Slots to avoid

I am fairly new to slots but between playing table games and when VP gets a bit boring I do enjoy playing a bit of slots. I have seen the Wizard state and also have read on these boards to stay away from the fancy games with big signs like sex in the city ,WOF and the likes because the casino has to pay for the rights to use the names and of course passes the expense along to the player. So couldn't you say the same about slots with a progressive payout? Those pay outs have to come from the players also. So should some one with a smallish bankroll avoid these machines also? I have read a lot of the threads about finding a +ER machine and don't think I will just stumble on one ,as I don't make many trips to Nevada. any thoughts? Hope Mission has time to respond.

Quote: mycran

I am fairly new to slots but between playing table games and when VP gets a bit boring I do enjoy playing a bit of slots. I have seen the Wizard state and also have read on these boards to stay away from the fancy games with big signs like sex in the city ,WOF and the likes because the casino has to pay for the rights to use the names and of course passes the expense along to the player. So couldn't you say the same about slots with a progressive payout? Those pay outs have to come from the players also. So should some one with a smallish bankroll avoid these machines also? I have read a lot of the threads about finding a +ER machine and don't think I will just stumble on one ,as I don't make many trips to Nevada. any thoughts? Hope Mission has time to respond.

Thanks for the compliment, I'm flattered that you'd look forward to my response, but there are much more knowledgeable people than me, here. AxelWolf and MickeyCrimm, both professional AP'ers who work slots into their repertoire, to name two.

In any case, if you look at a machine such as the QuickHits Platinum Black & White Sevens:

http://www.arcade-history.com/?n=black-and-white-sevens-quick-hit-platinum&page=detail&id=32113

You'll see that the minimum possible payout percentage is 88.05%, and I also have it straight from the horse's mouth (Bally Technologies Inc.) that this 88.05% minimum possible return does not include the amount that goes into the Progressives.

The other thing that I would say about Progressives is that, even if you don't necessarily know the game from a probability and ER standpoint, you could still accidentally stumble on a +ER situation, which is impossible with a flat-top machine not deliberately programmed at 100%+. Personally, I'd be inclined to look for a Progressive for just this reason.

Another thing you can do, lacking the probabilities for most machines, is to look at the smallest jackpot or two jackpots in a bank of the same stand-alone Progressives; if you see that the bottom jackpot on one is double/triple the bottom jackpot on another, or even better, if the bottom two jackpots are substantially higher than on the machine next to them, you're better off. You won't necessarily be at an advantage, but if you have a machine that has a bottom jackpot that starts at $15.00, for example, and it's up to $45, or so, you're probably going to be better off than the majority of flat-top machines of the same denomination in the House with that added ER. That won't always be true, but it should often be true.

The other thing about the Progressives is that the advantage/disadvantage only changes for the player, but from the casino's perspective, the House Edge is always the same. If you have a machine in which the Base Pays return 89% and there is a 1% contribution to the Progressive Return, the House makes 10% of everything that gets put in there whether you are playing at a 92% return or a 110% return. It's for that reason that the casinos don't really need to set the Progressive machines drastically lower than the flat-tops, because it's still a fixed percentage in the long run either way.

On the other hand, if bankroll & machine time are going to be your primary considerations, then you might stay away from the Progressives as many will require a Max Bet in order to have a chance of winning the Progressive, and those that don't still have a higher minimum bet than many other machines. You could bet as little as $0.01/spin on many American Original machines, just to give you one extreme example, so obviously that would give you the best time at machine.

In terms of denomination selection, if you are going to choose to play a flat-top, decide what you would want your most expensive bet to be and pick the highest denomination with which you could bet that amount and Max Bet. The higher denomination machines generally have a better overall return percentage, so that's a consideration, if you're not going to be playing Progressives.

I ran across a video not too long ago on youtube on how to get an advantage on a few machines. According to my notes,

Quick Strike machine play when near $500 progressive payout.
Rock around the clock Play this machine when the clock is between 7 and 8
Blazing 7's 3 coin. Play 2 coins. No advantage to playing 3rd coin.

Quote: wroberson

I ran across a video not too long ago on youtube on how to get an advantage on a few machines. According to my notes,

Quick Strike machine play when near $500 progressive payout.
Rock around the clock Play this machine when the clock is between 7 and 8
Blazing 7's 3 coin. Play 2 coins. No advantage to playing 3rd coin.

It's is pretty hard to gain an advantage on slots thees days. competition is high and machines are few. Most guys have a route they follow looking for bonus games and quick hits. (they know every bonus game possible) I find that most Blazing sevens machines are progressives in order to hit the progressive meter you must play 3 coins.

I think the first step is to get totally and completely away from the Mega-Resort casinos and The Strip in general.

You want to be at a vanilla local casino. Not much in the way of frills and pretty much no tourists.

These are the casinos that focus on a neighborhood and giving value because their customers sure don't come there for the ambiance.

Then you avoid the glitzy machines and stick to the barely noticeable ones that have minimal graphics.

I think he would need to make it more clear how much his Bank Roll is and what his goals are. I'm sensing he wants to try some slots for fun, but dose not want to be a complete sucker while doing so. He probably wants to know... what machines he should play if hes going to play anyways. If this is the case we would still need more information. What kind of Bank roll is he working with? How long dose he wish to play on the slots.

Finding slots with an advantage IS WORK. I would compare it to using a metal detector. You walk around searching and searching finding absolutely nothing, so you got to keep moving(if you know what your looking for it goes a lot faster,also you know where to look). Just because the view is nice, you can't just stay in that one spot. Sometimes you find something and you make a score, but few and far between. Sometimes you find something good, but still lose money.

If your looking to just have fun, there are some over 98% 1$ slots around use a slot card and receive some comps and offers.

Perhaps find an online casino offering a 100-200% slot buy in bonus with LOW wagering requirements.

We are going for 3 days end of Oct. My bankroll for slots is $300-$500. We do prefer smaller less busy casinos some may say dives but we like them. We play at the local Indian casinos and the few years we have been I have never seen the Quick strike machines that hit by $500 over $400. The ones that hit by $200 rarely over $150. I always suspect ,without any proof of course ,that they reset these machines without them being hit. But I still keep looking. My goals are to just have fun and not burn through my BR to fast. I doubt I will have time to hunt much but part of my enjoyment is looking at all the crazies out there. Thanks for all the good information. They do have a slot rebate at one of the casinos we will be visiting but they pay back over 3 days so we may miss out on the last day and it only stays on your account for 90 days but still thinking about that one.

Quote: wroberson

I ran across a video not too long ago on youtube on how to get an advantage on a few machines. According to my notes,

Quick Strike machine play when near $500 progressive payout.
Rock around the clock Play this machine when the clock is between 7 and 8
Blazing 7's 3 coin. Play 2 coins. No advantage to playing 3rd coin.

I don't know who said that about Rock Around the Clock, but I tend to disagree. This is just based on Empirical play, because I have no hard numbers for it, but I'd want to see 9:00, and 8:00, at worst. The base return for that game is awful.

If you're just playing for fun, I would suggest keeping your bets as low as possible, preferably less than 50 cents per spin.

Slots are not skill games, but it is helpful to know whether a particular slot requires a max bet to obtain the best return percentage. If you're betting low, those are the machines you want to avoid, and the only way to know for sure is to examine the pay schedule and/or help screens.

My favorite place to play slots is on Facebook, because they have the same games you'll find in the casinos, and they're free. I believe you can find IGT slots at DoubleDown or High 5. You can find WMS slots at Jackpot Party or Lucky Cruise. If you run out of free chips, just switch to a different Facebook casino until the time elapses, and then you can return for another allotment of free chips.

YouTube is an excellent resource to observe actual play, especially if you want to see what happens during the bonus rounds.

Quote: AxelWolf

Finding slots with an advantage IS WORK. I would compare it to using a metal detector. You walk around searching and searching finding absolutely nothing, so you got to keep moving(if you know what your looking for it goes a lot faster,also you know where to look). Just because the view is nice, you can't just stay in that one spot. Sometimes you find something and you make a score, but few and far between. Sometimes you find something good, but still lose money.

That's absolutely right, and an incredibly astute analogy. If you look at Wheeling Island, the first thing I would do is walk in the main entrance and look at the big boards for the $0.05 Quick Hits machines. The thing about those being that it is a linked Progressive of sixteen machines, so I'm also going to make sure nobody else is playing (even if it is any good, which is almost never the case) or if someone else is playing, make sure they aren't Max Betting.

Okay, so I get that done, and we're going to make a left turn towards the non-smoking compass room. I don't know anything about the MegaBucks or the Spin-A-Ball whatever-it's-called, so I don't care what those are doing. I'll glance left and see if we have a Rock Around the Clock at, past or close to 9:00. Probably not. That's about one out of ten trips.

I'm going to go over to the right a little bit and check out both sides of the six-bank of Quick Hits Platinum stand-alone Progressives. I've such experience (not bragging, just making a statement) that I can glance at the QHP and get within 1% on the overall increase to ER from those Progressives. I think people are starting to wise up, or maybe there's a full-time individual or team there now, because I almost never see those at an advantageous point anymore.

There are some $0.25/Progressives scattered between the QHP machines and the Compass Room, standard looking machines, straight probability stuff there...but I have no idea what the probabilities are, so I don't mess with them.

I'm going to go into the Compass Room and head straight for the back where there is a bank of unlinked QHP and another bank of Quick Hits Diamond, I want to say five machines per bank and they are right next to one another. I assume the QHP probabilities of the Progressives for the QHD, even though I probably shouldn't, doesn't matter, though, because based on that, I've never seen QHD at an advantage. I've seen QHP's at an advantage back there, but it's rare, because the Non-Smoking Compass Room doesn't necessarily see a lot of action...

There's nothing else back there even worth a look. Beside the QHP bank, there is a linked multi-Progressive where you would get Bonus Games by matching at least three Bonus Games symbol and each reel represents a different Bonus Game. I don't remember what it's called, Super-Hot Blazing Fiery Scorching Supernova Burn-Your-Ass whatever...either way I don't know what the probabilities are, so not interested.

Now we're leaving there and we're going back towards those $0.05 QHP, and as we approach those, we make a left and head out to the main floor. The first thing we're going to notice is Sex & The City, but my assumption is the base return is so poor it just doesn't f***ing matter what the Progressives are doing.

Going down that aisle, and on the left, we have a few $0.01/Progressives, $0.02/Progressives or $0.05/Progressives, but I don't know the probabilities for a single one of them. Some of them are linked Progressives, the $0.02 ones are, for sure. There are two games over there I'll play without knowing the probabilities, and those are Sun King and Moon Goddess, the main reason is that you can qualify for the Progressives with only a $0.30 bet AND it's not at all unusual to see the Progressives at a really high point. I still don't know the probabilities, which sucks, but my understanding is that there is currently a Sun King machine upon which the starting Mini Progressive is $15.00 currently sitting at $145.00. Further, all of the other Progressives on that are higher than the other machines of its kind...every single one of them. The only reason I don't make a special trip/play out of that is because I don't know the probabilities.

In the middle of the casino, one can find some of the WMS must-hit machines, the cowboy guy one and the King-Somebody one. I don't think I've ever seen any of those at an advantage. The closest I have ever come is the $25-50 at $45.xx, but the Major must have just hit because it was only about $1.00 over Base Return.

If you go all the way to the right, there's some sort of Progressive game in which you hit Free Games and a bunch of horses come up in the Bonus Games and the first horse to finish is what prize you get. I don't know the probabilities, and I don't know the advantage points, so I never play that. In the same area is some kind of machine in which, when you hit for the Progressive, something happens and it keeps rising up to seven or nine different Progressives, it might be a separate touch screen choice from the main game...I don't remember anything about it as I only played it once to see what it does...

Also in that area of the casino are some Hee-Haw machines, now Hee-Haw works almost identically to Quick Hits, and I half tend to wonder if the Progressive probabilities are about the same, the starting points certainly are. My general rule of thumb for playing those is, if based on the Progressives it would be 105%+ on a Quick Hits Platinum machine, then I'll play one of those.

If you hadn't made that right back just passed the Sun King machine, then you could have made a left and there is another set of machines somewhat similar to Quick Hits Platinum. I don't even remember what they're called, I don't think I have ever even really seen anyone play them. I played one because it would have been 105%+ based on the QHP probabilities, it has something to do with a mine and a gold wagon, and there are a couple other themes.

OH! I forgot the Dynamite Blast Progressives, mainly because I don't know anything about them, but you can qualify for the Progressive with a minimum bet. Those are before the WMS Must-Hit machines, kind of in the middle, but they face the wall to your left if you're coming from the Main Entrance.

If you were to continue heading towards the back of the casino as opposed to going to the right, then there is a Must-Hit game with Chinese Symbols, except the Progressive is either $400-$500 or maybe even $450-$500, I've never seen that at an advantage. There is also some kind of progressive with chocolate bars and different candy (and similar games with a different theme) upon which there are five different Progressives based upon how much candy you get, or something like that. I don't know anything about it, so I don't play.

Now comes the fun part!

VIDEO KENO!!!

Okay, so there are about 28-32 Spielo G2 machines, (There's also a LINKED Triple-Diamond $0.25 Max $0.75 Progressive right there that always sucks) anyhow, this is where your long-shot comes into play. These machines have three games: Lucky Bells Keno, Frost & Fire Keno, Big Catch Keno upon which there is a Progressive win for matching x balls out of 7-10 picked. It's a long-shot, but it's a quantifiable long-shot. I tend to assume a base return of about 88% before the Progressives, and then you just add in the Expected Value of whatever the Progressive is.

The fascinating thing about these machines is that you only have to bet $0.50 to qualify for the Progressive, and the Progressive doesn't change regardless of if you bet more than $0.50, or not, so always bet $0.50!!! Now, you have three games and two denominations ($0.05 & $0.25) for a grand total of about six active Progressives per machine, so about 168-192 total Progressives. The best part is that you get to go from machine-to-machine and look at these things all one-by-one. Again, you would simply figure out the additional contribution to the return based on the Progressive amount. Big Catch and Lucky Bells don't have any Free Games, so the probability is just standard Keno probability...Frost & Fire does have Free Games, but the Frost Bonus is a 1st & 2nd number match while the Fire Bonus is a 18th, 19th AND 20th number match. Neither set of Free Games is terribly likely, so I just use base Keno probabilities in determining the return of that Progressive.

There aren't many slot machines on that side, there's a bank of Video Keno called King Midas, which is the same as Cleopatra Keno, except Midas is a King. There are also a bunch of other games on that bank exactly the same as other Keno games, but with different names. It's a weird machine for a number of reasons, I'm not getting into it.

There's a bank of six or eight with Top-Bottom Keno, Four-Card and some other idiotic games.

There's a bank of twelve Game Kings with Cleopatra, Caveman and some others on it. No progressives anywhere on that bank.

There's also a pathway from the cage to the main area of the casino with some slot machines in there, including a flat-top $0.01/denom Quick Hits machine on the end of that hallway towards the casino. There are no Progressives there, though, you'd have a better chance of winning money from the cigarette machine on the right!!!

Although, I must admit that the flat-top Quick Hits is kind of fun. You can bet as little as $0.01 and the payout is perfectly-graduated all the way, which means that you could bet $0.01, $2.00, or anything in between and it does not affect your return. If you can't find any machines at an advantage, I use that game as a fun little time killer, either that or Fireball Keno. I wish they'd have made Fireball a Progressive, somehow, that's my favorite Keno game of all time.

Why? You didn't ask, but I'll tell you. I love Fireball Keno because if you match the last number on a winning combination you get five Free Games that draw 25 balls instead of the usual twenty. The last five balls appear as, "Fireballs," that start at the top of the screen, one-at-a-time (so you can immediately tell if it is the right column) and coast down the screen at your numbers. I enjoy the Bonus Games because they are not terribly time-consuming (nothing pisses me off more than going twelve games on Cleopatra to win NOTHING) and if you have a five/seven or seven/ten match going before the Fireballs, that can get pretty exciting.

It's just a really fun game, in my opinion. The ER is horrible. Friggin' sue me. I would say that Quick Hits and Fireball Keno are probably the only two games I play for the pure entertainment value, with the exception of Bonus Super Keno and Table Games, but Bonus Super Keno is found at the parlors, and I only go to the parlors for free cappuccino and snacks only putting $5.00 into those machines in any one visit.

In terms of Table Games, I used to enjoy Blackjack, but I really don't anymore. Of the games I do enjoy that they have there are Craps, Roulette and Let It Ride. They have Mississippi Stud there, and I absolutely LOVE Mississippi Stud on the WoO game and play perfectly, but I won't play it for real $$$ because the Variance is absolutely sick. I like Craps, $75-$100 and you've got a pretty good shot of lasting a couple hours...betting as cheaply as I do!!! I just like getting to shoot the dice, win money for people (if Variance smiles upon me) and tipping the dealers really well. It's just a good time.

I found a $1coin dropper machine in Blackhawk that looked to have a 127.62% payback. I ran $20 to $146 when I decided to cash out
Imagine my surprise as it paid off in Chicken McNuggets. GRRRRRRRRR

good read as always Mission. What is your minimum Bankroll you like to have on one of your outings? If you don't mind me asking. The wife plays video keno and she said she will have to look for the fireball one now.

Quote: mycran

good read as always Mission. What is your minimum Bankroll you like to have on one of your outings? If you don't mind me asking. The wife plays video keno and she said she will have to look for the fireball one now.

Thanks!

My typical bankroll is usually insufficient to seriously pursue most Progressives, but then, I'm not an Advantage Player professionally. However, the concept of, "Sessions," is an arbitrary and artificial construct, so even under-bankrolled, as long as you only play certain machines at an advantage, you'll be at 100%+ ER on those machines in the long run. My minimum bankroll, thus, is whatever my budget for that happens to be at the time.

If we're talking about disadvantageous games, then $5.00-$10.00 for those parlor Keno games and probably $10-$20 for Fireball Keno.

If one were to pursue these games seriously, then you would probably look at the known probabilities and:

Rock Around the Clock: It's a known Bonus, and pretty cheap to get to the Bonus Games. You would pretty much just use whatever the maximum would be to reach the Bonus Games, assuming you lost every single spin.

Quick Hits Platinum: This one depends on where the advantage is, or if it is spread out among Progressives. I would typically want to look to have enough money to get the type of coin-in to give me a 75% probability of hitting the highest of the contributing Progressives (i.e. 5QH, 6QH or 7QH). Of course, if a lower Progressive hits dropping you under 100%ER, you stop.

Video Keno: Again, at least enough cash to have a 75% probability of hitting the Progressive.

I mean, the whole thing is just sick!!! Consider a professional slot advantage player, rarely (but possibly) dropping $5,000-$10,000 to chase a Progressive worth about $500 all because he is at 103% ER. Sick life! They definitely have my respect, I couldn't take the stress. I win or lose and don't care that much either way.

Quote: mycran

We are going for 3 days end of Oct. My bankroll for slots is $300-$500. We do prefer smaller less busy casinos some may say dives but we like them. We play at the local Indian casinos and the few years we have been I have never seen the Quick strike machines that hit by $500 over $400. The ones that hit by $200 rarely over $150. I always suspect ,without any proof of course ,that they reset these machines without them being hit. But I still keep looking. My goals are to just have fun and not burn through my BR to fast. I doubt I will have time to hunt much but part of my enjoyment is looking at all the crazies out there. Thanks for all the good information. They do have a slot rebate at one of the casinos we will be visiting but they pay back over 3 days so we may miss out on the last day and it only stays on your account for 90 days but still thinking about that one.

That's not a bad bankroll for many games, it can give you a good run at some of the Progressives that don't necessarily require a Max bet, Must-Hits, if you can find an advantageous one. I would be reluctant to pursue a Progressive on QHP with that sort of bankroll, because I've seen a $1.50/spin QHP machine cause $500 to disappear within an hour, hour-and-a-half, in some cases. If you don't hit for the Progressives or Bonus Games for a bit, the Base Pays aren't going to save you, that much I can promise.

If you really want to look for something, like I said, try to find those Keno Progressives for which you only need to bet $.50. $500 should last you at least seven-eight cumulative hours at Keno, unless Lady Variance really kicks you in the teeth. If you like people-watching, and aren't on a linked Progressive, you can also do that to facilitate slow playing.

Other than those, basically just what I said earlier. The $0.25/denoms tend to be simple games, though, if the $0.01 slots are the only ones you find entertaining, then just take the time (if not Max Betting) to make sure it's a perfectly-graduated payout.

I'm leaving for Vegas a week from Monday. Also have a trip 12/10.

I'll have about 800-1000 bankroll that I have to make last. I only plan on playing slot machines if I can get a couple of winning shoes at the blackjack table. I can't telegraph my exact gambling plans other than playing blackjack. I would like to earn a new tier level at TR by March, and that's another 3774 credits.

I like the Quick Hit machines, but the last time I played one at Hollywood Casino I hit 25 bonus spins a 3x and won 8 bucks. I'm pretty sure I was max bet as this was near the end of a 22 day roulette winning streak. I was not happy the machine was empty. I would have to think about this one.

I think one thing about slots that people forget is there is an expected percentage returned to players, and also an expected loss per hour. If you are playing 25 cents on a machine it might return 93%. But if you play 50 cents per play it might return 95%. But clearly the expected loss per hour is going to be much higher if you play more money. I hear a lot of people say it is stupid not to play max coins on a slot machine. That thinking makes the casino very happy.

Quote: FleaStiff

Then you avoid the glitzy machines and stick to the barely noticeable ones that have minimal graphics.

Bor-ing!

Quote: pacomartin

I hear a lot of people say it is stupid not to play max coins on a slot machine. That thinking makes the casino very happy.

Especially when many new progressive games have the same payback for any denomination.