Why 'max bet' on G+ Deluxe machines?

These machines come in different names and 'Must Pay' amounts but the premise is the same. It must payout by that stated amount.

From another thread, it's +EV to play at $49/$490 for $50/$500 must pay amounts.

On a 1cent machine, the minimum coin-in is 50cents and the max is $2.50.
Note: The progressive only goes up when you WIN, not by coin-in.

I saw a non-linked machine at around $48.50 w/some old lady on it.
by the color of her players card, i knew she wasnt going to leave the machine till it hit. but i stood there for 30min watching just to see how the jackpot being hit.
(i had to wait an hr anyway to get a Ravens playoff freeplay promo added to my card. It would be added an hr after the game ended.)

She went from $20 to $80 at min bet then lost it all. Popped in a $10, went up to $30 and lost it all. Popped in a $20, went to $60 and hit the progressive at like $49.12.

As far as i can tell, There is no bonus for max betting. the payout is linear. play at max bet and the payout should be 5x the min.

Is there any reason to play at Max coin-in?

It seems not though that is contrary to most slot machines.

I have hit both the minor and the major progressives on these machines and I never bet max, never more than $1.

The only reason I can see for playing max bet is that since the progressive meter increases only by win amounts, your win amount will be higher if your bet is higher, which will increase the progressive meter more rapidly.

The downside is that these machines are very volatile, with lots and lots of non-winning spins or very small wins, even at max bet, so you can get the progressive and yet end up spending more than you ultimately win. Altho, for some people, myself included, it's more the idea of winning a jackpot, not how much it is.

I believe these games trigger when the progressive gets to a certain amount. By betting max you are 5x more likely to be the player that causes it to trigger.

It really depends on the version of the G+ -- some of those pennies go up to $3 for max bet.

From my experience in both the Vampire game and the Napoleon game, you want to bet the MAX bet since the bonus round can be so large, it triggers the jackpot. You have to keep in mind two things: (a) multiple returns are now possible on a chip, i.e. better returns for higher wagers, and (b) these games are so top-heavy, the slot machine really need to reward those players that bet the MAX, otherwise no one would be the MAX.

Here is WMS' website http://www.wms.com/games/video/gplusdeluxe/pages/default.aspx or http://www.wms.com/Games/Video/gplusdeluxe5x4/Pages/default.aspx

From my experience, Sea Tales and Pirate Ship does NOT follow the Max bet strategy due to low multiples on the Bonus Rounds.

Btw, Bier Haus is one the better games WMS designed with its fake Octofest theme -- mostly due to the sticky wilds.

The other thing to consider on all of these newer machines is that they are probably set very close to the minimum hold by state (83-85%). So you really need to get lucky to win, even at a jackpot close to the Must Hit By number.

Quote: DRich

I believe these games trigger when the progressive gets to a certain amount. By betting max you are 5x more likely to be the player that causes it to trigger.

That's true if it is a linked Progressive, if it is a stand-alone Progressive, then it's irrelevant.

I usually bet max on these machines when I play them. In those scenarios, I'm just looking to win the progressive as fast as possible and move on. Since the size of the win impacts the speed of the meter, this occurs faster at higher bet amounts.

Quote: Boz

The other thing to consider on all of these newer machines is that they are probably set very close to the minimum hold by state (83-85%). So you really need to get lucky to win, even at a jackpot close to the Must Hit By number.

I'd be surprised if they were that low, as they are not licensed machines. Furthermore, the Jackpots (and highest Line Pays) relative to the amount bet are somewhat small compared to many other machines with comparable betting levels, and with respect to ER, you usually pay for the possibility of hugely positive variance.

Strategy

If we assume that the Base Pays are perfectly graduated, then my general strategy would be to Minimum Bet when I am in positive ER territory because I am looking to make my $$$ on the Progressives and not on the Base Payouts. I really don't want the Variance of Max Betting because the formula I used to determine those advantage points is very much based on the Base ER's., because that is the case, I actually want to stay as close as I can to the Base ER's, "Playing not to lose," as it were. If you are minimum betting and the theoretical ER is the same, then what you are hoping to do is theoretically get more spins in there for the same amount of cash because the Base Returns, by necessity, are always -ER in and of themselves.

If I am playing these machines at a disadvantage, and I wouldn't be because I don't like how volatile they are, then I would probably want to Max Bet anyway because when you are playing at x < 100% ER, you're basically hoping for positive Variance to take over in order to result in any kind of a win. If I'm praying to Lady Variance for salvation, anyway, I might as well get a lot of it! Again, that's just because I don't like the game. Given perfectly graduated payout structures, I typically don't Max Bet at Video Keno, but that's because I like Video Keno, know I am at a disadvantage, and just want to play for awhile. I'll usually bet at the lowest possible level that gives me the same probability of pulling in $100 (Numbers needed to hit) on any one card.

Larger bets decrease the time needed to hit the payout. They don't change your total expected return on the machine when playing in a +EV situation, but your hourly rate will increase if you bet larger, since you're at the machine for less time.

Quote: sabre

Larger bets decrease the time needed to hit the payout. They don't change your total expected return on the machine when playing in a +EV situation, but your hourly rate will increase if you bet larger, since you're at the machine for less time.

I agree with that, but I'm speaking in terms of Probabilities and Variance.

Basically, Variance works two ways, which are positively and negatively. In this case, I know what $$$ amount the machine must hit by and I am using an (assumed) expected return from the machine to generate how much actual $$$ I would have to put into the machine based on how much coin-in (total amount in bets) that I have to make in order to reach the guaranteed, 'Must-Hit," point based on the assumed EV.

For the purposes of this discussion, we're going to assume that the machine reaches the, "Must hit," point:

If we make this assumption, then the goal is to reach the, "Must Hit," point, have it hit, and pull down a profit overall which is what +ER represents in this scenario. Given that this is the case, if we Max Bet and experience positive Variance (the Progressive hitting well before the, "Must-Hit" point or having wins in excess of the ER at the time it does hit), then we are generally going to see more of a profit than we would have by Minimum Betting simply by virtue of the Base Wins being multiplied by the amount bet in one fashion or another. On the other hand, if we experience negative Variance, then the Progressive will hit at or closer to the, "Must Win," point AND by the time it does, we will have achieved total Base Pays wins at less than the ER on the Base Pays.

You will reduce the theoretical Variance by betting the minimum because the longer you play, then the closer you should end up to the ER on the Base Game. This is because if you have a set of positive spins or a, "Good run," you will win less, but you will also lose less on a set of negative spins or a, "Bad run." Much like with a Table Game, Video Poker or anything else, the more times that you play, the closer you should end up to the ER.

Thus, my strategy is premised on the fact that I do not expect to profit on the ER of the Base Game, but rather, I expect to profit once I hit the Progressive. If you Max Bet, then Variance gives you a chance of having an even bigger profit when you do eventually hit the Progressive, but at the same time, if also gives you a better chance of finally hitting the Progressive at a loss if you fail to meet the ER. The Minimum Bet reduces this risk by increasing the liklihood that given x number of spins you will come closer to approaching the Base ER.

This is all premised upon a perfectly graduated payout schedule and equally likely Bonus Games as well as no difference in the overall probability of hitting the Progressive. (IOW, the Progressive Probability not changing with respect to the amount bet)

Quote: Mission146

That's true if it is a linked Progressive, if it is a stand-alone Progressive, then it's irrelevant.

I disagree. There has to be a time element. If you have nothing better to do and waste 3 hours of your life because you feel time is irrelevant, then go right ahead.

I walk away from some many Positive EV situations because the hourly win rate was less than picking up cans or bottles on the street.

Quote: sabre

Larger bets decrease the time needed to hit the payout. They don't change your total expected return on the machine when playing in a +EV situation, but your hourly rate will increase if you bet larger, since you're at the machine for less time.

People don't have access to the chip, but I wouldn't be surprised if the WMS did in fact load numerous paybacks on that same chips, i.e. the paybacks are based on the amount wagered, respectively. Therefore, your total expected return DOES CHANGE as the ceterus paribus condition is no longer valid when going from min bet to max bet, respectively.

sabre, do me a favor and go troll somewhere else.

Quote: Ardent1

People don't have access to the chip, but I wouldn't be surprised if the WMS did in fact load numerous paybacks on that same chips, i.e. the paybacks are based on the amount wagered, respectively. Therefore, your total expected return DOES CHANGE as the ceterus paribus condition is no longer valid when going from min bet to max bet, respectively.

sabre, do me a favor and go troll somewhere else.

Why don't you do the world a favor and when you say someone is an idiot and then you get proven mathematically wrong, that you become more reluctant to call everyone an idiot so casually. Thanks.

And while we're at it, why don't you respond to said calling out?

Quote: Ardent1

I disagree. There has to be a time element. If you have nothing better to do and waste 3 hours of your life because you feel time is irrelevant, then go right ahead.

I walk away from some many Positive EV situations because the hourly win rate was less than picking up cans or bottles on the street.

I understand your disagreement, and in your case, I agree. It seems that you are a professional AP, though, where I mostly go to the casino for entertainment value...but at the same time, see no good reason to take a walk from a +ER situation. In my case, then, I'm not terribly concerned about sitting there for three hours chasing a Progressive at +ER simply because I'm there to play.

Quote: Ardent1

I disagree. There has to be a time element. If you have nothing better to do and waste 3 hours of your life because you feel time is irrelevant, then go right ahead.

I also meant my statement with respect to the probability of the Progressive hitting. DRich mentioned, "Being more likely to be the player that causes the trigger..." which tells me that he was referring to a linked Progressive because, if it is stand-alone, then being the only one playing you are, by necessity, the only one that could possibly hit the Progressive.

IOW, I wasn't saying that you're less likely to hit it faster if you Max Bet, that would be an absurd statement for me to make, I was saying that if you are the only player that can hit the Progressive, from a probability standpoint, (unless there is something about these machines---other than meter increase---that give you a higher probability of winning with a Max Bet) it makes no difference how you bet.