Video blackjack - guaranteed to be random?
Quote: AbeFrohmanThere are several older IGT video blackjack games at my home casino. I have heard others say that somehow these could be rigged. Is that even technically possible? I thought the cards would have to be random and thus you could calculate the house edge based on the rules posted. This game reports that it is single deck with a fresh shuffle after ever hand played.
I personally gave no creedence to the claims of the person who alleged that the bj games were gaffed. You really have nothing to worry about in that respect, Abe. Even money on blackjack is what u should be worrying about.
Quote: mickeycrimm. Even money on blackjack is what u should be worrying about.
Agreed. These machines make enough money from a fair game.
not sure why
There is a Nevada gaming regulation that any electronic display of playing cards must be according to natural probabilities, where each card still in the deck has the same chances. Not only that, but I think there is a law that any company doing business in Nevada must respect this law everywhere. IGT certainly does business here so I would suspect this game you're referring to is fair, regardless of where it is.
Quote: WizardI wish MathExtremist would post more because he knew gaming regulations very well. However, I know a thing or two about them as well.
There is a Nevada gaming regulation that any electronic display of playing cards must be according to natural probabilities, where each card still in the deck has the same chances. Not only that, but I think there is a law that any company doing business in Nevada must respect this law everywhere. IGT certainly does business here so I would suspect this game you're referring to is fair, regardless of where it is.
Hmmm...not sure of the "have to respect this law everywhere" part. My first slot "jackpot" was on an IGT Texas Tea unit in Alabama, but in reality I got lucky at bingo. All games were required to be determined by bingo draw. I played on some VP games there that I thought were IGT as well. I often made the "genie" appear because she was cool. lol
Maybe they are given a pass when the state doesn't allow you to follow Nevada law??
Quote: tringlomaneHmmm...not sure of the "have to respect this law everywhere" part. My first slot "jackpot" was on an IGT Texas Tea unit in Alabama, but in reality I got lucky at bingo. All games were required to be determined by bingo draw. I played on some VP games there that I thought were IGT as well. I often made the "genie" appear because she was cool. lol
Maybe they are given a pass when the state doesn't allow you to follow Nevada law??
well, I think if they are classII then they aren't even real slots, so I'm thinking Nevada gives IGT a pass on that.
Quote: odiousgambitwell, I think if they are classII then they aren't even real slots, so I'm thinking Nevada gives IGT a pass on that.
Yeah, I'm thinking a pass too. But I'm still curious where the Wiz heard this or read this from. The "must follow NV regs when applicable" regulation is new to me.
and leprechauns to.Quote: tringlomaneHmmm...not sure of the "have to respect this law everywhere" part. My first slot "jackpot" was on an IGT Texas Tea unit in Alabama, but in reality I got lucky at bingo. All games were required to be determined by bingo draw. I played on some VP games there that I thought were IGT as well. I often made the "genie" appear because she was cool. lol
Maybe they are given a pass when the state doesn't allow you to follow Nevada law??
Quote: WizardI wish MathExtremist would post more because he knew gaming regulations very well. However, I know a thing or two about them as well.
There is a Nevada gaming regulation that any electronic display of playing cards must be according to natural probabilities, where each card still in the deck has the same chances. Not only that, but I think there is a law that any company doing business in Nevada must respect this law everywhere. IGT certainly does business here so I would suspect this game you're referring to is fair, regardless of where it is.
Google "Nevada Gaming Regulation 14.040 Minimum Standards For Gaming Devices." The regulations on randomness will be explained to you.
Quote: tringlomaneHmmm...not sure of the "have to respect this law everywhere" part. My first slot "jackpot" was on an IGT Texas Tea unit in Alabama, but in reality I got lucky at bingo. All games were required to be determined by bingo draw. I played on some VP games there that I thought were IGT as well. I often made the "genie" appear because she was cool. lol
Maybe they are given a pass when the state doesn't allow you to follow Nevada law??
I think drich once stated that regulation is no longer in effect. Doug Reul once said to beware of games by oddball manufacturers where it says somewhere on the machine "for amusement only."
Quote: AbeFrohmanThese are old machines - "Pot O' Gold". Does anyone even know if it is technically possible to make these machines operate any other way than random either by programming or switching out chips?
Anything is possible.
However, my experience with video blackjack on Pot O' Gold machines is that the blackjack rules are bad enough that there's no particular need to gaff the cards for the house to make money.
I dislike that argument.Quote: DieterAnything is possible.
However, my experience with video blackjack on Pot O' Gold machines is that the blackjack rules are bad enough that there's no particular need to gaff the cards for the house to make money.
They have Gaffed machines in the past. Reasons for gaffed machines is simple Greed.
I'm not saying they are gaffed or not im just saying its happened before and never say never.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not saying they are gaffed or not im just saying its happened before and never say never.
I also am not saying if they're gaffed or not, I recognize it is a possibility.
I would suggest carefully evaluating other options if you think that VBJ on a Pot O' Gold machine is the best possible play available.
1. Even money on bj. Probably a 97% game. About 99% of the games were this version
Never played them.
2. Payed 3/2 on blackjack. 2 glitches in the game. U could able after split tho rules said able on first 2 only. And split aces catching paint payed automatic 3/2 bj. Using Wizard's calc and rules chart I put the game at 100.03%. Played for CB .5% or higher. Always got the money. Pretty much payday everyday.
3. Payed 3/2 bj but glitches not there. A 99.5% game. U might still find this game at Cal Neva/Reno.
All 3 of these games looked exactly the same on the Game Kings except the rules screens. It was easy to identify the full pays because of their unique rules screen. Played the game for years all over Nevada and never ever suspected any of them of being gaffed.
1. Even money on bj. Probably a 97% game. About 99% of the games were this version
Never played them.
2. Payed 3/2 on blackjack. 2 glitches in the game. U could dble after split tho rules said dble on first 2 only. And split aces catching paint payed automatic 3/2 bj. Using Wizard's calc and rules chart I put the game at 100.03%. Played for CB .5% or higher. Always got the money. Pretty much payday everyday.
3. Payed 3/2 bj but glitches not there. A 99.5% game. U might still find this game at Cal Neva/Reno.
All 3 of these games looked exactly the same on the Game Kings except the rules screens. It was easy to identify the full pays because of their unique rules screen. Played the game for years all over Nevada and never ever suspected any of them of being gaffed.
they are like the BJ games at bar tops and on video poker machines like you're suggesting. However usually the good ones weren't at sitting the bar(bar percentages tend to be the worst). They are diamonds in the rough. In my experience they tended to be upright machines more often than slant tops, however that's probably just coincidence.Quote: SngwinnerIs finding a machine with these sort of errors common on the old BJ machines or a rarity? Do the rules of the machine usually address the rule and it's just not programmed that way or is the rule not even addressed? Are these the dedicated blackjack machines with the hot girls as the dealers or are these the BJ games at bar tops and on video poker machines?
Quote: SngwinnerAre these the dedicated blackjack machines with the hot girls as the dealers
Don't play those*. They're way too slow. Look for the older bartops & VP machines, or the brand new** VP machines with VBJ as an option.
*Unless you want a mind-numbing, unplayably slow machine... like if you're hustling drinks.
**3:2 ("5 for 2") is still an option; some places might not have reconfigured it to "2 for 1" if it's a brand new machine. VBJ SD 5 for 2 with surrender is actually decent. It's an option on certain machines, although I don't recall which manufacturer I saw it on.
99% of the time he will find nothin' but even money BJ with bad rules. They are very rare, I doubt he will ever find one unless someone tells him the exact location.Quote: DieterDon't play those*. They're way too slow. Look for the older bartops & VP machines, or the brand new** VP machines with VBJ as an option.
*Unless you want a mind-numbing, unplayably slow machine... like if you're hustling drinks.
**3:2 ("5 for 2") is still an option; some places might not have reconfigured it to "2 for 1" if it's a brand new machine. VBJ SD 5 for 2 with surrender is actually decent. It's an option on certain machines, although I don't recall which manufacturer I saw it on.
He's way better off sticking to the Big tits Video BJ screens, unless he hates money. You're better off playing slow than giving up a half unit every few minutes.
Quote: AxelWolfHe's way better off sticking to the Big tits Video BJ screens, unless he hates money. You're better off playing slow than giving up a half unit every few minutes.
If the goal is to run coin in, or cash out freeplay, plays per hour is an important metric. Sometimes VBJ is a valid way to run coin-in or cash out freeplay.
In my experience, the Video Big Tits machines often don't allow freeplay, and are always slow, and always seem to be higher minimum bet, and seldom have better rules.
If you want to look at obscured tits on a video screen, there are better ways to do it. There may even be a TV channel dedicated to that, up in the room.
But yes, if you explicitly want to slow play all night, then the VBJ setups that show a dealer are just fine... of course, so are the other ones, you just need to use a little discipline to play slow.
Quote: SngwinnerIs finding a machine with these sort of errors common on the old BJ machines or a rarity? Do the rules of the machine usually address the rule and it's just not programmed that way or is the rule not even addressed? Are these the dedicated blackjack machines with the hot girls as the dealers or are these the BJ games at bar tops and on video poker machines?
In the case of the 100.03 percent version i had the pleasure of playing while mechanics were working on machines beside me. When they punched up the theoretical payback screen i got a look at where igt put the game. It always said 99.5%. That told me they didn't know about the glitches. Whether it was an intentional or unintentional programmer's error is anybody's guees.
The 3rd version, 99.5% didn't come out until about 2003 and that told me that igt must have discovered the glitches.
Obviously there's a reason one can have to play anything.Quote: DieterIf the goal is to run coin in, or cash out freeplay, plays per hour is an important metric. Sometimes VBJ is a valid way to run coin-in or cash out freeplay.
In my experience, the Video Big Tits machines often don't allow freeplay, and are always slow, and always seem to be higher minimum bet, and seldom have better rules.
If you want to look at obscured tits on a video screen, there are better ways to do it. There may even be a TV channel dedicated to that, up in the room.
But yes, if you explicitly want to slow play all night, then the VBJ setups that show a dealer are just fine... of course, so are the other ones, you just need to use a little discipline to play slow.
I'm assuming he's not an AP and wanted a fair return and some entertainment. I don't suggest IGT even money bad rules for that. Even worst I'm beginning to see the greedy casinos put in Even Money no splits no double downs THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF. I feel dirty just being near them machines it's like playing a 6/5 jacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Gaming_Regulatory_Act
Quote: AbeFrohmanNow this establishment is class III with table games and machines. Does that require all machines that display cards to be random?
Many tribal casinos have both Class II and Class III gaming.
There may be a requirement that the two gaming areas are separate.
Look at all the stickers and labels. Read through all the help screens. I have never seen a Class II machine that did not explain how the win was determined.
It could be either, although I'm guessing it's a regular VBJ game.
if want to be extremely sure you aren't cheated play at CET. no doubles no splits no insurance even money bj. 4% edge from what I calculated. you weren't going to double your 11 vs dealer 6 anyway.... oh crap here comes a ten :(
As far as I know these machines can be mixed in with the class III machines. Now there may be some weird state compact that would require this but in general the states have no say over class II gaming.
If you are interested in the 25cfr547 technical standards regarding class II gaming then here is a link to the standards:
http://www.nigc.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=FHNohoJZUvw%3d&tabid=104
