100xOdds
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January 12th, 2014 at 2:03:10 PM permalink
lets say you have $1000 in slot freeplay.
my goal is to get a W2-G or bust.

originally I thought of slots in the high limit room, specifically $1 Platinum Quick Hits ($15max spin).

at the casino i'm at, the 9QH is stuck at $50000, and the 5 Platinum is stuck at $70000.
base for 9qh is 2000 x 15 = $30000. So the added $20000 and whatever overage for '5 Platinum' makes it +EV?

then I read this thread about platinum QH and saw Missions comment about it:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/15365-qp-platinum-thanks-wov/#post276313

"If someone is an individual who is not willing to walk away with less than one of the Top Three Jackpots, (i.e. handpay or bust) then I would advise highly AGAINST playing a QHP machine because the probabilities are not going to favor such a player at all and the machine will eventually grind them down to a bust in almost all cases."


So which popular slot machine would you play?

edit:
casino has Class II (bingo) VP, not class III
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24Bingo
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January 12th, 2014 at 2:10:09 PM permalink
In this case, if you really are going for "W2G or bust," you want as much variance as possible - you want a three-reel, single line machine. I expect you can find two- or three-credit $5 machines just about anywhere, and those are going to fit your needs far better than $15 pulls on $1 QHP. It probably doesn't matter much which one - probably the one with the highest top jackpot.

+EV on slots is rare, especially when you take taxes into account. Me (assuming this is actually freeplay and not a loss rebate), I'd grind it out on VP or VBJ, or, if that weren't allowed, nickel slots. But for your stated goal, you want a single-line machine.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
AxiomOfChoice
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January 12th, 2014 at 2:12:14 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

lets say you have $1000 in slot freeplay.
my goal is to get a W2-G or bust.



Why? You will take a $1200 hit but not two $600 hits? Do you really like paperwork? Do you want to flirt with the slot attendant?
FleaStiff
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January 12th, 2014 at 2:14:14 PM permalink
I would think you would want to avoid hand pays and tax forms ... but income is income whether the smiling attendant hands it to you are the unsmiling machine "hands" it to you.
onenickelmiracle
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January 12th, 2014 at 2:20:50 PM permalink
Hand pays are just going to be rare to keep them elusive and an incentive to keep playing. Actually paying out big chunks no matter is against the casinos best interest even with the house edge. I think video Poker would be better and my choice would be DDB just because like it and I know it good enough. I'd play it in dollars if decent. Personally I think hand pay or bust is foolish and I hope you chicken out if the first thousand doesn't hit. It takes many thousands lost to get a hand pay on slots and it's never smart being fixated on them.
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100xOdds
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January 12th, 2014 at 3:30:54 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Hand pays are just going to be rare to keep them elusive and an incentive to keep playing. Actually paying out big chunks no matter is against the casinos best interest even with the house edge. I think video Poker would be better and my choice would be DDB just because like it and I know it good enough. I'd play it in dollars if decent. Personally I think hand pay or bust is foolish and I hope you chicken out if the first thousand doesn't hit. It takes many thousands lost to get a hand pay on slots and it's never smart being fixated on them.



assume casino has class II (bingo) VP, not class III.

so VP is out??
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24Bingo
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January 12th, 2014 at 3:38:25 PM permalink
Not at all. If it's class II, then at worst, it's the same as the slots; at best, it's the same odds as class III but idiot-proof. Given your goal, I might still go for the single-lines, but the VP will definitely be a better tactic than QHP.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
AxelWolf
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January 12th, 2014 at 3:50:01 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

assume casino has class II (bingo) VP, not class III.

so VP is out??

Mind if I ask, why you want to go bust or hit a jackpot? Why not just try to get as close to the 1k as possible?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
onenickelmiracle
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January 12th, 2014 at 4:46:45 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

assume casino has class II (bingo) VP, not class III.

so VP is out??

The only reason people even play video poker is because they can trust the probabilities and check pay tables. both of which you cannot count on in class two as a blanket statement. Sorry but I think it's just dreaming altogether and don't see a reason for much of a plan besides denominations.
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100xOdds
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January 12th, 2014 at 5:41:23 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Mind if I ask, why you want to go bust or hit a jackpot? Why not just try to get as close to the 1k as possible?



got the idea from Missions post about w2g or bust. (see above)

but you're right. $1000 > $1200 minus taxes

so which type of slot will get me close to turning the $1000 freeplay into $1000 cash?
or it doesn't matter? just pick the higher demoninations because they're suppose to have higher payback?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
tringlomane
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January 12th, 2014 at 6:15:19 PM permalink
Considering some of your other posts, is this freeplay is in Maryland?

Video Poker IS Class III there, they just call them VLTs because it's managed by the lottery. I would play that with your freeplay if you have to choose only between slots and video poker (and not electronic table games). Of course, I am biased toward video poker...lol

Paytables are bad unless you play $25/hand though. But I have heard that either 6/5 Bonus (96.87% max) and 8/5 JoB (97.30% max) exist at lower denominations.

http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/maryland-live-casino/comments
AxiomOfChoice
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January 12th, 2014 at 7:08:36 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

got the idea from Missions post about w2g or bust. (see above)

but you're right. $1000 > $1200 minus taxes

so which type of slot will get me close to turning the $1000 freeplay into $1000 cash?
or it doesn't matter? just pick the higher demoninations because they're suppose to have higher payback?



Higher payback is obviously good. Depending on how important the $1000 is to you, you also need to consider variance though.

You could play $1000 in one spin on a slot machine, and this might have the highest EV, but also you obviously have a good chance of getting nothing for it. This might be the right answer, or it might not be, depending on how much money you have.
24Bingo
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January 12th, 2014 at 8:38:18 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

got the idea from Missions post about w2g or bust. (see above)

but you're right. $1000 > $1200 minus taxes

so which type of slot will get me close to turning the $1000 freeplay into $1000 cash?
or it doesn't matter? just pick the higher demoninations because they're suppose to have higher payback?



If this is what you're going for, go for VP. Even if it is type II, it's not going to be worse than the slots. 6/5 Bonus is probably your best bet, it sounds like, although see what you can find.

If you're absolutely opposed to VP, as you seem to be, then my advice to "turn it into cash" is the opposite of my advice from before: go ahead and play a five-reel, multi-line slot, at the lowest denomination that won't get tedious. $15 on a $1 QHP machine seems perfect to that end. You're unlikely to hit big no matter what you do, so your goal should be to rack up enough modest wins that you walk away with a fair fraction of what you started with.

In either case, the lower the denomination, the more likely you are to walk away relatively close to the EV (which is almost certainly higher for VP, even type II VP). The EV will be lower for lower denominations in the case of slots, but not by too much.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
100xOdds
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January 14th, 2014 at 4:57:29 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Considering some of your other posts, is this freeplay is in Maryland?

Video Poker IS Class III there, they just call them VLTs because it's managed by the lottery. I would play that with your freeplay if you have to choose only between slots and video poker (and not electronic table games). Of course, I am biased toward video poker...lol

Paytables are bad unless you play $25/hand though. But I have heard that either 6/5 Bonus (96.87% max) and 8/5 JoB (97.30% max) exist at lower denominations.

http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/maryland-live-casino/comments



oh wow! thx!

is there a strategy sheet for 8/5 JoB?

how much EV would I lose if I used the 9/6 strategy detailed in WoO page? https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/jacks-or-better/9-6/simple/


edit:
these 8/5 JoB strategies look Correct?
1) http://www.thegamblersedge.com/vpoker/vpokerstrat85JoB.htm
2) http://www.americancasinoguide.com/vp/vp-strategy-8-5.pdf
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AxelWolf
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January 14th, 2014 at 5:02:39 PM permalink
Very little if its only 1k in free play. Its a few small changes mostly dealing with hands where a flush is possible.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tringlomane
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January 14th, 2014 at 5:25:41 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Very little if its only 1k in free play. Its a few small changes mostly dealing with hands where a flush is possible.



Yeah, it's definitely not too much. One example I can think of offhand.

3 to a Royal > 4 to a Flush always instead of most of the time.

But to be more accurate, you can use JB's strategy maker to find 8/5 JoB strategy:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-74-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-2-d-3-d-4-d-5-d-8-d-25-d-50-d-800/
AxelWolf
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January 14th, 2014 at 5:36:02 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, it's definitely not too much. One example I can think of offhand.

3 to a Royal > 4 to a Flush always instead of most of the time.

But to be more accurate, you can use JB's strategy maker to find 8/5 JoB strategy:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-74-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-2-d-3-d-4-d-5-d-8-d-25-d-50-d-800/

defiantly wont be holding king 10. And
the 3 card str8 flush holds Vs high cards is going to be more picky. If he is going to be playing a lot of VP in the future, It would be worth it to learn the few changes there are. they have a fair amount of 8/5 bonus pokeraround and the changes would apply on that game as well.

I have seen people pass up 106% edges to go home and study. And im not talking about a complicated game like AA.

I mean 6% edges at 106%
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tringlomane
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January 14th, 2014 at 6:02:51 PM permalink
Yeah, it only suggests to hold KT suited without a flush penalty. Very marginal in 8/5 JoB, or 8/5 Bonus for that matter.
AxelWolf
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January 14th, 2014 at 6:24:50 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, it only suggests to hold KT suited without a flush penalty. Very marginal in 8/5 JoB, or 8/5 Bonus for that matter.

I don't think you do it in 8/5 bonus.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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January 14th, 2014 at 7:29:19 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I don't think you do it in 8/5 bonus.



I just ran it:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/hand-analyzer/

You would hold it in 8/5 Bonus provided no Flush penalty card.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
100xOdds
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January 14th, 2014 at 9:04:39 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

defiantly wont be holding king 10. And
the 3 card str8 flush holds Vs high cards is going to be more picky. If he is going to be playing a lot of VP in the future, It would be worth it to learn the few changes there are. they have a fair amount of 8/5 bonus pokeraround and the changes would apply on that game as well.

I have seen people pass up 106% edges to go home and study. And im not talking about a complicated game like AA.

I mean 6% edges at 106%



wait.. what? those basic strategy exceptions for 8/5 JoB will cost me 6% HE if I don't follow it!?
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tringlomane
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January 14th, 2014 at 9:21:11 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I just ran it:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/hand-analyzer/

You would hold it in 8/5 Bonus provided no Flush penalty card.



And 8/5 JoB too without flush penalty card.

But JB's strategy creator lists KT suited for 8/5 JoB for basic strategy, but only King high for 8/5 Bonus. I think it might be an inconsistency.

Quote: 100xOdds

wait.. what? those basic strategy exceptions for 8/5 JoB will cost me 6% HE if I don't follow it!?



No. He is referring to idiots that go home to study exceptions when a 6% edge is staring them in the face at the casino. Time is money in this spot. Exceptions are mostly insignificant.
100xOdds
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January 19th, 2014 at 1:25:22 AM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

In this case, if you really are going for "W2G or bust," you want as much variance as possible - you want a three-reel, single line machine. I expect you can find two- or three-credit $5 machines just about anywhere, and those are going to fit your needs far better than $15 pulls on $1 QHP. It probably doesn't matter much which one - probably the one with the highest top jackpot.

+EV on slots is rare, especially when you take taxes into account. Me (assuming this is actually freeplay and not a loss rebate), I'd grind it out on VP or VBJ, or, if that weren't allowed, nickel slots. But for your stated goal, you want a single-line machine.



so apparently vp is class III. their best machines are:
$5 : 98.98% DDB
$5: 98.91% DW44
$5: 8/6 JoB 98.39%

if I want to have as much variance, pick DDB?
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onenickelmiracle
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January 19th, 2014 at 1:45:21 AM permalink
Only hold three aces if with a dealt full house containing them with DDB. It's a common mistake. All I can comment at the moment being quite green and rusty.
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tringlomane
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January 20th, 2014 at 1:12:57 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

so apparently vp is class III. their best machines are:
$5 : 98.98% DDB
$5: 98.91% DW44
$5: 8/6 JoB 98.39%

if I want to have as much variance, pick DDB?



Yes, but I'd personally play deuces to more likely avoid tax forms. At that level every DDB quad is a tax form.
100xOdds
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January 21st, 2014 at 5:40:44 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Yes, but I'd personally play deuces to more likely avoid tax forms. At that level every DDB quad is a tax form.



thx for the tip.

do you know where i can find the strategy sheet for dw44?
wizardofodds VP strategy maker doesn't list DW as an option.
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2014 at 5:43:29 PM permalink
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100xOdds
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January 21st, 2014 at 5:55:05 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Dw44 is just the paytable variation. 800/200/25/15/9/4/4/3/2/1



yes I know. but the only strategy sheets I can find are full pay dw and nsud.
I cant find one for dw44
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2014 at 5:59:04 PM permalink
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gpac1377
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:07:56 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

yes I know. but the only strategy sheets I can find are full pay dw and nsud.
I cant find one for dw44


NSUD is also a dw44 game with just a couple of improvements to the paytable, so NSUD strategy will be nearly accurate.
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tringlomane
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:11:34 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

yes I know. but the only strategy sheets I can find are full pay dw and nsud.
I cant find one for dw44



NSUD would work well as it is 99.73% dw44 ("44" stands for 4 for full house/4 for flush). The differences between 99.73% and 98.91% dw44 are mostly insignificant, but running JB's strategy calculator would be a bit more accurate.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-44-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-2-d-3-d-4-d-4-d-9-d-15-d-25-d-200-d-800/
100xOdds
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:31:14 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/calculator/

Choose deuces wild then change the paytable numbers.



I don't see that option. I only see:
5card draw poker
anythings wild
five aces poker
quick quads

what I am doing wrong?
(this is on both IE and Chrome browsers)
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:33:37 PM permalink
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100xOdds
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:34:04 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

NSUD would work well as it is 99.73% dw44 ("44" stands for 4 for full house/4 for flush). The differences between 99.73% and 98.91% dw44 are mostly insignificant, but running JB's strategy calculator would be a bit more accurate.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-44-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-2-d-3-d-4-d-4-d-9-d-15-d-25-d-200-d-800/



from what I read nsud strategy will not work with dw44.

in nsud, you keep 5 of a kind if you have 3 deuces.
you do not keep 5oak in dw44.

nsud pays 16 for 5oak.
dw44 pays 15
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:38:53 PM permalink
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100xOdds
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:39:59 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Click continud under 5 card draw and the next box will highlight the games with jacks or better being shown. Click the arrow next to that to change it to deuces wild. The games are in alphabetical order.



thx! but JB strategy sheet is for full pay DW.

googled that for dw44, I keep 2 pairs and I pick 4flush over single pair.
(both if I had 0 deuces )
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:43:58 PM permalink
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:44:30 PM permalink
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100xOdds
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:45:06 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Change the four of a kind to a 4, the full house to a 4, and the flush to a 3.



ahh.. in the url link?
THX!!
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:48:32 PM permalink
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tringlomane
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January 21st, 2014 at 7:29:05 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Even if you use one of the other DW strategies, it won't cost you to much. Especially since it's with free play and you don't play it regularly. Think of it like a blackjack player that plays for a few minutes only once a year.



Not a ton, but using FPDW strategy would be relatively costly, since you want to hold 2 pair and 4 to a flush over a pair in dw44 games with dealt no deuces. According to this, using FPDW strategy on NSUD costs you nearly a percent, ouch! http://www.videopokerhelp.net/wrong_strat.html But using NSUD strategy would cost hardly anything at 98.91% dw44, or at least I think. I don't have a good program to analyze that.

And 100X, I linked the 98.91% dw44 strategy in an earlier post. It also tells you to hold 5 of a kind with 3 deuces because 4 of a kind is only worth 4 instead of 5 in FPDW.
100xOdds
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January 22nd, 2014 at 12:44:01 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Not a ton, but using FPDW strategy would be relatively costly, since you want to hold 2 pair and 4 to a flush over a pair in dw44 games with dealt no deuces. According to this, using FPDW strategy on NSUD costs you nearly a percent, ouch! http://www.videopokerhelp.net/wrong_strat.html But using NSUD strategy would cost hardly anything at 98.91% dw44, or at least I think. I don't have a good program to analyze that.

And 100X, I linked the 98.91% dw44 strategy in an earlier post. It also tells you to hold 5 of a kind with 3 deuces because 4 of a kind is only worth 4 instead of 5 in FPDW.



oh my.. yes, jb's strategy maker does say hold 5oak with 3 deuces.
THX for the correction!

so the differences between fpdw and dw44 is:
3 deuces: hold 5oak
0 deuces: keep 4 to a flush and 2pair over a single pair

anything else?
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tringlomane
tringlomane
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January 22nd, 2014 at 4:14:56 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

oh my.. yes, jb's strategy maker does say hold 5oak with 3 deuces.
THX for the correction!

so the differences between fpdw and dw44 is:
3 deuces: hold 5oak
0 deuces: keep 4 to a flush and 2pair over a single pair

anything else?



There are a lot more minor differences, but do you have FPDW memorized already, or are you wanting to try to memorize FPDW at the same time? Offering FPDW is illegal in Maryland. Greater than 100% max payback games are illegal there along with several other states. And FPDW doesn't exist outside of Nevada to my knowledge either. :(

It's better to compare this game to NSUD, which the wizard has a fairly concise strategy here:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/deuces-wild/not-so-ugly-ducks/

Changes in 98.91% DW44 from Wiz's intermediate NSUD strategy, hopefully I didn't miss any:

0 deuces:
2 to RF K-high > 3 to A-low SF

1 deuce:
3 of a kind > 4 to SF with 2 gaps
100xOdds
100xOdds
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February 6th, 2014 at 5:01:37 PM permalink
just trying to minimize the amount of paper I need to bring with me.

JB's strat creater is great but is ALOT longer than the WIZ's.
ie: wiz's nsud vs jb's dw44

what changes from Wiz's 9/6 JoB intermediate strat for 8/5 JoB?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
wrxrob
wrxrob
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February 25th, 2014 at 8:53:36 AM permalink
bumping this thread to see if you have played out the free play. (and how did you make out? )

On the day you made this last post, I hit my first ever royal flush playing quarter DDB at Maryland Live.
100xOdds
100xOdds
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February 27th, 2014 at 12:05:37 PM permalink
Quote: wrxrob

bumping this thread to see if you have played out the free play. (and how did you make out? )

On the day you made this last post, I hit my first ever royal flush playing quarter DDB at Maryland Live.



well, I spent my $770 in comps on dw44.
md live changed the $5 vp machines in the high limits area. all but 2 machines are now multi-line progressives.

and only 1 of the remaining 2 machines had deuces wild. it was still dw44, but no more double up. :(
it was a letdown. should have played the 8/6 JoB but since I was looking forward to playing dw44 today, I played it.

$770 comps turned into $570 cash.
74% :(

nothing higher than 4 of a kind. in the 31 hands, the most deuces I saw at the initial deal was 1. :(

congrats on your 1st royal!
did u take a pic?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
wrxrob
wrxrob
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March 2nd, 2014 at 3:19:59 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

well, I spent my $770 in comps on dw44.
md live changed the $5 vp machines in the high limits area. all but 2 machines are now multi-line progressives.

and only 1 of the remaining 2 machines had deuces wild. it was still dw44, but no more double up. :(
it was a letdown. should have played the 8/6 JoB but since I was looking forward to playing dw44 today, I played it.

$770 comps turned into $570 cash.
74% :(

nothing higher than 4 of a kind. in the 31 hands, the most deuces I saw at the initial deal was 1. :(

congrats on your 1st royal!
did u take a pic?



sure did take a pic.

This was at the R bar at MD Live.

edit: looks like direct linking doesn't work here.

But here is the pic
http://i.imgur.com/tCpLpL5.jpg

I was dealt 4 to the flush, but only held 3 to the royal. I had only $5 left in the machine when it hit!
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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March 2nd, 2014 at 4:06:22 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
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