Doubling up feature
How does doubling up feature work in slots and in video poker? Are cards dealt from single deck or from infinite number of decks? Are drawn cards put back into the pack for the next draw? And how is 50/50 chance guaranteed if cards are dealt from single deck and the draw card is not returned into the deck for the next draw? I have seen a variant of doubling up by betting on the color of the next card and after being dealt the card remains on the screen for the next draw. Have somebody seen repeating cards in such a situation? Repeating cards could mean cards are dealt from infinite number of decks. Or maybe, that is equally bad for APs, the next draw is independent from the previous one even made from single deck. It is hard to believe player can get an edge here, but one must keep on trying.
Quote: VPRookieMaybe this topic is discussed millions of times, but I am a complete idiot in Slots.
How does doubling up feature work in slots and in video poker? Are cards dealt from single deck or from infinite number of decks? Are drawn cards put back into the pack for the next draw? And how is 50/50 chance guaranteed if cards are dealt from single deck and the draw card is not returned into the deck for the next draw? I have seen a variant of doubling up by betting on the color of the next card and after being dealt the card remains on the screen for the next draw. Have somebody seen repeating cards in such a situation? Repeating cards could mean cards are dealt from infinite number of decks. Or maybe, that is equally bad for APs, the next draw is independent from the previous one even made from single deck. It is hard to believe player can get an edge here, but one must keep on trying.
1.) I'm going to guess single deck, but that could be wrong, my guess is based on the fact that I have never seen a repeat card on any game I have played when doubling up.
2.) Drawn cards would be put back into the pack for the next draw, otherwise, it'd be theoretically possible to continue doubling up until you run out of cards, which would be eleven or more double-ups.
3.) It would be 50/50 anyway, the, "Dealer's Card," still has no greater probability of being a high card compared to the one you pick. It doesn't matter if there are 52 cards left, or only five. The only thing that cards not being replaced could do is increase/decrease the likelihood of a push.
4.) I can't speak to that, I've never seen that Variant. Are you saying that card then acts as, "The Dealer's card," and you can decide whether or not to double-up again? Assuming a fair deck, and given that a Class II machine can do whatever it wants, you'd have a pretty nice advantage by choosing to double-up (or not) in that circumstance.
If it is an actual VP machine dealt from a fair deck, I should imagine you would win the hand, guess the color, look at the card, and double-up again on any card that is a seven or lower with an eight being optional. If you give me a paytable and game, I could probably calculate your advantage on that one.
Quote: Mission146
2.) Drawn cards would be put back into the pack for the next draw, otherwise, it'd be theoretically possible to continue doubling up until you run out of cards, which would be eleven or more double-ups.
4.) I can't speak to that, I've never seen that Variant. Are you saying that
2) Yes, it is theoretically possible to run out of cards in such a situation, but number of player’s doublings could be restricted.
4) Doubling up proceeds like that: player gambles his win on the color of the 1st dealt card. If he wins, he is offered to gamble on the next card without 1st card being replaced. One is allowed to double about 8-10 times. Yes, if it is a random game one could get a nice advantage.
This is a VP game, but the deck for doublings is separate from the main game deck. About randomness, unfortunately I can’t tell. The manufacturer is an Austrian company (I don’t know if it’s good to say its name). Do you know anything about randomness of VP games in Austria and in other European countries?
Apologies for my English.
If the card is a Seven:
(28/51) - (3/51 * 0) - (20/51) = 0.15686274509803927
If the card is a Six:
(32/51) - (3/51 * 0) - (16/51) = 0.3137254901960784
If the card is a Five:
(36/51) - (12/51) = 0.4705882352941177
If the card is a Four:
(40/51) - (8/51) = 0.6274509803921568
If the card is a Three:
(44/51) - (4/51) = 0.7843137254901962
If the card is a Two:
(48/51) = 0.9411764705882353
There are six advantageous situations, six situations in which you would not go for the second double, and one situation where it is neutral.
Your average advantage when there is an advantage is:
(0.9411764705882353 + 0.7843137254901962 + 0.6274509803921568 + 0.4705882352941177 + 0.3137254901960784 + 0.15686274509803927)/6 = 0.5490196078431373 per unit doubled.
Now, you will have an advantage 6/13 times, so:
0.5490196078431373 * 6/13 = 0.2533936651583711
However, you will only reach that point half of the time, so:
0.2533936651583711/2 = 0.12669683257918554 is your advantage, per initial unit bet, in the double-up round, assuming two double-ups.
The base return of the game would have to be terrible for the player to be at an overall disadvantage, or the game not random, what is the paytable? Furthermore, are there any specific winning hands upon which the player may not double?
Quote: Mission146
The base return of the game would have to be terrible for the player to be at an overall disadvantage, or the game not random, what is the paytable? Furthermore, are there any specific winning hands upon which the player may not double?
The payout is good, even too good to be true. This is a variant of joker poker 2 pair or better, but one has to match his bet if he wants to try to improve his initial hand (discarding some cards and replacing them with new ones). About doubling on any winning hand, I am not sure. I haven’t seen anyone hitting 5 of a kind or a royal. I just think doubling is allowed on any hand, but one can double fewer times, if he dares, on strong hands like 5 of a kind or a royal. There is a ceiling on winnings.
Would you calculate for me the probabilities for no win when trying to improve these hands (3 cards already discarded)?
-WJ;
-WQ;
-WK;
-WA.
I need this because the game is running a mini bonus when a pair of jacks or better is hit. Thus, I’ll know the exact expected values of above hands – a fine tuning in strategy.
Quote: VPRookieThe payout is good, even too good to be true. This is a variant of joker poker 2 pair or better, but one has to match his bet if he wants to try to improve his initial hand (discarding some cards and replacing them with new ones). About doubling on any winning hand, I am not sure. I haven’t seen anyone hitting 5 of a kind or a royal. I just think doubling is allowed on any hand, but one can double fewer times, if he dares, on strong hands like 5 of a kind or a royal. There is a ceiling on winnings.
Would you calculate for me the probabilities for no win when trying to improve these hands (3 cards already discarded)?
-WJ;
-WQ;
-WK;
-WA.
I need this because the game is running a mini bonus when a pair of jacks or better is hit. Thus, I’ll know the exact expected values of above hands – a fine tuning in strategy.
It seems that you are eating it on having to effectively double your bet if you wish to draw new cards, at all, so that is going to hurt the ER. Interestingly enough, it could be these favorable doubling Rules are necessary for you to even arrive at a game above 90%.
This is still not a specific paytable, by the way, which is going to be necessary to have any hope of determining a return. The other thing is that there is going to be an Optimal Strategy with respect to when to pay to draw new cards and when to surrender the additional bets.
Unfortunately, the determination of such an Optimal Strategy is WAY beyond my abilities. My suggestion is to post the actual paytable along with the rule variations concerning doubling, and then to PM JB and see if he wishes to analyze the game and Optimal Strategy. With a paytable (and no other rule variations) I could figure out the effect of the double rule change, but unfortunately, determining an Optimal Strategy for something like this is way outside of my abilities as it tends to involve a computer simulation of every possible hand.
Quote: Mission146It seems that you are eating it on having to effectively double your bet if you wish to draw new cards, at all, so that is going to hurt the ER.
Thanks for your attention.
BTW, I calculated strategy easily by using Wizard’ strategy maker for joker poker 2 pair or better with my pay table and then checked expected value for any specific hand using Wizard’s hand analyzer. Then I subtracted 1 from expectations to take into account the matched (doubled) bet. Any hand with negative expectation should not be doubled, but a new round should be started.
But the game is running a mini bonus when a pair of jacks or better is hit. When player’s final hand is such a pair, player’s matched (second) bet is added to the mini bonus pool. The mini bonus has a ceiling. When this ceiling is reached, the mini bonus can be won at random if hitting a pair of jacks or better. The game info says the bonus is won after a certain number of hits. Thus I evaluate 0.5 of player’s doubled bet is returned to him when his final hand is a pair of JB. So I need the frequencies for these hands when starting from a pair of JB and ending with no win. These frequencies multiplied by 0.5 and added to the already calculated expectations for pairs of JB by Wizard’s hand analyzer will get the final expected values for these hands. Thus I’ll be able to rank these hands higher in strategy. This is why I need the probabilities for the 4 wild pair hands (WJ; WQ; WK; WA) from my previous post; I think they could be calculated without the pay table. Just must be summed the probabilities for turning these hands into all possible winning hands (from 2 pair to a wild royal) and the sum must be subtracted from 1. The problem is there are too many possible combinations because of the wild. I calculated the probability for no win when trying to improve a pair (without a wild) to about 0.545. But it’s much easier.
BTW, I am a BJ player. But the conditions have deteriorated in my aria. Games are good, but half-shoed. And I am just a counter, not a tracker. So, I’m looking for new opportunities. I admit I’ve never played VP, but I have a grasp of the math. Of course, it’s a hard work to analyze a VP game manually without a computer simulation.
