mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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December 16th, 2013 at 3:20:50 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I am not aware of a regulation in Nevada that prevents a casino from changing the hold percentage on a progressive machine as long as you don't take away any of the player contribution to the progressive. If there is a reg I am not familiar with, I may have to self report myself. Last month I changed some percentages on some progressives.



Knowing that this can legally be done would stop me from playing most or maybe all slot progressives. I could never count on my analysis being accurate.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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December 16th, 2013 at 3:52:07 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I am not aware of a regulation in Nevada that prevents a casino from changing the hold percentage on a progressive machine as long as you don't take away any of the player contribution to the progressive. If there is a reg I am not familiar with, I may have to self report myself. Last month I changed some percentages on some progressives.



I think the question here is "How is the payback being changed?"

DRich, I take it you are in the casino business. When you change the payback percentage of a slot progressive, are you changing the payscale? Or are you changing the frequencies on jackpots? For instance, take a slot progressive that has triple bars on it. And let's say the frequency for triple bars is 200. And let's say the triple bars pay 20 for 1. This would mean triple bars represents 10% of the payback.

Now let's say this is a 92% overall payback progressive. But you want to slice the payback to 88%. Are you cutting the payback listed on the machine, 20 for 1, to 16 for 1? Or is the frequency for the triple bars hit being inflated from 200 to 330.

What I'm getting at is....when you slice the payback on a slot progressive do you also have to change the payscale on the machine? If this is the case then slot progressive pros could protect themselves by recording the payscales on the machines.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
DRich
DRich
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December 16th, 2013 at 4:04:45 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

I think the question here is "How is the payback being changed?"

DRich, I take it you are in the casino business. When you change the payback percentage of a slot progressive, are you changing the payscale? Or are you changing the frequencies on jackpots? For instance, take a slot progressive that has triple bars on it. And let's say the frequency for triple bars is 200. And let's say the triple bars pay 20 for 1. This would mean triple bars represents 10% of the payback.

Now let's say this is a 92% overall payback progressive. But you want to slice the payback to 88%. Are you cutting the payback listed on the machine, 20 for 1, to 16 for 1? Or is the frequency for the triple bars hit being inflated from 200 to 330.

What I'm getting at is....when you slice the payback on a slot progressive do you also have to change the payscale on the machine? If this is the case then slot progressive pros could protect themselves by recording the payscales on the machines.



From the casinos perspective, each slot machine has a set of pre-approved percentages that gaming has verified on that program version. The most I remember seeing was a machine with about fifty different pay percentages. On slot machines it is almost always the winning symbol hit frequencies that change based on the percentage the casino chooses. Generally the pay tables wouldn't change based on the percentage change.

Typically, machines I design and program in Nevada have about eight different percentages available per title.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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December 16th, 2013 at 4:16:18 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

From the casinos perspective, each slot machine has a set of pre-approved percentages that gaming has verified on that program version. The most I remember seeing was a machine with about fifty different pay percentages. On slot machines it is almost always the winning symbol hit frequencies that change based on the percentage the casino chooses. Generally the pay tables wouldn't change based on the percentage change.

Typically, machines I design and program in Nevada have about eight different percentages available per title.



Thanks, DRich, for the answer. Recording the pay tables for future reference would not do any good.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
CrystalMath
CrystalMath
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December 16th, 2013 at 4:29:53 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

Thanks, DRich, for the answer. Recording the pay tables for future reference would not do any good.



I think it is still valuable info.

Also, there is no such thing as server based gaming in MT, and paytables are almost never changed, unless there was a problem discovered.

When I worked at GLI, I saw machines come in for analysis from the field, and they were often set with a paytable and unchanged for many years.
I heart Crystal Math.
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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December 16th, 2013 at 4:59:11 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

I think it is still valuable info. Also, there is no such thing as server based gaming in MT, and paytables are almost never changed, unless there was a problem discovered.When I worked at GLI, I saw machines come in for analysis from the field, and they were often set with a paytable and unchanged for many years.



Thanks for the tips, Crystal.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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December 26th, 2013 at 9:43:15 AM permalink
Quote: Jp

This question is concerning the $900 starting progressive jackpot on Outback Jack 2003-2006 version by aristocrat.

1. Is the progressive determined at the beginning of the cycle and is paid when the progressive gets to that number or is decided on each individual spin if the random number generator hits the say 1/100000 odd selection?

2. If it is per spin based, does betting 2x increase odds each spin then by 2x?

3. Also then as it increases to say $1,900, are the odds increased so machine pays more likely after it has played so long and obviously made a lot of money by then?

Thanks


These particular machines are in fact random to trigger the card feature. The card feature is bet proportional as all slot machines must. Basically ten $.30 bets would have an equal chance of triggering the cards as one $3 bet.
Once you have the cards, the only thing you, know per the rules, is there is a maximum number of kangaroos set to two, but there are not guaranteed two. Nothing is guaranteed as well but the $5 for 3 crocs. I can say this for a fact because I have personally seen all the cards picked and the minor or major wasn't won, multiple times.

In fact, cards are not equal once won. Usually bigger bets will have more jackpot OBJs as witnessed. Usually you can bank on knowing you are out of contention once a converter is picked immediately, on small bets, without first picking crocs. I have seen people win the majors on max bets with the same circumstance thanks to additional OBJs.

The most important thing to know about these machines, and most progressives, is higher jackpots are a strong, strong correlation going along with tighter payback settings. Machines set with looser paybacks will not get as high and will usually hit a lot closer to the reset amounts. I know this by experience, but the most useful experience was playing and observing these machines where they were guaranteed to be the loosest settings. It was much rarer there to even see the cards, but people won.
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the care taker. Hold my beer.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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December 26th, 2013 at 10:25:32 AM permalink
Ran out of room for text from phone, but wanted to clarify some more.

Knowing looser settings means lower average jackpots and the inverse, is just a rule of thumb and obviously there can be exceptions. Today almost anything can be done at will from changing metering to changing paybacks. One machine I believe defies my rule is Blazing Sevens, but I don't know if the program is connected historically with the meter. The whole problem is anything you think you know can change without you knowing it. They can make a lot of money taking assumptions and taking advantage of them.
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the care taker. Hold my beer.
bobbartop
bobbartop
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March 15th, 2016 at 9:41:15 PM permalink
I know this is an old thread but I am interested in this game. I've lurked on here for a long time but this is my first post. Be gentle.

At my local Indian casino there are about 20 Outback Jack machines. The meter rise on major and minor jackpots is 1% each. From my observation, the major jackpots are typically hit under $1100. Sure, once in awhile they go much higher, but my point is that these machines are probably set at a "loose" setting, as discussed in the post I am replying to, because they hit rather frequently. And the bank is played a lot, it's a popular game, and on weekends the place is packed.

Anyway, let me throw a question out. Assume that these are set "loose", does anyone have an opinion on when they might be positive EV? Once every few weeks I might see one at $1500. Twice I've seem them at $2100, but that was very rare.

The game is fun, if you can call playing something negative EV fun. It would be great if I really knew what made these tick, and at what level they were surely positive EV.

PS: For any Outback Jack junkies, I just want to say that I actually hit $500 on BIG ROCK, at a $1.50. lol So it can be done. I usually hate BIG ROCK, but that one I liked.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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March 15th, 2016 at 10:56:38 PM permalink
You friend is talking about must hit jackpot which reset on the first spin after the jackpot is awarded and are a predetermined amount once the previous one is hit/ I haven't seen that exact year version of outback jack but to the best of my recollection it is not a must hit so your friends theory would not be valid -


Mission- I think that should clarify what he is asking for you
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