Denominations and bonus games

I would like to know a little more about two things that have been on my mind.
1. Denominations: I play machines that have $100, $200, $500, and $1000 denomination options (on the same machine). Last time I played a Pinball machine on the $100 option, won $9k, then after a couple more spins, switched to the $1000 option for one spin and hit $140k. If someone was able to successfully switch back and forth from $100 to the higher denoms, wouldn't the payout percentage of the machine be skewed?

2. I play a lot of the bonus games like Top Dollar and Pinball. I've noticed a couple things. (Last year I had over 1.4 million in W2G's, I've seen a lot of spins...) Number 1: If I just play 1 credit (not enough to activate the bonus feature on Top Dollar), and I hit a Top dollar symbol, it ALWAYS reappears within the next few spins to activate when I have 2 credits in the machine. Number 2: If I cycle past the best offer on Top Dollar, and end up with a much lower bonus than I could have possible had (EX: 1500, 3000, 9000, 1500), the Bonus feature almost always activates very soon thereafter and gives me another chance at the bonus.

I'm not advocating that this in any way is correct, but I haven't been able to find a very good or knowledgeable explanation of the bonus rounds or denomination theory.

O and here's a pic of the damn Pinball machine at the Wynn that I can't hit a Pinball on :( Just keeps giving me baby pots.

Thanks for the help!

Each denom may have it's own payout percentage

Wow! 1.4mil in W2G's. How does one prove 1.4mil in losses to offset those winnings?

Here's what the Nevada Gaming Regulations say (Regulation 14.040(2)):

"(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.

(c) The selection process must not produce detectable patterns of game elements or detectable dependency upon any previous game outcome, the amount wagered, or upon the style or method of play."

Maybe I am interpreting it wrong, but the way I read it, the machine can't chance the probability of activating the bonus feature based on previous spins. (Modifying the possible payout amounts, or the probabilities of getting particular amounts, yes, but the probability of getting the bonus in the first place, no.)

I track all my play via players cards, and when I play table games, I religiously double check with the floor guy (forgot the name for this?) to verify that he recorded the correct loss or win if any. This is a big game that casinos play, and they will short you if you give them the chance. This will never be admitted, but every trip I end up having to change my loss statements with the casino hosts to accurately reflect what was gambled. If your host isn't willing to bend a little, get a new one. If I win overall for the year, and I agree with the loss statements, I end up paying taxes, just all part of the game.

It seems that things are pretty hush hush about the bonus games and different denom machines. I would think the RNG bases itself off prior payouts in order to ensure a casino win, but it sounds like that's illegal. If anyone else has input, I would greatly appreciate it.

The way the gaming regulations put it, it sounds like the denominations and bonus probability is untrue, but if anyone has any other info, I'd love to hear it. Maybe this is all there is though, it just sounds a bit open-ended. I wonder what type of loopholes they are taking advantage of if any.

On a multi-denom game, the operator can configure each denomination to have it's own paytable.

In Nevada, and other class III domestic jurisdictions, the odds of a game may not change. This means that you have exactly the same chance of hitting a bonus on any spin.

I have a lot of experience with IGT games and I know that each spin is completely independent and the game has no memory.

So when we talk about the 'life' of the machine, if the probability is the same on each spin, and the game has no memory, then it would be possible for the game to hit 10 full jackpots in a row? And the game never 'remembers' how much it has already paid out? Can you give a little more insight into the volatility/frequency of a machine and also the 'machine life'? Thank you.

One of the reasons I'm so curious is that I was talking with a casino owner (one of the larger casinos in vegas), and he talked about how the machines would adjust (or be adjusted) for probability in accordance with overall profitability. He mentioned that you could hit back to back to back jackpots, but as the profitability (for the casino) decreased, the machine would adjust probability. From what you're saying, his statement sounds like total bs. Thanks for the follow up.

Yes, if the machine has multiple denominations (or games) that have different hold percentages then it skews the results of the machine as a whole for analytical purposes. At least annually we must recalculate the expected hold of the machine based on the ratio of play on different paytables.

Mark

Mark,

I think I understand what you are saying here, but can you elaborate more? When you say you must recalculate the expected hold, this is based on solely play between the different games or denominations, not actual payout or profit, correct?

That is correct ljnes. The hold percentage doesn't change, only the expected hold we use to look for problems.

So a couple of questions here just to make sure I understand.

1. When recalculating the hold percentage, due to skewing from different games/denoms, is the hold percentage actually re-programmed on the machines? This is done on an annual basis?

2. Does the RNG operate at all times, or only when money is in the machine?

The percentage of the games never changes. Say I have a machine with two games, one has a 5% hold and the is 9%. We look at reports at least monthly to see if there might be any problems with a game. We compare the theoretical hold of the machine to the actual hold of the machine. Since this machine has two different hold percentages we might initially use the average of the holds for comparison purposes, in this case it would be 7%. However after a few months we would look at the machine and find that 80% of all the coin-in (play) is on the 5% game. We would then change our theoretical hold percentage on our slot tacking system to 80% x 5% + (20% x 9%) = 5.8%. This represents the amount we expect to hold based on our best information. When we set this value in the system it doesn't affect the machine in any way. It is only for analysis purposes.

I believe the rng runs continuously.

Thanks for the info. So basically if I have a machine that has either 100 or 1000 dollar credit options, it is possible (not probable :)) that I may switch at just the right time, for every jackpot on the RNG, and hit the jackpot on the $1000 coin, thus making the machine pay out net negative to the casino over time. The machine does not gauge this or change anything based on what is played or won, and will continue to play out as it was originally set. Also, even on the same game (lets use IGT pinball for example), the different denominations (100 vs 1000) can have different hold percentages, even though it is the same game, correct? Thanks again for making this clear for me, just want to make sure I'm thinking about things the right way.

Can anyone verify that the RNG does indeed run continuously, even while not being played/ money in machine?

Quote: ljnes1

Can anyone verify that the RNG does indeed run continuously, even while not being played/ money in machine?

In many jurisdictions this is a requirement. GLI Standard 11, section 4.3.4 requires that "The RNG shall be cycled continuously in the background between games and during game play...". And if I'm not mistaken, GLI-11 is the controlling standard in Mark's jurisdiction (but I could be wrong - I'm not in compliance so I don't have all this stuff memorized...)

Quote: marksolberg

The percentage of the games never changes. Say I have a machine with two games, one has a 5% hold and the is 9%. We look at reports at least monthly to see if there might be any problems with a game. We compare the theoretical hold of the machine to the actual hold of the machine. Since this machine has two different hold percentages we might initially use the average of the holds for comparison purposes, in this case it would be 7%. However after a few months we would look at the machine and find that 80% of all the coin-in (play) is on the 5% game. We would then change our theoretical hold percentage on our slot tacking system to 80% x 5% + (20% x 9%) = 5.8%. This represents the amount we expect to hold based on our best information. When we set this value in the system it doesn't affect the machine in any way. It is only for analysis purposes.

That seems like a lot of work. Doesn't your tracking system allow for analysis on a game-by-game basis, rather than just the whole machine? I'd think it'd be far easier to automate if you used actual coin-in broken out into the appropriate game buckets and then just looked at them individually (based on the individual RTP of each game). That way it corrects itself and you don't have to do any (extra) work.

I would also like to know if the RNG ever repeats itself, and how large of a range of combinations is typical. Does anyone know anything about the 'random' technology that is being used to physically randomize the RNG (instead of just logically)?

Any follow up to the last 2 replys? :)

Quote: ljnes1

I would also like to know if the RNG ever repeats itself, and how large of a range of combinations is typical. Does anyone know anything about the 'random' technology that is being used to physically randomize the RNG (instead of just logically)?

The RNG is not predictable. On the IGT machines, the RNG seeds are set by random physical events by measuring the amount of time that certain actions take while initially setting up the game. After that, the RNG continuously cycles. Even with perfect knowledge of how the RNG operates, it still cannot be predicted.

"the RNG seeds are set by random physical events by measuring the amount of time that certain actions take while initially setting up the game"

What do you mean by setting up the game? Can you give an example on this? Thanks for the info.

Quote: ljnes1

"the RNG seeds are set by random physical events by measuring the amount of time that certain actions take while initially setting up the game"

What do you mean by setting up the game? Can you give an example on this? Thanks for the info.

Here is a summary of steps when a game is new:
-Perform a RAM clear on the machine. This wipes out all memory. This is typically done one time for a game, unless there is some sort of unrecoverable error.
-Install new game software.
-During the setup, it will prompt the slot tech to do certain things, such as "press XYZ button for 3-10 seconds." The machine will measure the actual amount of time the button was held, probably in milliseconds, and use this as one of the numbers to seed the RNG. There are other physical events that the slot tech may not even know about, such as measuring the amount of time it takes to shut the door after the rest of the setup is complete. It is up to the manufacturer to choose the physical events that they want to measure to seed the RNG.