Rock Around the Clock

Threads: 26
Posts: 1137

Joined: Dec 10, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 6:50:52 PM permalink

I hit up this unit a lot, so a few thoughts...

First off, there's at least three generations of this unit that, at a glance, look similar-- a 5-reel model that gives a shot at each progressive and has an older look to it, the one described here, and a newer (?) version that has a car theme and a multiplier to Bonus Time. Generally speaking, info is true for each.

(Text from the parent post is marked in spoiler tags, while personal additions are beneath.)

Quote: Mission146
Machine-Rock Around the Clock (Advantage Revolution) 3-Reel

Advantage

The Advantage to this game is that you know when a Bonus Game absolutely MUST occur, and you know EXACTLY how long (at most) it's going to take you to reach the Bonus Game, which will enable you to determine exactly how much $$$ you're going to need to run through to hit the bonus.

There is a, "Bonus Clock," on the top of the machine that indicates when you are going to hit the Bonus Game, which is at 12:00. There are four spots in between the different hours (which also have a spot) and there are five what I will term 'notches,' on the only hand of the clock which will move you to the next spot after they have all been filled. Each bet fills a notch.

For example, if your clock is exactly at 9:00 and you have no notches filled, then there will be 15 spots until you reach 12:00 and you must fill 5 notches to be guaranteed to move a spot. In this case, if the minimum bet is $0.50 (it was) you will play a maximum of 15 * 5 * .50 = $37.50 in order to make it to the 12:00.

The clock can also be bumped forward randomly, from a minimum of 1 hour/whatever's left, to, what I've seen, 6 hours. The 2nd generation appears to have the most bumps.

Is there an advantage to Max Betting?

It seems that the base payouts are perfectly graduated, so I'm going to say there is no advantage to Max Betting unless you are close to the Bonus Games. I did not Max Bet at any point, but the second time I was reasonably close to a Bonus Game, I upped my bet to $1.00 and there is quite clearly more results that lead you to the game that results in one of the Progressive Jackpots the more that you bet. More on that later.

On the 2nd gen units, I've seen each spin go from 50/75/[something]/150/275, for 1x to 10x. This is because you're paying 25 per spin, plus 25 for the Bonus. There is no change in the size of the wins from the bonus that's visible. (I've had wins from 40c to ~120$ from doing straight minimum bets.)

Effectively, there's a slight benefit from larger bets, but it's minor and not worth it unless you're NOT bonus chasing like anybody else. (Example: Mixed bars give a base of 10. That's 20% of minimum, or 26.6% of the second bet, up to 36.36% of max.)

The Bonus Games

The first bonus game is called, "Shakin' and Reelin'," for which I found the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOfJ21I4gqY

The way that this game works is that there is another clock hand along with two horizontal-running reels (one top and one bottom) that have results run across them. In this game, some of the results are, "Collect," while some of the results are "Jukebox Jackpot," and the other results are a Credits award and the game continuing.

On both occasions that I hit the Bonus Game, it was Shakin' and Reelin'.

I did not hit for the, "Jukebox Jackpot," the first time that I played the game, but I did notice that when I was betting the Minimum Jukebox Jackpot ran alone on the reels while there were often three of them in a row when I had bet $1.00, and I did hit it that time.

The second game is just immediately going to, "Jukebox Jackpot," and here is a video of that I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCf79SyXVHw

Basically, in order to win any of the Progressives, you have to ultimately reach Jukebox Jackpot. Jukebox Jackpot gives you three albums to choose from, and each album correlates to a combination of colors which are indicative of the Progressive that will be won if you land on that color. After the colors have been established, the spinner simply lands on one of the spots and that is what you get.

The 3rd generation has additional bonuses, plus alternative tiers of them (or maybe just Jukebox Jackpot). The "advanced" tier of Jukebox Jackpot has considerably more big progressives. In my case, the smallest progressive was eliminated entirely.

Shakin' and Reeling can continue for quite a while... or end immediately. If it collects on the very first spin, you get a consolation 5$, which is approximately equal to the smallest progressive. Otherwise, you get whatever you get. (Which I've seen range from 40 cents to ~120$, whereupon the woman got Jukebox Jackpot.)

Conclusion

This machine may be worth playing at an advantage if you are close enough to the Bonus Time. If anyone else has played this machine and has anything else to offer, that would be appreciated, of course. Unfortunately, I am nowhere near having determined an advantage point for this machine.

I assume there is an Advantage Point however because:

1.) It is a Progressive, so there is always an advantage point at some point.

AND

2.) The hit rate and base pays, admittedly on a very small sample size, are simply so horrendous that the ER of the Bonus Time simply must be well over 100% of the spin(s)---at a certain point---that it takes to get there, or there is almost no way this machine could be paying back at jurisdictional minimums.

I second this. It can feel downright nasty to play at times, but if you don't mind vulturing, it can be pretty nice. At a rough guess, I estimate it costs ~5$ per hour remaining on the clock and use that as a baseline. I'd highly recommend not touching any unit that isn't advanced to at LEAST 6 o'clock.

Notes on Generational Differences
(Based on personal observation of units; there may be other variations as well.)

1st gen: 5 reels, a much older look to it as a whole. There's a freespin game with expanding wilds if you get 3 scattered bonuses. The Jukebox Jackpot is a wheel spin for EACH progressive with decreased odds with higher progressives. Base progressive is lower than 2nd gen. (Only seen at Valley View, in the Temecula region near SD, CA.)

2nd gen: The game discussed by the parent, is an Ad-Vantage Revolution unit; the Jukebox Jackpot is a SINGLE wheel with different segments worth different progressives. I've seen it range from 0 to 5 spaces being worth minimum and 1-4 spaces being worth maximum, with varying numbers in between. Base progressives are usually 5/20/100/800?. This is, by far, the most common unit.

3rd gen: Largely the same as the second. The Bonus Time event tends to have smaller rewards, but there's a bonus multiplier that I've seen vary from 1x-5x. Progressive also has lower minimums than 2nd gen. Additional Bonus Time events. Seems to give much fewer "bumps" on the clock. Does NOT have the basebet+25 effect that 2nd gen has (as far as I can recall). Only seen one unit at The D (I think) and 4 units near the parking garage of South Point.

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 7:29:53 PM permalink

Venthus,

First of all, let me thank you for this excellent and EXTREMELY informative post. The informaton that you have provided has, in all liklihood, saved me a S***load of money, because I would otherwise have had to figure this bad boy out at -ER.

I've never seen the other versions of this game, so my reply will be restricted to the version in the OP.

Quote: Venthus

The clock can also be bumped forward randomly, from a minimum of 1 hour/whatever's left, to, what I've seen, 6 hours. The 2nd generation appears to have the most bumps.

It would be difficult, at best, to ever compute the liklihood of the random bumps. Therefore, I would encourage anyone playing this machine to approach it, for Maximum ER, under the assumption that the random bumps will not happen.

Quote:
On the 2nd gen units, I've seen each spin go from 50/75/[something]/150/275, for 1x to 10x. This is because you're paying 25 per spin, plus 25 for the Bonus. There is no change in the size of the wins from the bonus that's visible. (I've had wins from 40c to ~120$ from doing straight minimum bets.)

Effectively, there's a slight benefit from larger bets, but it's minor and not worth it unless you're NOT bonus chasing like anybody else. (Example: Mixed bars give a base of 10. That's 20% of minimum, or 26.6% of the second bet, up to 36.36% of max.)

I believe the, "Something," is the $1.00 level because I believe that is what I increased my bet to towards the end of my second run.

In your opinion, when you hit that Shakin' and Reelin' Bonus, does it seem like there are more spots for the Jukebox Jackpot by Max Betting, or even betting more? That was my experience, as I never saw five in a row run at the minimum bet, but if you have, then there is potentially no effect with Max Betting as relates to only the Bonus. If it is the same $0.25 going to the Bonus regardless of the bet level, then depending on your starting point and the ER of the bonus relative to the total bet, it would seem that Max Betting could actually be a disadvantage when one is fairly close to the bonus.

Quote:

Shakin' and Reeling can continue for quite a while... or end immediately. If it collects on the very first spin, you get a consolation 5$, which is approximately equal to the smallest progressive. Otherwise, you get whatever you get. (Which I've seen range from 40 cents to ~120$, whereupon the woman got Jukebox Jackpot.

This is very good information as I had no idea what would happen if you hit, "Collect," on the first spin. I figured that there might be a return of the Base Bet, but $5.00 isn't a bad consolation if one is betting the minimum.

Quote:

2nd gen: The game discussed by the parent, is an Ad-Vantage Revolution unit; the Jukebox Jackpot is a SINGLE wheel with different segments worth different progressives. I've seen it range from 0 to 5 spaces being worth minimum and 1-4 spaces being worth maximum, with varying numbers in between. Base progressives are usually 5/20/100/800?. This is, by far, the most common unit.

Excellent. I also tend to wonder if the Jukebox Jackpot settings have anything to do with the amount bet or if it is simply based on the album one chooses without respect to the amount bet.

I suppose the only way to really determine that is to look for differences in the Jukebox Jackpot symbol appearances in Shakin' and Reelin' as well as symbol allocation on the actual Jukebox Jackpot compared to the amount bet. Again, that could become quite costly, so it should only be done when one is quite near a Bonus Time. I would probably only switch to a Max Bet well after 11:00 if not only at the first or second mark before 12:00. It's just not worth finding out otherwise when one is going up against the crappy base pays.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 7:33:13 PM permalink

Quote: Venthus
I second this. It can feel downright nasty to play at times, but if you don't mind vulturing, it can be pretty nice. At a rough guess, I estimate it costs ~5$ per hour remaining on the clock and use that as a baseline. I'd highly recommend not touching any unit that isn't advanced to at LEAST 6 o'clock.

I missed that part in my previous post, somehow. I agree with this statement completely and would say that you are looking at 5 * 5 * .50 = $12.50 in total bets as you move from one hour to the other, however, between wins and the possibility of the time acceleration, $5.00 seems like it should be about right.

I also agree with the last part of Venthus' statement, except, I would recommend not touching any unit that has not advanced to at least 9:00 or maybe 10:00.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Venthus

Threads: 26
Posts: 1137

Joined: Dec 10, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 7:46:49 PM permalink

(I'm going to be referring to progressive tier by their color in here, Green>Blue>Yellow>Red.)

Quote:
I believe the, "Something," is the $1.00 level because I believe that is what I increased my bet to towards the end of my second run.

There might be multiple settings in different places; I seem to recall seeing a 8x+25 somewhere. (Whiskey Pete's@Primm maybe?).

Quote:
In your opinion, when you hit that Shakin' and Reelin' Bonus, does it seem like there are more spots for the Jukebox Jackpot by Max Betting, or even betting more? That was my experience, as I never saw five in a row run at the minimum bet, but if you have, then there is potentially no effect with Max Betting as relates to only the Bonus. If it is the same $0.25 going to the Bonus regardless of the bet level, then depending on your starting point and the ER of the bonus relative to the total bet, it would seem that Max Betting could actually be a disadvantage when one is fairly close to the bonus.

Can't really say; I pretty much never raise my bet off the minimum since I chase the bonus. The one time I was actively paying attention to somebody playing above the minimum, she hit a giant block of solid red 7s and cashed out for something like 250$ instead continuing on to the bonus. (She was also aiming to burn her cash down to take advantage of a potential loss rebate. Go figure.) I've hit JJ via S&R before, but not often, and certainly not as much as just scoring the consolation 5$.

Quote:
Excellent. I also tend to wonder if the Jukebox Jackpot settings have anything to do with the amount bet or if it is simply based on the album one chooses without respect to the amount bet.

It's not inherently related; I've gotten, at minimum bet, on multiple occasions, boards without any greens. (And, invariably, I get blue...) I've probably witnessed over 100, and DEFINITELY over 50 progressive attempts and have never witnessed a red win. There's been maybe six yellows.

Quote:
I suppose the only way to really determine that is to look for differences in the Jukebox Jackpot symbol appearances in Shakin' and Reelin' as well as symbol allocation on the actual Jukebox Jackpot compared to the amount bet. Again, that could become quite costly, so it should only be done when one is quite near a Bonus Time. I would probably only switch to a Max Bet well after 11:00 if not only at the first or second mark before 12:00. It's just not worth finding out otherwise when one is going up against the crappy base pays.

In regards to G3 units, I don't think the multiplier is related to bet size; I had a multiplier shift from 3x to 5x on the final spin before Bonus Time while playing min bets all the way from 6->12, with a 3-hour-bump along the way. Thankfully, that actually put me up 10$ at that unit, otherwise I'd've rendered a loss. (Hey, it was enough to cover milkshakes and hot dogs for everybody.)

Also in regards to G3 units, I ended up... moderately lucky and went from a minigame that advanced/retreated along a boardgame for X number of spins and landed on a tile for something like 'Golden Jukebox Jackpot' that had 4 reds, 5 yellows, 3 blues. (Again: Guess what I got...) This was also on minimum bet.

Quote:
I also agree with the last part of Venthus' statement, except, I would recommend not touching any unit that has not advanced to at least 9:00 or maybe 10:00.

Good luck with getting any then-- the timer after Bonus Time tends to start anywhere between 2-5 and the only reason people leave them when they're late is because they ran out of money or they don't know how the bonus works. Which happens occasionally, I admit, but pretty much only at casinos that don't have regular players, and therefore people not savvy with them. (Whiskey Pete is good for that since it's right in front of the doors.)

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 8:13:17 PM permalink

Quote: Venthus

Can't really say; I pretty much never raise my bet off the minimum since I chase the bonus. The one time I was actively paying attention to somebody playing above the minimum, she hit a giant block of solid red 7s and cashed out for something like 250$ instead continuing on to the bonus. (She was also aiming to burn her cash down to take advantage of a potential loss rebate. Go figure.) I've hit JJ via S&R before, but not often, and certainly not as much as just scoring the consolation 5$.

That's basically what I plan to do. I wish I lived in an area with more casinos, I'd make a friggin' killing late at night when nobody else is there on these kind of games. I basically have two casinos within an hour of me, then one that is an hour and a half away, and then another three that are two hours away. I really wouldn't want to drive more than an hour on the chance that a machine(s) of this nature would be close to the bonus. That's the thing that sucks about the casino closest to me with respect to Bonus Vulturing, this is the only game there even remotely like that! I basically vulture with respect to Quick Hits Progressives at an advantage, but they are still so uncertain, and then you hit the smallest one and are now at -ER. They're great, don't get me wrong, but Bonus Vulturing is so much better...

I'm working on Progressive Vulturing on a couple of Video Keno games now, have to do the Math on it, though. I'll let you know as soon as it is done.

I forget the name of them, but there used to be a row of five of this really awesome game where it said the Bonus was guaranteed to hit by the 200th spin. The nice thing was that it was parked near an American Original machine at which you could make a bet totalling $0.01. I could basically just sit at that American Original machine and go through the motions of playing every few seconds while I counted off how many spins each person made since the last Bonus and wait for them to leave. Nobody knew about it unless they actually read the Rules from the Menu because it wasn't advertised anywhere on the machine! Just wait for someone to go 150+ without a Bonus game and swoop in and Max Bet the Hell out of it. The Bonuses kicked ass, too, I don't think I ever saw less than $100 on a $3.00 Max Bet. Those machines are gone now, though.

Quote:
It's not inherently related; I've gotten, at minimum bet, on multiple occasions, boards without any greens. (And, invariably, I get blue...) I've probably witnessed over 100, and DEFINITELY over 50 progressive attempts and have never witnessed a red win. There's been maybe six yellows.

That's still pretty sweet and is excellent information. I would then say that there is no reason to ever Max Bet if one is going to be Bonus Vulturing. The closer that one gets to the Bonus Time, the more Max Betting hurts the ER on the total amount played. Again, there would be a point that Max Betting is better given the Base Pays, but it's difficult to say where.

Quote:
In regards to G3 units, I don't think the multiplier is related to bet size; I had a multiplier shift from 3x to 5x on the final spin before Bonus Time while playing min bets all the way from 6->12, with a 3-hour-bump along the way. Thankfully, that actually put me up 10$ at that unit, otherwise I'd've rendered a loss. (Hey, it was enough to cover milkshakes and hot dogs for everybody.)

I heard that, my friend, a win is a win and an advantage is an advantage...have to take the small ones with the big ones!

Quote:
Good luck with getting any then-- the timer after Bonus Time tends to start anywhere between 2-5 and the only reason people leave them when they're late is because they ran out of money or they don't know how the bonus works. Which happens occasionally, I admit, but pretty much only at casinos that don't have regular players, and therefore people not savvy with them. (Whiskey Pete is good for that since it's right in front of the doors.)

The first one I played was already at 9:00, though there are only two of them, so I may never see that again. I'm just going to have to hope for that to happen, though, at an estimate of $5.00 per hour at Minimum Bet just to make it to the bonus, starting at 6:00 just isn't good enough unless the average Bonus Win is going to be $30.00+, and it's not. That's why I said maybe even 10:00, $15 might even be a bit of a stretch for an average Bonus Win.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

s2dbaker

s2dbaker

Threads: 51
Posts: 3259

Joined: Jun 10, 2010

December 28th, 2012 at 8:23:46 PM permalink

Does anyone else think that the animation on that Rock Around the Clock game is really creepy? Come to think of it, an Konami game is a little off-putting in that respect.

Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez

Venthus

Threads: 26
Posts: 1137

Joined: Dec 10, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 8:41:02 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
I forget the name of them, but there used to be a row of five of this really awesome game where it said the Bonus was guaranteed to hit by the 200th spin. The nice thing was that it was parked near an American Original machine at which you could make a bet totalling $0.01. I could basically just sit at that American Original machine and go through the motions of playing every few seconds while I counted off how many spins each person made since the last Bonus and wait for them to leave. Nobody knew about it unless they actually read the Rules from the Menu because it wasn't advertised anywhere on the machine! Just wait for someone to go 150+ without a Bonus game and swoop in and Max Bet the Hell out of it. The Bonuses kicked ass, too, I don't think I ever saw less than $100 on a $3.00 Max Bet. Those machines are gone now, though.

Aruze has a few slots that do that (there may be others):
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/chinesephoenix.html
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/giantpanda.html
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/shenlong.html

If you look at the screenshots, there's a 'Bet for Rescue Spin' option in the bottom middle that you can turn on.

I may be off on the details, but it works something like this:
Insurance costs each spin extra credits.
If, after 200 spins, a bonus has not hit:

You get free cash, something like 30$.
You get extra wilds on the reels during the bonus.
You get extra spins on the bonus.
The bonus has a multiplier based on the bet size of the last few spins.

If the bonus DOES naturally hit:
Congrats, you just learned what 'insurance' is...

(Oh, and for people in the Temecula area: Rincon has 8 of these, plus 4 G2 Bonus Time units. Right next to each other too, so you can camp both sets.)

Quote: s2dbaker
Does anyone else think that the animation on that Rock Around the Clock game is really creepy? Come to think of it, an Konami game is a little off-putting in that respect.

Well, I guess kids might have a problem with Castlevania or Silent Hill, and those sensitive to flashing lights and loud sounds might have problems with DDR... =)

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 8:55:49 PM permalink

Quote: s2dbaker
Does anyone else think that the animation on that Rock Around the Clock game is really creepy? Come to think of it, an Konami game is a little off-putting in that respect.

I've noticed that with a few other Konami games, but I didn't think this one was that bad.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 9:05:06 PM permalink

Quote: Venthus
Aruze has a few slots that do that (there may be others):
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/chinesephoenix.html
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/giantpanda.html
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/shenlong.html

I don't believe it was any of those because 300 credits was the Max Bet, but it was something very similar looking to the Giant Panda.

Quote:

(Oh, and for people in the Temecula area: Rincon has 8 of these, plus 4 G2 Bonus Time units. Right next to each other too, so you can camp both sets.)

That's awesome! I want to go to Temecula!

Do you know how much that Bet For Rescue option is? There would easily be a point that it was worth Betting For Rescue just based on the $30.00 alone, especially if you played/watched the machine enough to get a good idea of natural bonus frequency.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Venthus

Threads: 26
Posts: 1137

Joined: Dec 10, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 9:39:10 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
That's awesome! I want to go to Temecula!

Hour north of San Diego and two hours east of LA, or somewhere around that.

There's basically 5 casinos within a 15-minute radius, all with different styles so you can pack up and move if you feel your luck has turned. (If you believe in luck.) One perk is that three of them also have self-serve soda fountains. Unfortunately, you have to pay for alcoholic drinks down here.

Quote:
Do you know how much that Bet For Rescue option is? There would easily be a point that it was worth Betting For Rescue just based on the $30.00 alone, especially if you played/watched the machine enough to get a good idea of natural bonus frequency.

Not exactly. Once insurance is turned on, it can't be turned off, so you have to run all 200 [or whatever number it was...] spins with it on. I remember thinking that the free cash was either 3/4ths or 2/3rds the insurance, so it was a pretty good deal. One woman I saw playing it at max bet kept going up and down for HOURS, always between 1000-2000.

I was milling around for maybe two hours (I, uh, strictly control my bankroll by only bringing a certain amount of cash...) and insurance only hit once. She wasn't playing particularly quickly though, she might stop for five minutes after a spin to chat with a friend.

I'd recommend against basing any serious analysis of this unit off my numbers though; they're mostly based on what I recall fro a trip a month back or so. Might be heading down there in the near future though, so I can take photos/notes if you'd like. (Same for the Bonus Time unit.)

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 10:32:41 PM permalink

Quote: Venthus
Hour north of San Diego and two hours east of LA, or somewhere around that.

There's basically 5 casinos within a 15-minute radius, all with different styles so you can pack up and move if you feel your luck has turned. (If you believe in luck.) One perk is that three of them also have self-serve soda fountains. Unfortunately, you have to pay for alcoholic drinks down here.

Cool! I guess I'll just hope to make it out to California one of these days, but I doubt it.

I don't believe that the casinos may give away free alcoholic drinks in Ohio, though the closest casino to me is in West Virginia. I've been offered a free drink here and there at that place, but they're not as liberal about it as they used to be. I don't mind because I'd never drink more than one drink anyway.

Quote:
Not exactly. Once insurance is turned on, it can't be turned off, so you have to run all 200 [or whatever number it was...] spins with it on. I remember thinking that the free cash was either 3/4ths or 2/3rds the insurance, so it was a pretty good deal. One woman I saw playing it at max bet kept going up and down for HOURS, always between 1000-2000.

That's what I'm thinking, it's a great deal, and we might be able to figure something out if we can get more specifics on it. I'm thinking that if the Free Cash was 3/4ths of the amount of the insurance bet based on 200 spins, and say that's $0.20/bet for $40.00 based on 200 spins so $30 insurance pay, then you would want to turn on the insurance at any point at which:

y * [(200 - x) * -.20] + (z * $30) <= 0

Where y represents the probability of Naturally hitting a Bonus Game in the remaining spins prior to 200 and x is the number of spins without a hit while z is the probability of NOT hitting the bonus games within the number of spins remaining. If we were to establish that 160 games had gone by without a Bonus and the result was an 80% probability of not hitting v. a 20% probability of hitting, then:

y * [ 40 * -.20] + (.8 * $30)

.2 * -$8 + ($24)

-$1.60 + $24 = $22.40

There would be a huge advantage in making the Insurance bet in this scenario, but again, to determine the exact point we would need the amount of the Insurance bet, the amount guaranteed to be won for having a successful Insurance bet, and a general idea of the probability of hitting the Free Games.

Quote:
I was milling around for maybe two hours (I, uh, strictly control my bankroll by only bringing a certain amount of cash...) and insurance only hit once. She wasn't playing particularly quickly though, she might stop for five minutes after a spin to chat with a friend.

That's definitely a good way to keep the bankroll under control! You can't gamble what you don't have with you.

Quote:
I'd recommend against basing any serious analysis of this unit off my numbers though; they're mostly based on what I recall fro a trip a month back or so. Might be heading down there in the near future though, so I can take photos/notes if you'd like. (Same for the Bonus Time unit.)

That's an awesome offer, thank you! I doubt if you would have enough of a sample size to get an idea of how frequently Free Games naturally occur, so the best place for us to start is probably by figuring out the actual amount of the insurance bet and that amount guaranteed to be won. I think we're pretty good on the Bonus Time unit for right now.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

tringlomane

tringlomane

Threads: 8
Posts: 6284

Joined: Aug 25, 2012

December 28th, 2012 at 10:52:26 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
Cool! I guess I'll just hope to make it out to California one of these days, but I doubt it.

I don't believe that the casinos may give away free alcoholic drinks in Ohio, though the closest casino to me is in West Virginia.

Yes, it is illegal to serve free alcohol in Ohio casinos, along with a majority of the Midwest (MO, IL, IN, KS are other examples). It's a significant factor on why I seem to go to Tunica or Vegas about once a quarter!

Ardent1

Ardent1

Threads: 5
Posts: 168

Joined: Dec 19, 2012

December 30th, 2012 at 12:12:30 AM permalink

Quote: Mission146
Machine-Rock Around the Clock (Advantage Revolution) 3-Reel

Manufacturer-KONAMI

Is there an advantage to Max Betting?

It seems that the base payouts are perfectly graduated, so I'm going to say there is no advantage to Max Betting unless you are close to the Bonus Games. I did not Max Bet at any point, but the second time I was reasonably close to a Bonus Game, I upped my bet to $1.00 and there is quite clearly more results that lead you to the game that results in one of the Progressive Jackpots the more that you bet. More on that later.

In the old days (three wheel slots with each reel having say 32 stops), the only way a legit casino could change the payback was to change the chip. Today, the slot manufacturers are putting multiple paybacks on the same chip. In essence, the higher bets will result in higher payback based on the industry standard of 10,000,000 pulls.

Quote:
Progressives

You can thoeretically win any of the Progressives regardless of how much you bet. There are four Progressive Levels.

Most of the time, it will be for the smallest jackpot amount with the larger amounts used as "hooks" to tempt the player. Angst created a standard with WMS Boom! -- it was when you found the game with at least 48 firecrackers; the Angst standard was the no-lose situation. If a player found 48 fire-crackers, the worse case was to break-even. To follow the Angst standard, you would divide the lowest progressive by the number of 50-cent spins. However, the problem is as you stated, you might be awarded the "Shaking and Reeling" feature and get "Collect" on your first spin.

Ardent1

Ardent1

Threads: 5
Posts: 168

Joined: Dec 19, 2012

December 30th, 2012 at 12:36:12 AM permalink

Quote: Venthus
Aruze has a few slots that do that (there may be others):
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/chinesephoenix.html
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/giantpanda.html
http://www.aruzegaming.com/games/shenlong.html

If you look at the screenshots, there's a 'Bet for Rescue Spin' option in the bottom middle that you can turn on.

I may be off on the details, but it works something like this:
Insurance costs each spin extra credits.
If, after 200 spins, a bonus has not hit:

You get free cash, something like 30$.
You get extra wilds on the reels during the bonus.
You get extra spins on the bonus.
The bonus has a multiplier based on the bet size of the last few spins.

If the bonus DOES naturally hit:
Congrats, you just learned what 'insurance' is...

Aruze slots are multi-dimensional and you need high level math to have a closed-form solution (way beyond my limited math skills).

What Aruze did as a way of anti-wonging, was to have two things: (a) a count-down meter that guranteed you a bonus round at the end if no bonus round was hit (that is the Rescue Spin feature) offset by (b) a meter that progresses or goes down with the bet amount -- at max bet, it goes up until it reaches the Max multipler and if you bet say $0.50, then that meter goes down with each spin. You had two forms of equity, fewer remaining spins before a guaranteed bonus round and the multiplier used in the bonus round.

The slots in my neck of the woods have a 95% payback if you play max coins (it was 97% in Reno) assuming the industry standard of 10,000,000 pulls. On top of that Aruze had multiple paybacks on one chip -- "A recent Aruze innovation is a machine that reduces the hold percentage as the maximum bet increases." (see page 3, fourth paragragh in their propoganda piece http://www.aruzegaming.com/news/2010/pdf/ggb_sleeping-giant-awakens_0410.pdf )

That means if a slot wonger sees there are 231 spins left until a GUARANTEED bonus round, if he bets the minium, Aruze slots penalizes him because the payback is reduced AND the Multiplier is being reduced (the bonus round could be reduced). In one Aruze game, the slot wonger would bet the MAX bet on the last rescue spin to win two extra spins on the Bonus Round. Some slot wongers focus on the Multiplier Meter, some on the remaining spins, some on both the Meter and remaining spins, etc.

Venthus

Threads: 26
Posts: 1137

Joined: Dec 10, 2012

January 5th, 2013 at 10:45:41 AM permalink

This is NOT the unit I was looking at in Harrah's Rincon; this is in Pala, also in the Temecula area:

http://sdrv.ms/ZpoRyV

The bonuses appear to be slightly different across different games too; the differences between units, at least between shenlong and panda, are material and not just cosmetic. (Photos are for the shenlong unit at Pala.)

The shenlong and phoenix's bonus at Rincon's gave you multiple selections that gave different amounts of extra wilds. The panda version gave you a fixed 10 free spins and extra single wild on reels 2-5, so it started off with 4 extra wilds and ended up with a total of 40 wilds.

Unfortunately, I did not see any of the insurance bonuses hit.

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

January 5th, 2013 at 4:35:23 PM permalink

I'm sorry that you didn't hit on any of those bonuses, but thank you for the machine comparison, breakdown and pictures!

I'll definitely play that if I see it, though I will try to vulture on someone whiffing on Free Games, I'd probably play anyway just because it looks fun.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Venthus

Threads: 26
Posts: 1137

Joined: Dec 10, 2012

January 5th, 2013 at 5:13:51 PM permalink

Oh, I blew out my bankroll on other things, so I just sat there and watched for an hour while the rest of my party cleaned up at House Money BJ.

Ibeatyouraces

Threads: 68
Posts: 11933

Joined: Jan 12, 2010

March 1st, 2014 at 4:13:59 PM permalink

deleted

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

March 1st, 2014 at 4:31:09 PM permalink

Sweet!!!

It's a cute little play and has performed positively for me recently, though not quite to that extent!

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Venthus

Threads: 26
Posts: 1137

Joined: Dec 10, 2012

March 1st, 2014 at 4:35:55 PM permalink

Has anybody seen what the bonus is like on the new Rock Around the Clock units that are 'oversize' (like the ones that act as endcaps) and operate on the 'consecutive win' system?

I think there's an example of one right in front of the bar at The D, a few feet away from the middle generation version.

Ibeatyouraces

Threads: 68
Posts: 11933

Joined: Jan 12, 2010

March 1st, 2014 at 4:42:24 PM permalink

deleted

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

Ibeatyouraces

Threads: 68
Posts: 11933

Joined: Jan 12, 2010

March 1st, 2014 at 5:11:17 PM permalink

deleted

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

patches

patches

Threads: 0
Posts: 1

Joined: Mar 11, 2014

March 11th, 2014 at 9:14:20 AM permalink

That must be the Triple Clock you are playing in the photos. I have only seen them in one casino. I have a had couple of those big hits from very limited experience, but you can also get tiny bonuses. Do you any formula for starting a play on these?! I just don't have enough data to guess.

Hoodstar

Hoodstar

Threads: 2
Posts: 36

Joined: Sep 19, 2015

October 24th, 2015 at 1:14:43 PM permalink

Sorry for the grave dig on this post, but saw a couple machines this weekend that seem not to function like this (2013 model). It appears that the 2013 version is a simple must hit progressive and the clock moves as you get closer to the must hit amount (but moves slowly). I take it the newer models the clock functions differently? I didn't notice on the machines I saw today any indication that the clocks were moving towards a bonus round just a must hit by 500 and 50 jackpots.

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

October 24th, 2015 at 3:50:06 PM permalink

That's quite possible, there are a few different versions of this title.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Exoter175

Exoter175

Threads: 0
Posts: 206

Joined: Sep 28, 2015

October 26th, 2015 at 4:01:34 AM permalink

Quote: Hoodstar
Sorry for the grave dig on this post, but saw a couple machines this weekend that seem not to function like this (2013 model). It appears that the 2013 version is a simple must hit progressive and the clock moves as you get closer to the must hit amount (but moves slowly). I take it the newer models the clock functions differently? I didn't notice on the machines I saw today any indication that the clocks were moving towards a bonus round just a must hit by 500 and 50 jackpots.

From what I gather there are the following.

RAtC:PB with 500/50 pay by progressives, awful meter rate and don't function like the original RAtC game.

RAtC:OG with four progressives with a base value of 5.00, 20.00, 100.00, and 800.00 which "spins" into either Jukebox Jackpot or Shakin and Reelin bonus.

RAtC:MX which is a 4 level progressive of smaller values to the OG version, with the main difference being the multiplier on top, and the addition of other bonuses like the "super" bonuses and "mystery credit" bonuses, as well as the "Fortunate Racer" bonus.

RaTC:5JP a 5 level progressive jackpot that, once in the bonus, spins each "record" for its jackpot value, could potentially award all 5, but could also award none of them.

RaTC:6JP same as the 5 level progressive, but now we have a 6th level.

Hoodstar

Hoodstar

Threads: 2
Posts: 36

Joined: Sep 19, 2015

October 26th, 2015 at 6:55:00 AM permalink

Quote: Exoter175
From what I gather there are the following.

RAtC:PB with 500/50 pay by progressives, awful meter rate and don't function like the original RAtC game.

RAtC:OG with four progressives with a base value of 5.00, 20.00, 100.00, and 800.00 which "spins" into either Jukebox Jackpot or Shakin and Reelin bonus.

RAtC:MX which is a 4 level progressive of smaller values to the OG version, with the main difference being the multiplier on top, and the addition of other bonuses like the "super" bonuses and "mystery credit" bonuses, as well as the "Fortunate Racer" bonus.

RaTC:5JP a 5 level progressive jackpot that, once in the bonus, spins each "record" for its jackpot value, could potentially award all 5, but could also award none of them.

RaTC:6JP same as the 5 level progressive, but now we have a 6th level.

Yep was definitely the first one. Based on what I observed (by torching some money through the machine), the 500$ jackpot meter moved one cent for every 3$ coin in. But you had to have the "Xtra" button turned on which added another 20 cents to that. The clock was at 11 with a progressive of $462, so would only take about $12,000 coin in to get the 500$ "jackpot" O_O

I wonder how many suckers like me they have gotten a few bucks off of by thinking the machine was playable past nine? Lol

Romes

Romes

Threads: 29
Posts: 5624

Joined: Jul 22, 2014

October 26th, 2015 at 7:27:44 AM permalink

Forgive my ignorance, but was the final conclusion (for the older version of the game) that betting more just before the Bonus Time was not necessary? Very useful report Mission, thanks!

Playing it correctly means you've already won.

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

October 26th, 2015 at 7:11:55 PM permalink

Quote: Romes
Forgive my ignorance, but was the final conclusion (for the older version of the game) that betting more just before the Bonus Time was not necessary? Very useful report Mission, thanks!

You're welcome, and that's correct. The Bonus bet amount is always the same, only the Base Bet differs.

It's possible that the 7's turn Red and Blue more frequently, (good) but you'd still be betting more into a negative expectation, so, while I technically can't be 100% sure, I'm 99.9997% sure you'd want to bet the minimum.

Thanks for the compliment, of course!

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Exoter175

Exoter175

Threads: 0
Posts: 206

Joined: Sep 28, 2015

October 26th, 2015 at 7:21:56 PM permalink

Quote: Romes
Forgive my ignorance, but was the final conclusion (for the older version of the game) that betting more just before the Bonus Time was not necessary? Very useful report Mission, thanks!

Correct. Though there is a very specific situation on one of those clocks I had mentioned, where betting more before the bonus might be necessary, I won't post it publicly since Axel will likely post in here asking me to delete it for the sake of keeping stuff a "secret" like he did with Mamat.

AxelWolf

AxelWolf

Threads: 170
Posts: 22694

Joined: Oct 10, 2012

October 26th, 2015 at 9:20:27 PM permalink

Quote: Exoter175
Correct. Though there is a very specific situation on one of those clocks I had mentioned, where betting more before the bonus might be necessary, I won't post it publicly since Axel will likely post in here asking me to delete it for the sake of keeping stuff a "secret" like he did with Mamat.

No one cares about posting crappie information about Vulture plays(probably someone does). There was a big difference between the two.

If you found a new table game and you were finding misprinted payouts in you're favor at various locations would you want me to post about it?

I never said no one should ever post information. I just say respect the business and others, especially if you're an AP.

If anyone serious asked me to take down something because it could affect them, I would do so.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

Ibeatyouraces

Threads: 68
Posts: 11933

Joined: Jan 12, 2010

October 27th, 2015 at 2:34:41 PM permalink

Here is of the newer ones.

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

Hoodstar

Hoodstar

Threads: 2
Posts: 36

Joined: Sep 19, 2015

October 27th, 2015 at 2:58:36 PM permalink

Yep that is the one!

Meh.

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

October 27th, 2015 at 7:39:35 PM permalink

Oh, good, a must-hit machine just like any other must-hit machine. While I would only AP RAtC, the ploppy in me says, "At least that's a unique game feature!". That's with respect to the original, of course.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Ibeatyouraces

Threads: 68
Posts: 11933

Joined: Jan 12, 2010

October 27th, 2015 at 9:20:19 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
Oh, good, a must-hit machine just like any other must-hit machine. While I would only AP RAtC, the ploppy in me says, "At least that's a unique game feature!". That's with respect to the original, of course.

The meter movement on the one I just uploaded is horrid. I think it's $45 to move the major 1¢

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

October 27th, 2015 at 10:26:36 PM permalink

Quote: Ibeatyouraces
The meter movement on the one I just uploaded is horrid. I think it's $45 to move the major 1¢

And $386000 coin-in later, you'll have yourself $500!

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Ibeatyouraces

Threads: 68
Posts: 11933

Joined: Jan 12, 2010

October 27th, 2015 at 10:30:00 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
And $386000 coin-in later, you'll have yourself $500!

LOL that's about right! I'll get an accurate count next time.

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

October 27th, 2015 at 10:33:52 PM permalink

When someone else is doing the playing, I hope!

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Ibeatyouraces

Threads: 68
Posts: 11933

Joined: Jan 12, 2010

October 27th, 2015 at 10:38:08 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
When someone else is doing the playing, I hope!

I've played all of two must hits all year. As I've said before, ploppies just never leave when they get close.

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

Mission146

Threads: 142
Posts: 16832

Joined: May 15, 2012

October 27th, 2015 at 11:22:50 PM permalink

Quote: Ibeatyouraces
I've played all of two must hits all year. As I've said before, ploppies just never leave when they get close.

Nope, foolish, but not foolish enough for us!

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

beachbumbabs

beachbumbabs

Threads: 101
Posts: 14268

Joined: May 21, 2013

October 27th, 2015 at 11:51:07 PM permalink

Honestly, I'd take all the ploppy slots I used to play 15-20 years ago over nearly everything available now, including all the must-hits. Give me the nickel slots back where I was playing for 2.25 a throw and regularly winning $800-$1000 every session. (Understand I've never gambled more than maybe 20 days/year, most years more like 10). These days they make a huge deal out of playing $2-3-4 on pennies and acting like you did something when you break a hundred, just because they can show a "big win" graphic with 5 figures on it. Such a come-on for nothing.

Winning Bid
Double Dolphin
Something about a penguin pays; the bonus the penguin appears in each square and makes that symbol wild (pays both directions)
Catch a Wave
Whodunnit?
The Streak
An Odyssey game about a dog and dog bones
White water rafting
Fox and Hounds

Bunch of others I can't think of. Those are memorable because I hit a jackpot of 1K or better at least once on each. Post Reel Fishing (original) and pre-penny craze, 9 to 15 lines. My personal golden era of slots. Exception: the incredibly obnoxious Jackpot Party (original and all updates).

/curmudgeonly rant :)

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

Ibeatyouraces