Possible to beat slots?
Quote: chupacabra31I suppose this is kind of a dumb question, but I would really like to know if its possible? The thing that really gets me is that when I go to the casino I observe a lot of people, I mean a lot of people playing slots vs the other games available. It is like 80/20. These people do not look stupid at all. Do they know something I don't? I mean our local casinos only have a 88% payback. I know some slots are better bets then others but it seems like overall the casino has a HUGE edge with slots vs the player.
Certain types of slots (progressive, banking, or progressive/banking) can develop short term advantages. But they are not as plentiful as they used to be.
Quote: mickeycrimmCertain types of slots (progressive, banking, or progressive/banking) can develop short term advantages. But they are not as plentiful as they used to be.
And even if they exist, there's no easy way of telling which ones they are. In most places (one exception I can think of being Melbourne, Australia - at least back in 2011), the machine does not have to tell you any information about what its expected return is, although in Nevada, it has to be at least 75%, and it must say what the odds are of hitting the jackpot if they are 100,000,000-1 against or higher.
Supposedly, on a machine that has multiple pay lines, every position on a reel has an equal chance of showing up, so it's possible to determine the probabilities from the reel layouts, which you can determine if you play the game long enough.
Quote: ThatDonGuyAnd even if they exist, there's no easy way of telling which ones they are. In most places (one exception I can think of being Melbourne, Australia - at least back in 2011), the machine does not have to tell you any information about what its expected return is, although in Nevada, it has to be at least 75%, and it must say what the odds are of hitting the jackpot if they are 100,000,000-1 against or higher.
Supposedly, on a machine that has multiple pay lines, every position on a reel has an equal chance of showing up, so it's possible to determine the probabilities from the reel layouts, which you can determine if you play the game long enough.
A progressive game takes a little more work, but banking games are easy once you know what to look for.
1) The idea of hitting a big jackpot. In blackjack, which is essentially a 50-50 game, it would take a long session to win a life changing amount of money, in slots you can hit it with one spin of the reels
2) Intimidation by the tables. Some people don't want their decisions affecting other people at the table or the perception that they do
3) Perceived lower limits. You might play a penny slot, and it is perceived as costing you less than say at a $10 blackjack table. That penny slot might cost you $1.80 per spin and you might have 10 times as many spins per hour in slots as you may have in an hour at the blackjack table. Plus you factor in the higher house edge on the slot reels and this makes it even a worse mathematical play.
4) Not knowing the rules of the games. Some people just may not want to play table games because they don't know the rules and don't wish to learn when money is on the line.
I am sure there are others, but those are what I can think of off the top of my head.
For more information, please see my page on Mystery Progressives on Ainsworth Slots and Mystery Progressives on WMS slots.
Everything you can do with VP you can do with slots it's just 50x harder. When you do find a slot play progressive or something its usually better than VP and worth more per hr.Quote: ThatDonGuyAnd even if they exist, there's no easy way of telling which ones they are. In most places (one exception I can think of being Melbourne, Australia - at least back in 2011), the machine does not have to tell you any information about what its expected return is, although in Nevada, it has to be at least 75%, and it must say what the odds are of hitting the jackpot if they are 100,000,000-1 against or higher.
Supposedly, on a machine that has multiple pay lines, every position on a reel has an equal chance of showing up, so it's possible to determine the probabilities from the reel layouts, which you can determine if you play the game long enough.
If you take all of the bonus AP type of VP, VS all the slot bonus type machines, it's not even close, SLOTS are way more profitable.
Usually promotions or mail is better on VP because of the low hold, it doesn't take much to push a VP positive. Slots require a far better promotion.
Quote: WizardI think the best angle to beat slots are mystery jackpots. The type that must be hit by some maximum amount. Just keep watching as many games as possible until you see one near the "must hit by" point and then pound it until it hits.
For more information, please see my page on Mystery Progressives on Ainsworth Slots and Mystery Progressives on WMS slots.
Will definitely keep my eye out for these! I notice that it says when the progressive must be payed out by. This is not going to show everywhere they have these type of slots is it?
Quote: chupacabra31I suppose this is kind of a dumb question, but I would really like to know if its possible? The thing that really gets me is that when I go to the casino I observe a lot of people, I mean a lot of people playing slots vs the other games available. It is like 80/20. These people do not look stupid at all. Do they know something I don't? I mean our local casinos only have a 88% payback. I know some slots are better bets then others but it seems like overall the casino has a HUGE edge with slots vs the player.
There have already been some good replies to this. Table_fear being a very good one.
There's also the perception that you can sit down at a slot machine and safely pump in a tenner and walk away (perception being the key, short term addiction as soon as you sit down being the issue).
I think the simplest answer to this question is "hypnotic_entertainment".
Slot machines are noisy and flashy and quick. They can be fun without knowing what you are doing.
Simple as that really!!!
Quote: WizardI think the best angle to beat slots are mystery jackpots. The type that must be hit by some maximum amount. Just keep watching as many games as possible until you see one near the "must hit by" point and then pound it until it hits.
For more information, please see my page on Mystery Progressives on Ainsworth Slots and Mystery Progressives on WMS slots.
Very cool. I hadn't come across that article before, but I'm not much of a slot player.
If "Sheet Pete" is still around, is it about time (10+ years later) to update the study ? Maybe just spot-check a couple of the best, and a couple of the highest volume joints on the Strip ? I would volunteer to help collect data, BUT I don't get to Vegas that often.
Quote: sgeuThere have already been some good replies to this. Table_fear being a very good one.
There's also the perception that you can sit down at a slot machine and safely pump in a tenner and walk away (perception being the key, short term addiction as soon as you sit down being the issue).
I think the simplest answer to this question is "hypnotic_entertainment".
Slot machines are noisy and flashy and quick. They can be fun without knowing what you are doing.
Simple as that really!!!
Welcome to the forum, sgeu, and thanks for the thoughtful reply!
No longer is it a case of popping in a quarter and pulling the handle.
The slots are more like video games these days and with that comes the belief that with the right strategy you can out-think the slot and win big every time.
The slot makers and casinos are not stupid and play on customers to get them hooked.
Quote: JohnnyQQuote: WizardI think the best angle to beat slots are mystery jackpots. The type that must be hit by some maximum amount. Just keep watching as many games as possible until you see one near the "must hit by" point and then pound it until it hits.
For more information, please see my page on Mystery Progressives on Ainsworth Slots and Mystery Progressives on WMS slots.
Very cool. I hadn't come across that article before, but I'm not much of a slot player.
If "Sheet Pete" is still around, is it about time (10+ years later) to update the study ? Maybe just spot-check a couple of the best, and a couple of the highest volume joints on the Strip ? I would volunteer to help collect data, BUT I don't get to Vegas that often.
The lower 3 of the 4 Playtech Marvel progs are very predictable. We have won a fair few with our pro tactics.
Quote: WizardI think the best angle to beat slots are mystery jackpots. The type that must be hit by some maximum amount. Just keep watching as many games as possible until you see one near the "must hit by" point and then pound it until it hits.
For more information, please see my page on Mystery Progressives on Ainsworth Slots and Mystery Progressives on WMS slots.
These articles still introduce the term "target point" without defining what that means. The colloquial definition I would use is not appropriate for what you are solving for.
I have used the video game comparison a few times however I didn't equate that with people trying to out think/play it like a video game (people have been trying to do that forever). I think its more of a cartoon effect. not to mention the frequent pays they offer along with entertaining bonus rounds its more like an adventure cartoon. They have the ability to build excitement with the last reel making a special sound and slowing it down after 2 out of 3 bonus symbols have landed in position. They even do it when you have landed a string of winning symbols hoping for the last one to hit.Quote: sgeuThanks beach bum. I think the technological recolution has played a big part in slots popularity recently as well.
No longer is it a case of popping in a quarter and pulling the handle.
The slots are more like video games these days and with that comes the belief that with the right strategy you can out-think the slot and win big every time.
The slot makers and casinos are not stupid and play on customers to get them hooked.
Quote: sgeuThanks beach bum. I think the technological revolution has played a big part in slots popularity recently as well.
No longer is it a case of popping in a quarter and pulling the handle...
Something you touched on, sgeu... I think going from coin to TITO had big effect as well. I know it has for me. When you had to pick up actual currency (or $ tokens) each spin, there was a real connection to the money going into the machine. Plus, the whole process took more time. Now, once you insert the bill, all connection to actual money is lost. Even worse if you just insert a voucher, as there never was any connection to begin with. In addition, it is just as easy to hit the "Play 1 credit" button as it is to hit the "Play 10 credits" button (or 50, 180, etc.).
I do miss the sound of $ tokens falling out of a machine & filling up the bucket!
Quote: AxelWolfEverything you can do with VP you can do with slots it's just 50x harder. When you do find a slot play progressive or something its usually better than VP and worth more per hr.
It depends on what you mean by "everything" and "50x harder". (If "50x harder" is just a metaphor and the number could be much higher, then you're right, to a point.)
With VP, you know the probability of any card showing up at any particular time (well, except for something like the "Free Ride" card in MultiStrike). With a single-line slot machine and its "virtual stops", you can never know this with 100% certainty; after enough plays, you can probably estimate the probability of each symbol appearing to within whatever degree of certainty you want, but who knows how long that is going to take. It is easier to "track" a multi-line slot, if the assumption that there are no virtual stops (because they might actually make some lines easier to win - of course, if the first reel has A, B, C in that order and the second has D, E, F in that order, then having two or more virtual stops on both B and E would make sense as it increases the probability of all lines losing as there is no possible line where the first two symbols would match) is correct, but still, it requires a bit of tracking.
Everything as in APing. I wasn't talking math. I'm a 100% with you when you say you can never know with 100% certainty by tracking. However you can get par sheets.Quote: ThatDonGuyIt depends on what you mean by "everything" and "50x harder". (If "50x harder" is just a metaphor and the number could be much higher, then you're right, to a point.)
With VP, you know the probability of any card showing up at any particular time (well, except for something like the "Free Ride" card in MultiStrike). With a single-line slot machine and its "virtual stops", you can never know this with 100% certainty; after enough plays, you can probably estimate the probability of each symbol appearing to within whatever degree of certainty you want, but who knows how long that is going to take. It is easier to "track" a multi-line slot, if the assumption that there are no virtual stops (because they might actually make some lines easier to win - of course, if the first reel has A, B, C in that order and the second has D, E, F in that order, then having two or more virtual stops on both B and E would make sense as it increases the probability of all lines losing as there is no possible line where the first two symbols would match) is correct, but still, it requires a bit of tracking.
I meant its 50x harder to gain an advantage on slots. When you do it's usually worth more than VP. it usually lasts longer as well.
Example you would rarely find a VP $1 progressive over 20k however on slots you can and even 5x or more. but now you're dealing with a much higher hold.
Lets assume the lion share was positive EV, it certainly lasted for a long time. other than some rare dealt reversible RF on VP there is no chance a VP progressive will last.
Quote: Baccaratfrom79Read about RNG and then ask if a machine can be beat.
When I'm out working I usually do 15 to 20 machine plays a day working short term advantages. Maybe 10% of the plays end up losers.
Quote: Baccaratfrom79Read about RNG and then ask if a machine can be beat.
As a "professional" in the "beating the machine" expertise, I can tell you with a straight face that RNG has very little to do with winning in some of those games, and more to do with "how much". In this day and age its about being able to recognize a gimmick, state, trick, or exploit with the machine, and then pouncing on it.
Trust me on this, they are numerous and plenty.
Quote: Exoter175Trust me on this, they are numerous and plenty.
Really?
Name three.
Quote: MrVReally?
Name three.
Must hit bys
progressives
banking bonuses
Quote: MrVReally?
Name three.
I'll name you three of the "biggest" beatable machines that you'll no longer see in a casino.
Indiana Jones
Star Wars
Jaws
I'll bonus with.......
S&H Green Stamps
Wild Cherry Pie
I list these 5 because they are all done and over with and if you ever found one still in the casino, you'd be lucky and I'd offer you a cash reward for telling me the location and keeping it a secret from everyone :D
As a man who makes his living within the casino, you can't honestly expect me to openly discuss machines in which I make my living on, unless the cat is already out of the bag on them. You're welcome to suggest one and I'll give you a thumbs up or thumbs down on its ability to be hustled, if I've seen it, but I'm not going to give you the "Hustlers playbook" so openly on the internet.
As is, there are too many "hustlers" in the casinos. I would estimate there's about 1,000 or so with minimal experience on things like UX, and of course those numbers grow every day. There's probably 200-300 within those 1,000 that know 2 more of the hustles from the "playbook", and of those 200-300, there's honestly less than 40-50 that know 75% of the full repertoire of the "playbook". Of course when I refer to "playbook" I'm referring to currently "hustled" machines, not like the 5 I just listed.
Quote: djatcMust hit bys
progressives
banking bonuses
Sometimes I see people playing right next to an identical open machine they should be playing. Fine with me. Wish it would happen more often.
Quote: zoobrewWas "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" one of these type of slots? Twice in one day at S. Tahoe I lucked upon a machine that was at the 4th grade level and won a nice jackpot for the money spent. The first time I noticed a man staring intently at me and the machine as I played. Also the next day I noticed that the casino removed the machine. While not truly a "skilled" based machine, I found I needed the skill of using my smart phone to answer that last question correctly.
I've never ran into one, though I'd imagine if you could bank correct answers all the way up to the top and then hop on and answer correctly, it would certainly be advantageous, I'd have to see one in person to give you a straight answer on it though. I'll keep an eye out on my adventures!
Quote: djatcMust hit bys
progressives
banking bonuses
Could you briefly explain what these concepts mean and how to go about taking advantage of them?
Quote: MrVCould you briefly explain what these concepts mean and how to go about taking advantage of them?
Must hits and progressives could be funneled into the same explanation, though they can have two different applications here, I'll address both.
Say, for instance, that there is a machine that must pay by $1,000 dollars, and it is currently resting at $998.12. It has a $4.50 meter rate (the rate at which the machine moves the progressive up .01). This machine in its state, would require a maximum of 188x4.50 (assuming the current .12 had just moved to its resting point) coin in before it absolutely, guaranteed had to pay out. If the machine absolutely did not pay you a single penny from $998.12 to $1,000.00, you would profit $154 for this play. It is also a "progressive" so Djatc could have been applying that here, or, they could have been applying that term to VP progressives that, once they reach a certain point, are mathematically figured to give me more money by the time I hit the progressive (in this case almost always a natural royal flush) than I'll have to sink into them.
As for banking bonuses, imagine for a moment that you were playing your favorite game, lets say, "Mickey Mouse's greatest adventures", and while playing this game, every time Mickey landed on the reel, he'd move one step down a path, where at the end you'll receive 50 free spins that account for approximately $25. Lets say he has to move 50 steps, and comes up on the reel every 15 spins on average, with minimum denomination of .50 for the bet. It would require, effectively, $375 coin in, to achieve a $25 bonus. If, however, the machine would remain in its current state of completion, after a patron cashed off, we then might be able to hop on that said machine at 47/50 steps, need to spend no more than $22.50 to enter into a bonus with an expected value of $25.
Out of curiosity, what is your personal play point on the vulturable Rock Around the Clock machines?
I used to be a stickler for at least 8:00, but I've decided that 7:30 range is almost definitely good.
Quote: Mission146Exoter,
Out of curiosity, what is your personal play point on the vulturable Rock Around the Clock machines?
I used to be a stickler for at least 8:00, but I've decided that 7:30 range is almost definitely good.
You're more willing than I to play them. 9:00 is my target point, and every once in a while depending on the progressive numbers, I'll allow myself an 8:30-8:45 number, but it is exceptionally rare for me to do that.
In all honesty, a lot of it depends on its history. I spend time watching them if I have "down time" and people are playing them (IE Sweating), and if one is sitting at 9:00, but just bumped there from 7, I won't touch it until 10:15 or better. The clocks really aren't all that "random" in the way that they advance time, and if you're able to watch them long enough, you figure out that often times, you were taking them too early to begin with.
I'll ask you this, Mission, since you know about them. Are you able to tell whether or not you're going to the credit game or progressive game before it finally lands on one?
Quote: Exoter175
I'll ask you this, Mission, since you know about them. Are you able to tell whether or not you're going to the credit game or progressive game before it finally lands on one?
I would say I start in the credit game 90% of the time, but about a third of those end up hitting the jukebox after some win to get to the Progressive game. As a result, I'd say I see the Progressive game about 40% of the time, having already won some credits three out of four times I do see it.
In my experience, Green and Blue seem to be almost equally likely. In my experience, the average cash from the credit game is about $10.
I'm not aware of any tricks to the accelerator, but I'm not saying they don't exist. I haven't noticed anything.
I think the 7:30 play point is very slightly better than break even, but then, I'm a recreational AP and I'm not really planning on paying the mortgage with Bonus Time. Pretty much just like playing a slightly better than even game hoping to hit yellow or red. I like that it's closed-ended, so there is a Maximum amount you can lose.
By the way, if you hit Collect on the first spin in the credit Bonus, you get $5.00.
We should discuss the specifics of a few other things, but probably in PM.
Quote: IbeatyouracesRemember, there are different versions of RatC. Some have multipliers and more bonus rounds. The ones without these, I won't touch until they're at 10:00. Any less and we've always lost money.
Do you hit the Green more often than the Blue Progressive? I seem to hit them equally and have gone to the Progressive probably just slightly fewer than 100 times.
Quote: Mission146Do you hit the Green more often than the Blue Progressive? I seem to hit them equally and have gone to the Progressive probably just slightly fewer than 100 times.
I rarely play them anymore. But I still say the lowest one is hit the most. Motorcity got rid of the good version of RatC like in this video...
https://youtu.be/AzGkKV92yf8
The Mirage has two of them and two of the other style.
https://youtu.be/THSunJLdRbs
Quote: Avincowi should just be min betting this clock game i assume? wat about if I am getting close to 12, should I max bet it?
Always min bet.
Quote: IbeatyouracesRemember, there are different versions of RatC. Some have multipliers and more bonus rounds. The ones without these, I won't touch until they're at 10:00. Any less and we've always lost money.
I know there are different versions, but I believe mission is referring to a very specific version of the game, and I believe he knows that I know which version he's referring to :P
Quote: Mission146I would say I start in the credit game 90% of the time, but about a third of those end up hitting the jukebox after some win to get to the Progressive game. As a result, I'd say I see the Progressive game about 40% of the time, having already won some credits three out of four times I do see it.
In my experience, Green and Blue seem to be almost equally likely. In my experience, the average cash from the credit game is about $10.
I'm not aware of any tricks to the accelerator, but I'm not saying they don't exist. I haven't noticed anything.
I think the 7:30 play point is very slightly better than break even, but then, I'm a recreational AP and I'm not really planning on paying the mortgage with Bonus Time. Pretty much just like playing a slightly better than even game hoping to hit yellow or red. I like that it's closed-ended, so there is a Maximum amount you can lose.
By the way, if you hit Collect on the first spin in the credit Bonus, you get $5.00.
We should discuss the specifics of a few other things, but probably in PM.
I've read your posts for a long while about the information you know, and I'd be fully willing too discussin PM's at length, everything that I know, if you're willing to do the same :P
As for the game, where I play it, the money is a little different. G=$5 min, B=$20 min, Y=$100 min, Red=$800 min. The average credit bonus is approximately $4, if you hit collect it is indeed $5.00 on the first spin. Green is absolutely the most frequent by magnitudes over the other colors.
What I meant by my initial question, however, is more of a test of true skill/experience. Are you able to "call" which of the two bonuses you'll get, before it stops? I can, and I'll explain how if you didn't already know. It doesn't necessarily add any value to the game, but its an interesting quirk.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI rarely play them anymore. But I still say the lowest one is hit the most. Motorcity got rid of the good version of RatC like in this video...
https://youtu.be/AzGkKV92yf8
The Mirage has two of them and two of the other style.
Is that a nickel/quarter/dollar type game? Those progressive values are monsters compared to mine.
Also, by my count so far, there are at least 6 variations of RatC that I've ran into.
Quote: Avincowi should just be min betting this clock game i assume? wat about if I am getting close to 12, should I max bet it?
Always min, always always always. While the clock movement does have an influence from the betting denomination, the closer you get to the goal (bonus) the less that betting denomination has an influence. Also, the bonus payout in credit or otherwise progressive bonuses, does not increase or decrease based on your betting amount.
Quote: Exoter175Is that a nickel/quarter/dollar type game? Those progressive values are monsters compared to mine.
Also, by my count so far, there are at least 6 variations of RatC that I've ran into.
It's a "penny" game but min bet is 50¢. It's called "Classy Wheels." You need a big multiplier as seen in the upper left corner. I once got the SS&R feature with a 7x and scored nearly $500 of the bonus. I've seen more than 6 versions. Some even have 3 clocks. I noticed these at the Hard Rock Sioux City.
Quote: IbeatyouracesHere's another nice bonus hit. The Super Shakin' & Reelin' feature is the best, especially with a high multiplier.
https://youtu.be/THSunJLdRbs
That's awesome!
Not going to lie, I have no idea how to tell what Bonus you're going to hit. I'm barely even looking at the machine until it has already determined the Bonus. The Line pays are freaking terrible on that game, (Because half of what you are betting feeds the Bonus games and Progressives) so it's really a thoroughly boring wait until Bonus Time.
I reluctantly admit that I kind of like the credit Bonus game, though. I've actually had a few wins in the low twenties just from that.
I'll discuss anything except plays that were told to me in confidence. Most machines I know I learned myself, so I can freely talk about most of them.
Quote: Mission146Exoter,
Not going to lie, I have no idea how to tell what Bonus you're going to hit. I'm barely even looking at the machine until it has already determined the Bonus. The Line pays are freaking terrible on that game, (Because half of what you are betting feeds the Bonus games and Progressives) so it's really a thoroughly boring wait until Bonus Time.
I reluctantly admit that I kind of like the credit Bonus game, though. I've actually had a few wins in the low twenties just from that.
I'll discuss anything except plays that were told to me in confidence. Most machines I know I learned myself, so I can freely talk about most of them.
Next time you see someone playing that game, watch them all the way through. As they start their bonus and it spins to decide which of the two bonus games they'll get, watch the "reel" as it spins, It'll spin regular, then kind of hesitate about halfway through. Whichever symbol is present when it does the hesitation, is the bonus game it will go into. It is 100000000% accurate, though it doesn't account for much other than being excited when you KNOW you're going to the progressive game.
