino and play for a chance to win REAL money? Or at least download FREE slot apps? Would both be miles better than putting REAL money to win FAKE money you cannot even use in the real world!
I can think of two possible explanations.
One - it's not unheard of. Back in the early 1980s, I saw a video game in a hotel lobby called "Hit Me"; for 25c, all it did was play four hands of video blackjack "for points." There was another game in the early 1990s called just "Games" (or maybe "Games US") that gave you a choice of games, including trivia, "reflex tester" (the machine has five buttons; one would light up, and it determined how long it took you to press it), and casino games like slot machines and VP. The object was to get to the top of the "leader board."
Two - the machine works like "bingo pinball"; if you know who to ask, you can have somebody buy back the credits for cash.
Was that number was the machine was currently holding or was it set to that? Newer version suggests it wasn't on the floor long . IIRC there's some bigger hits and even state wide progressives so it's off about 6% perhaps not enough spins to average out.Quote: garyt1957At MGM Detroit one time a tech had the newer version of The Walking Dead open and I could see the RTP was 79%. I was shocked they could go that low.
Are you saying it's "due"?Quote: AxelWolfWas that number was the machine was currently holding or was it set to that? Newer version suggests it wasn't on the floor long . IIRC there's some bigger hits and even state wide progressives so it's off about 6% perhaps not enough spins to average out.
Quote: AxelWolfWas that number was the machine was currently holding or was it set to that? Newer version suggests it wasn't on the floor long . IIRC there's some bigger hits and even state wide progressives so it's off about 6% perhaps not enough spins to average out.
Not sure. She had it open and the screen up where I could see RTP- 79%, that's all I know. This one is not tied to any state wide progressives.
Quote: WizardAt Hooters they used to have sign-up promotion for new players, offering $500 in free slot play, or something like that. Maybe it's still running. I did it and the slot play is on a small bank of promotional machines. I estimate these machines have an RTP of about 5%. Same thing with a promotion the old Vegas World ran for years. Personally, I think gaming shouldn't allow such deception, but I'm not in charge.
I would think that is one of the dumbest promos of all time. Player signs up for card. Heads to your promo machines. Starts with $500 and ends with $25. REKT. Potential player is like "This place sucks, I'm outta here". What is marketing thinking? Might as well have a free ass kicking machine at the players booth for every new sign up.
Quote: WizardAt Hooters they used to have sign-up promotion for new players, offering $500 in free slot play, or something like that. Maybe it's still running. I did it and the slot play is on a small bank of promotional machines. I estimate these machines have an RTP of about 5%. Same thing with a promotion the old Vegas World ran for years. Personally, I think gaming shouldn't allow such deception, but I'm not in charge.
I feel the RTP should be posted on every machine. Let the player make an informed decision. But I'm sure the casinos pay off who they need to to keep the status quo.
Quote: garyt1957I feel the RTP should be posted on every machine. Let the player make an informed decision. But I'm sure the casinos pay off who they need to to keep the status quo.
I believe either Illinois or Iowa require this on some if not all machines.
- I recall Binion's recently got busted because their "free play" machine never awarded the top prize; which given the number of spins processed was next to impossible. The fact that someone could even set a slot machine in Nevada to never hit the jackpot is troubling. Doesn't the NGC lab have to test and clear a sample of every chip that goes into every slot machine?
Quote: AyecarumbaThe fact that someone could even set a slot machine in Nevada to never hit the jackpot is troubling. Doesn't the NGC lab have to test and clear a sample of every chip that goes into every slot machine?
Yes, the NGCB does test all new chips before they can be installed. Just because a machine hasn't hit a jackpot doesn't mean it is gaffed. Sometimes crazy odds and standard deviations do happen.
Quote: Ayecarumba- What was the RTP on the "Lion's Share" machine at MGM that didn't produce a jackpot for decades?
- I recall Binion's recently got busted because their "free play" machine never awarded the top prize; which given the number of spins processed was next to impossible. The fact that someone could even set a slot machine in Nevada to never hit the jackpot is troubling. Doesn't the NGC lab have to test and clear a sample of every chip that goes into every slot machine?
The Bunions thing was a players club kiosk game. Not a slot machine.
Quote: garyt1957I feel the RTP should be posted on every machine. Let the player make an informed decision. But I'm sure the casinos pay off who they need to to keep the status quo.
I agree that on every game, including slots, either the RTP should be posted or the full rules made available to the player can analyze it himself.
I don't think the casinos need to pay anybody off to prevent this. Nothing major changes in gaming law without the casinos blessing. Why do you think the short-lived smoking ban in bars had an exception for large casinos?
How's THAT for gambling transparency?!
Though I can't imagine more than a handful of people in the 1970s able to compute the odds of the machine!
Quote: garyt1957At MGM Detroit one time a tech had the newer version of The Walking Dead open and I could see the RTP was 79%. I was shocked they could go that low.
Doesn't Nevada law allow RTP on its slots to be as low as 75%?
Obviously, that depends on who's playing it.Quote: AyecarumbaAre you saying it's "due"?
(-;
Quote: ThatDonGuyDoesn't Nevada law allow RTP on its slots to be as low as 75%?
Yes
Quote: ThatDonGuyDoesn't Nevada law allow RTP on its slots to be as low as 75%?
Yes. In my experience, manufacturers tend to set the minimum above 80% so they can get the same software approved in many jurisdictions. Still, 80% is horrid.
I used to assume they were holding 10%, nowadays I assume 15%.Quote: CrystalMathYes. In my experience, manufacturers tend to set the minimum above 80% so they can get the same software approved in many jurisdictions. Still, 80% is horrid.
Other times the machine is not located "on the casino floor" but in some entranceway or alcove and different rules apply.
Most machines meet Nevada standards, but state law is rather low. Competition is what drives the rates up. Eons ago the used slot machine brokers would list the chip set installed plus all 'spare' chip sets, but I've not seen such informative ads for a long time.
Quote: ThatDonGuyDoesn't Nevada law allow RTP on its slots to be as low as 75%?
Yes, but Michigan is 80-100% for theoretical RTP.
But actual RTP could be 79%.
Quote: DRichI believe either Illinois or Iowa require this on some if not all machines.
No, Illinois bars/truck stops require the odds of a spin that returns any money, which is an utterly worthless statistic.
Illinois and Iowa are also 80-100% theoretical RTP states.
Quote: tringlomane
No, Illinois bars/truck stops require the odds of a spin that returns any money, which is an utterly worthless statistic.
How is that a worthless stat? If you know the odds of winning you can calculate the odds of losing and the RTP.
Because it is missing the amount you win. It’s just the probability that some amount is won.Quote: DRichHow is that a worthless stat? If you know the odds of winning you can calculate the odds of losing and the RTP.
Simple machine
9 pays $5
8 pays $3
7 pays $1
Others lose
RTP=90%
Feature machine
9 pays $3
8 pays $2
7 pays $1
0 pays a feature
RTP=60%+feature
If the feature pays more than 3 then better to play the feature machine.
