Post-mortem poker play
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17 members have voted
January 25th, 2012 at 10:44:21 AM
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Suppose a number of players are in a cash game of poker, no limit, doesn't matter which variant. Should one of the players die in the middle of a hand he is in, what do you believe would be the most ethical way to finish his hand?
The rules for this in tournaments are well established, but chips in a tournament have no cash value, making it a different issue. For cash games, AFAIK, this is one of the few questions on which there still is no definitive consensus, and such situations have been resolved differently. In some locales the laws may restrict particular resolutions.
In either case, the question is not about what would most likely be done, but what you believe should be done.
The rules for this in tournaments are well established, but chips in a tournament have no cash value, making it a different issue. For cash games, AFAIK, this is one of the few questions on which there still is no definitive consensus, and such situations have been resolved differently. In some locales the laws may restrict particular resolutions.
In either case, the question is not about what would most likely be done, but what you believe should be done.
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January 25th, 2012 at 10:53:55 AM
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As I recall, almost this exact scenario was part of the rules for an online poker site. I forget which one. (I.E. I forget which one where I bothered to read the rules.)
The situation is, if a player should lose his internet connection, the pot will be split, and he will see the showdown as if he was all-in with just the chips he had put forward.
The rule also said that they will be monitoring for abuse of this rule.
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Her husband's illness, not death, was the plot of an old western poker movie, "Big Hand for the Little Lady." Great movie. Although she didn't know the game, she took his seat and played out the game. I won't tell you the rest of the movie....
The situation is, if a player should lose his internet connection, the pot will be split, and he will see the showdown as if he was all-in with just the chips he had put forward.
The rule also said that they will be monitoring for abuse of this rule.
---
Her husband's illness, not death, was the plot of an old western poker movie, "Big Hand for the Little Lady." Great movie. Although she didn't know the game, she took his seat and played out the game. I won't tell you the rest of the movie....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 25th, 2012 at 10:56:29 AM
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This has actually come up in a game I played in a Washington casino, 1/2NL Hold 'em around 2004. Old man in seat 5 was in the hand but after the board was dealt out, he started slumping in his chair and dealer said "Your action, Herb. Herb? You okay, Herb? Herb?". At this point Herb is slumping way down clutching at his chest. Floor comes over and leans the back of Herb's chair back till Herb is lying on his back on the floor, but still seated in the chair. Paramedics are called and Herb is hauled away, never to be seen again and I later learned he died. Play went on during the hand as the rest of us were curious, but we weren't going to stop the game for all this. Herb was declared out of the hand and his cards were mucked. Floor picked up his chipstack to return to him later should he return, which he did not. I'm guessing the casino just annexed them.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
January 25th, 2012 at 10:59:10 AM
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Upon reading Zippy's reply, I'm rethinking my choice.
Voluntarily or not, vacating a seat means forfeiture of the hand.
That casino did the right thing.
I would hope that they also tried to return the stack to the next of kin....
Voluntarily or not, vacating a seat means forfeiture of the hand.
That casino did the right thing.
I would hope that they also tried to return the stack to the next of kin....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 25th, 2012 at 11:22:57 AM
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I usually feel I've heard every gambling question at least once, but this is a first.
I'm not sure what the rules say to do in this situation. There is probably a rule that if you vacate your seat mid-hand then you are deemed to have folded. However, one could argue this might not apply because:
1. The body at least is still in the seat.
2. It seems rather heartless, since the player obviously didn't intend to die.
Lacking no other guidance, I think the right think to do would be to handle it like a disconnect in Internet poker. Make a side pot based on what was in there at the time of death. If the deceased ends up winning then he gets that side pot. Set all money aside for the next of kin.
I'm not sure what the rules say to do in this situation. There is probably a rule that if you vacate your seat mid-hand then you are deemed to have folded. However, one could argue this might not apply because:
1. The body at least is still in the seat.
2. It seems rather heartless, since the player obviously didn't intend to die.
Lacking no other guidance, I think the right think to do would be to handle it like a disconnect in Internet poker. Make a side pot based on what was in there at the time of death. If the deceased ends up winning then he gets that side pot. Set all money aside for the next of kin.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
January 25th, 2012 at 12:22:02 PM
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I agree with you Wiz. I was at a table game when a player had a heart attack. He was on the floor with a doctor attending to him.
His wife asked the doctor if her husband was still alive. The doctor, in his best bedside manner replied, " Only in the side pot, Dear "
His wife asked the doctor if her husband was still alive. The doctor, in his best bedside manner replied, " Only in the side pot, Dear "
January 25th, 2012 at 1:01:03 PM
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Quote: WizardSo we have TWO members of the board where this actually happened! What are the odds?
Buzz, may I ask which state this happened in?
Aw Wiz I was just funning!
January 25th, 2012 at 1:01:04 PM
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Quote: Wizard
Buzz, may I ask which state this happened in?
Rigor Mortis?
January 25th, 2012 at 1:03:10 PM
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Quote: DrJohnRigor Mortis?
State of DENIAL.
January 25th, 2012 at 1:04:15 PM
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1) Return all bets and turn in all hands and play things over.
2) Do not resume play until the paramedics and/or police are done.
2) Do not resume play until the paramedics and/or police are done.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
January 25th, 2012 at 1:04:35 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffState of DENIAL.
Didn't know they had casinos in Egypt.
January 25th, 2012 at 1:10:09 PM
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Quote: DrJohnDidn't know they had casinos in Egypt.
I got gypted in LV on more than one occassion.
January 25th, 2012 at 1:14:03 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearAs I recall, almost this exact scenario was part of the rules for an online poker site.
Such a rule is now fairly common, although not universal, called "disconnection all-in protection". Specific limitations vary, it can be 1 or 2 in 48 hours for cash games, in tournaments a set limit per tournament.
Quote: Wizard1. The body at least is still in the seat.
Spoken like a true poker player.
Quote: WizardWhat are the odds?
Well - poker isn't traditionally a young man's game, and it's one of the few activities you can stay good at and enjoy till your very death.
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January 25th, 2012 at 2:43:42 PM
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Quote: Wizard2. It seems rather heartless, since the player obviously didn't intend to die.
I actually laughed out loud at this comment. I'm picturing some scrupulous player faking a death so he doesn't have to commit his remaining chips to the pot. Before you know it, it will become part of the game, kind of like bluffing.
I guess, you know what, I don't know what the right protocol is. I pray I'm never at the table when such a thing happens. It's bad enough when they call the paramedics in for a 300+ pound guy who thinks he may be having a heart attack... that's rather scary... but to have someone DIE while playing poker... that's pretty bad.
So to add fuel to the fire, what happens if that player's hand caused the Bad Beat Jackpot to hit... what do you do then?
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
January 25th, 2012 at 2:45:41 PM
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Now for the expired player it brings new meaning to the word Bad Beat Jackpot.
January 25th, 2012 at 3:37:56 PM
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Quote: TiltpoulI actually laughed out loud at this comment. I'm picturing some scrupulous player faking a death so he doesn't have to commit his remaining chips to the pot. Before you know it, it will become part of the game, kind of like bluffing.
I guess, you know what, I don't know what the right protocol is. I pray I'm never at the table when such a thing happens. It's bad enough when they call the paramedics in for a 300+ pound guy who thinks he may be having a heart attack... that's rather scary... but to have someone DIE while playing poker... that's pretty bad.
So to add fuel to the fire, what happens if that player's hand caused the Bad Beat Jackpot to hit... what do you do then?
I actually asked a unscrupulous dead player if he had planned to die, and he did not deny it.
January 25th, 2012 at 3:48:36 PM
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Quote: TiltpoulI actually laughed out loud at this comment. I'm picturing some scrupulous player faking a death so he doesn't have to commit his remaining chips to the pot. Before you know it, it will become part of the game, kind of like bluffing.
Absurdity calls to like, so:
You remind me of a Daffy Duck cartoon where he presents an amazing show, but one that can only be done that once...
And of one of the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy books, where an incidental character is spending a year dead "for tax purposes."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
January 25th, 2012 at 4:01:17 PM
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Realistically, I think everybody at the table would be fine with all betting action being stopped.. and everybody treated as all-in.
I also would imagine that if the table was regulars... if the deceased was heads up with another player and ruled all-in and won the pot... that say a month of so down the road, people would rag on the losing player as, "the player so bad that he/she lost to a dead man"
I also would imagine that if the table was regulars... if the deceased was heads up with another player and ruled all-in and won the pot... that say a month of so down the road, people would rag on the losing player as, "the player so bad that he/she lost to a dead man"
January 26th, 2012 at 3:55:44 AM
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I asked a friend of mine who used to be with the Gaming Control Board and later casino president of a large Vegas casino. Here was his reply.
Quote:Well, besides attending to the person and dealing with the actual death issue, the poker protocol is pretty simple. It would be treated as an all-in situation and the hand would be played out. I guess this would be the ultimate all-in.
The money in the pot is already committed and would be paid to the winner - including the deceased's estate.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
January 27th, 2012 at 11:51:02 AM
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I don't play poker much, so didn't see things like this.
But I did see a slot player died on the slot machine while playing.
Of course, his body eventually slided to the floor.
But I did see a slot player died on the slot machine while playing.
Of course, his body eventually slided to the floor.
winning streaks come and go, losing streak never ends.
