Which Poker Hand Should Be Highest In Value?
Poll
 | 6 votes (54.54%) | ||
| | 2 votes (18.18%) | ||
| | 3 votes (27.27%) |
11 members have voted
June 18th, 2011 at 8:49:23 AM
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For giggles, I created a program to evaluate all of the possible five card poker combinations from two decks of cards. I took two decks of cards, and for every possible five card combination, evaluated the outcome. There are 91,962,520 possible combinations.
Seeing that there are actually fewer Royal Straight Flush combinations than Five of a Kind made me wonder if I should value Royals over Fives. However because Royals are just a derivative of Straight Flush, should Five of a Kind trump all Straight Flushes whether Royal or not. I don't know the answer but I figured I would get some input from other degenerate gamblers ( as my mother likes to call me ).
| ranking | total |
|---|---|
| Five of a Kind | 728 |
| Royal Straight Flush | 128 |
| Other Straight Flush | 1152 |
| Four of a Kind | 87,360 |
| Full House | 244,608 |
| Flush | 261,840 |
| Straight | 326,400 |
| Three of a Kind | 3,075,072 |
| Two Pair | 5,374,512 |
| Pair | 40,909,440 |
| Nothing | 41,681,280 |
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 18th, 2011 at 8:57:39 AM
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I don't really play poker (unless you count the $10 I lost at WoVCon, which perhaps is the proof that I don't really play the game), but my opinion is that as far as your two-deck poker game, the 5oak beats a straight flush, with the royal just being both pretty and a straight flush. On the other hand, if there is some sort of bonus to be awarded for extremely high hands, you might need to adjust payout for a royal versus a 5oak.
To clarify why I don't consider the royal separate from the other straight flushes, note that you also didn't separate 5 aces from other 5 of a kind in your table.
To clarify why I don't consider the royal separate from the other straight flushes, note that you also didn't separate 5 aces from other 5 of a kind in your table.
June 18th, 2011 at 9:00:43 AM
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I wasn't thinking of making a game out of it but since I already created the infrastructure, I may as well give it a whirl. PATENT PENDING!!!!Quote: Doc..if there is some sort of bonus to be awarded for extremely high hands, you might need to adjust payout for a royal versus a 5oak.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 18th, 2011 at 9:52:05 AM
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I don't think it's right to pull out the Royal flush from the other straight flushes. If you do that, then why not make 2s-6c-Jd-Qd-9s the highest hand of all? there's only thirty two of those.
A falling knife has no handle.
June 18th, 2011 at 10:00:38 AM
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2s-6c-Jd-Qd-9s is not looked upon as the 'holy grail' of poker hands. Royal Straight Flushes can be considered in their own category, just look at the payouts in Jacks or Better video poker. This is why I'm conflicted, I agree 65% with you that Royals are just another Straight Flush but I'm not fully on board.Quote: MoscaI don't think it's right to pull out the Royal flush from the other straight flushes. If you do that, then why not make 2s-6c-Jd-Qd-9s the highest hand of all? there's only thirty two of those.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 18th, 2011 at 10:11:46 AM
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When it come to standard poker, face to face with other people, I've never felt the need, nor cared, about a royal straight flush. It is just a straight flush, with a certain set of cards.
However, if you are designing more of a machine type game, or table game, then you certainly could have a royal straight flush be different than a straight flush. This is not new. Some machines have even awarded different payouts for the kind of royal straight flush. Diamond royals might pay more than a heart royal. I've even seen this in three-card poker table games where a certain suit of 3-card royal pays a higher bonus than any other suit of 3-card royal. But while the bonus may pay more, note that in the act of comparing your hand to the dealer's hand, the suit never makes a difference. If you had the diamond royal, and the dealer had a spade royal, you would push. You would still get your bonus, and perhaps the extra bonus, but when comparing hands to another player/dealer, that's almost never considered.
The same thing has been done with different kinds of hands as well. Someone mentioned that you didn't split 5 aces from other 5 of a kind, but you certainly could. Certain types of video poker have different payouts for four of a kind 2s, 3s, 4s, vs other four of a kinds. Or Four of a kind aces, with a 2,3,4 vs four of a kind aces with some other card.
Thus, to answer what should be higher, is really going to depend on a lot of factors. What type of game are you designing, and how will it be played. And also what the theme of the game is going to be. However, if you're having a 5-card hand in which 5 of a kind is possible, MOST people are going to automatically figure that a five of a kind is the best hand possible.
However, if you are designing more of a machine type game, or table game, then you certainly could have a royal straight flush be different than a straight flush. This is not new. Some machines have even awarded different payouts for the kind of royal straight flush. Diamond royals might pay more than a heart royal. I've even seen this in three-card poker table games where a certain suit of 3-card royal pays a higher bonus than any other suit of 3-card royal. But while the bonus may pay more, note that in the act of comparing your hand to the dealer's hand, the suit never makes a difference. If you had the diamond royal, and the dealer had a spade royal, you would push. You would still get your bonus, and perhaps the extra bonus, but when comparing hands to another player/dealer, that's almost never considered.
The same thing has been done with different kinds of hands as well. Someone mentioned that you didn't split 5 aces from other 5 of a kind, but you certainly could. Certain types of video poker have different payouts for four of a kind 2s, 3s, 4s, vs other four of a kinds. Or Four of a kind aces, with a 2,3,4 vs four of a kind aces with some other card.
Thus, to answer what should be higher, is really going to depend on a lot of factors. What type of game are you designing, and how will it be played. And also what the theme of the game is going to be. However, if you're having a 5-card hand in which 5 of a kind is possible, MOST people are going to automatically figure that a five of a kind is the best hand possible.
June 18th, 2011 at 10:43:24 AM
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A royal is nothing more than a specific straight flush. Therefore, the five of a kind is harder to hit than any S.F. and it the top ranked hand.
For what it's worth, the Wiz already did all the math for this, here. It's towards the middle of the page, where he gives the number of combinations as well as probability of all hands, for up to 8 decks.
Interestingly, with three or more decks, the five of a kind would drop in rank below S.F. Full House, Straight and Flush start to dance around as well. Most interesting of all, with three or more decks you're more likely to have a pair than no hand at all.
For what it's worth, the Wiz already did all the math for this, here. It's towards the middle of the page, where he gives the number of combinations as well as probability of all hands, for up to 8 decks.
Interestingly, with three or more decks, the five of a kind would drop in rank below S.F. Full House, Straight and Flush start to dance around as well. Most interesting of all, with three or more decks you're more likely to have a pair than no hand at all.
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June 18th, 2011 at 11:19:01 AM
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Uh oh, My calculations are off. I'm far more generous with the Straight Flushes than the Wizard is.Quote: DJTeddyBearFor what it's worth, the Wiz already did all the math for this, here. It's towards the middle of the page, where he gives the number of combinations as well as probability of all hands, for up to 8 decks.
*edit: Fixed the first post.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 18th, 2011 at 11:54:26 AM
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Quote: s2dbaker2s-6c-Jd-Qd-9s is not looked upon as the 'holy grail' of poker hands. Royal Straight Flushes can be considered in their own category, just look at the payouts in Jacks or Better video poker. This is why I'm conflicted, I agree 65% with you that Royals are just another Straight Flush but I'm not fully on board.
Baker brings up a very good point about respecting poker convention by a contrasting example, which some, including the esteemed DJ Dave, disagree.
Every variation of poker might have some quirks of hand occurance frequency, and to constantly act on that would be to tear up workable hand ranking conventions, and make new games and variations harder to play with non-standard rankings.
Even in existing Pai Gow poker with the bug joker, a straight is more common than a three of a kind, yet a straight beats trips to follow convention - and it works out better. Trips ARE recognized as a rarer hand in the bonus table, paying out more (3:1) than a straight (2:1) but in game play, it is to "play like" poker.
One can also argue that in Pai Gow poker, a nine-high hand is rarer than a four of a kind - so, your nine-high shoud rightfully beat my four aces.
A hand may be utterly unique in its weakness and commonness - as each exact hand is only one in 154M.
So the exact hand Kc-Qd-10s-9d-5h-3h-2c is as rare (or as common) as the exact hand As-Ah-Ad-Ac-Joker-Ks-Kh, and should tie and be the same payout on the bonus table. No.
The point of poker hand typing is to have established conventions or ranking that are consistent, that are routinely followed, and that follow hand rarity convention "well enough" so that usuable standardization is in place. This is so that a group of games and their near variations can be learned and played by the same usuable rules with consistency.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
June 18th, 2011 at 12:30:21 PM
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June 18th, 2011 at 12:41:11 PM
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Quote: gofaster87For those of you that think the royal flush is the same as a straight flush you are from from right. A royal can be hit only one way, a straight flush can be made using 2-9. Many more straight flushes than a royal which can only be 10-A.
Sure. But a royal is part of the set of consecutive suited cards. A straight flush can be any consecutive suited cards running the spectrum from A-5 to 10-A.
Now I don't dispute a royal pays more at VP and other games, the question is: are the odds of getting a 10-J-Q-K-A suited any different than getting 6-7-8-9-10 suited?
When playing poker with a single deck and no wild cards, each hand is unique. A pair is worth more than a high card because the odds of getting a pair are lower than getting any high card. Next the odds of getting trips is lower than those of a pair. and so on up to the royal flush.
So the rule ought to be that the lower the odds the more valuable the hand. This would apply to games like VP and side bets in other games. In games where hands compete against other hands, then the ranks are taken into account. So if the odds of having 4 2s are the same as having 4 As, nevertheless 4 As win. But then anyone who's played more than one hand of poker knows to take rank into account for a strategy.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 18th, 2011 at 12:48:02 PM
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My point is that the cards are just cards. The similarities among them are how we organize them to create games and value, but there is nothing particularly unique about them that we haven't given to them. The actual spirit of the question is exactly this point, and my reply is its reducto ad absurdem.
A falling knife has no handle.
June 18th, 2011 at 12:50:34 PM
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June 18th, 2011 at 12:59:41 PM
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Quote: MoscaMy point is that the cards are just cards. The similarities among them are how we organize them to create games and value, but there is nothing particularly unique about them that we haven't given to them. The actual spirit of the question is exactly this point, and my reply is its reducto ad absurdem.
The thing about cards is that the rank and suit allows them to be arranged in a variety of objective patterns. And that's what makes the games fun. As I said, in single deck without wild cards, each possible hand is unique. therefore the odds of drawing a royal are the same as drawing Ah-2c-6s-4h-10d. So going only by odds is ridiculous as it yields no useful game. You go by rank and suit, then by odds.
Other games vary. In BJ, aside from side bets and/or bonuses suit doesn't matter. A Qh-Ah pays the same as a Qh-Ad. In Hearts only some cards even yield points, depending on suit and rank (of course that's a screwed up game where the objective is not to score points)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 18th, 2011 at 1:01:33 PM
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Quote: gofaster87If you're talking VP, the odds are different. A royal is a 1 in 48000 chance in DB while a straight flush is a 1 in 8800 chance. This is because of the cards being held to conform to proper playing strategy.
But if both a straight flush and a royal paid the same, you'd use a different strategy.
Quote:If you're talking straight odds with no value given to a specific hand I suppose there is no difference.
That was my question, yes.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 18th, 2011 at 1:17:14 PM
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Quote: NareedNow I don't dispute a royal pays more at VP and other games, the question is: are the odds of getting a 10-J-Q-K-A suited any different than getting 6-7-8-9-10 suited?
No, they're not - those two hands occur with equal frequency, they just don't pay the same.
This is because all straight flushes of KQJ109 down to 5432A are a single large ranking catagory of those many hands, of which 678910 is a component not broken out in the combined paytable - but a royal is a distinct occurance of only four possible hands, AKQJ10 of a suit, - broken out into its rarer paytable group. And the payout odds pay on an occurance of that group type, not the particular hand within that group type.
In the same way, one can argue that a three of a kind is a subset of a full house or a four of a kind, a pair is a subset of a three of a kind, a four of a kind, and a full house, yada yada yada.
Poker Paytables pay on a demographic type occuring, not on an "individual" occuring. We're looking at Forests, not at trees.
And there is also a little leeway on their ranking order, for standardization, so as long as the entire paytable - on the whole - has a combined house edge, an aggregate house edge.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
June 18th, 2011 at 2:04:59 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanNo, they're not - those two hands occur with equal frequency, they just don't pay the same.
This is because all straight flushes of KQJ109 down to 5432A are a single large ranking catagory of those many hands, of which 678910 is a component not broken out in the combined paytable - but a royal is a distinct occurance of only four possible hands, AKQJ10 of a suit, - broken out into its rarer paytable group. And the payout odds pay on an occurance of that group type, not the particular hand within that group type.
There are only four possible A2345 suited combinations.
In regular poker, and in PGP, a royal is worth more because higher ranks beat lower ranks. This has been carried over to VP.
Quote:In the same way, one can argue that a three of a kind is a subset of a full house or a four of a kind, a pair is a subset of a three of a kind, a four of a kind, and a full house, yada yada yada.
No, but I'd argue that AAA is part of the set that goes from AAA to KKK, and so on.
As to VP the question is: should the game pay for the unlikelihood of the odds for a given hand, or should it also take rank into account?
In the end you accept the rules when you put in your money and press the deal button.
Quote:Poker Paytables pay on a demographic type occuring, not on an "individual" occuring. We're looking at Forests, not at trees.
Depends on the game. DW pays for the very specific four deuces hand. Bonus poker games pay for 4 or 5 Aces depending on the game. Sure, usually you're paid for a kind of hand, but not always. Segregating the royal from other straight flushes is more of the same, even if it means separating a subset rather than one specific hand.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 18th, 2011 at 2:31:28 PM
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Sure, sometimes specific hands ARE separate bonus items - in cases where they are as rare - and as meaningful - as a ranking catagory such as "full house."
Four deuces in the payout table of Deuces Wild is a fine example. But...four deuces makes for Five of a kind as a hand type because of the five-card hand. Granted, you can have a five of a kind with three wilds and a pair, or four deuces and any other card, and so have a separate pay table entry for that.
Now, "Five aces" in Pai gow poker where the joker is only an ace is another example.
In this case one very rare tree is the forest.
But note where the joker is fully wild - can be any card - that it creates the rank catagory of "Five of a Kind" only, and not the separate pay table or hand type catagories such as "five aces," "five kings," "five queens..."
There are certain unwritten rules in poker game design:
1. Game designers - and the nature of individual games themselves - gravitate to a limited number of manageable hand rank catagories. There's six in Three card poker (high card, pair, flush, straight, three of a kind, straight flush. Some break out the mini Royal.) There's more hand ranking types in Hold 'em, Pai Gow Poker, etc. because longer hands can form full houses, four of a kinds, etc, but "hand rank types" are limited. Fine, Sometimes there are sub-catagories: Ace-high Pai Gow, King-high Pai Gow, (and my favorite): Queen-high Pai Gow, etc.
2. Payout table entries are not hand types. A "Royal with Royal match" or "three pairs" are not five-card long hand types - they are payout table entries which are broken out to pay more - because of their rarity.
3. Hand rank groupings are standardized to commonly-held poker conventions, to make new games easy and learnable with less upset, without meticulous obeyance to their mathematical frequency. In Pai Gow Poker, a straight is higher than a three of a kind, even though it is more common because of the joker. The game designer - or the game itself in play - set the conventions of the game.
Four deuces in the payout table of Deuces Wild is a fine example. But...four deuces makes for Five of a kind as a hand type because of the five-card hand. Granted, you can have a five of a kind with three wilds and a pair, or four deuces and any other card, and so have a separate pay table entry for that.
Now, "Five aces" in Pai gow poker where the joker is only an ace is another example.
In this case one very rare tree is the forest.
But note where the joker is fully wild - can be any card - that it creates the rank catagory of "Five of a Kind" only, and not the separate pay table or hand type catagories such as "five aces," "five kings," "five queens..."
There are certain unwritten rules in poker game design:
1. Game designers - and the nature of individual games themselves - gravitate to a limited number of manageable hand rank catagories. There's six in Three card poker (high card, pair, flush, straight, three of a kind, straight flush. Some break out the mini Royal.) There's more hand ranking types in Hold 'em, Pai Gow Poker, etc. because longer hands can form full houses, four of a kinds, etc, but "hand rank types" are limited. Fine, Sometimes there are sub-catagories: Ace-high Pai Gow, King-high Pai Gow, (and my favorite): Queen-high Pai Gow, etc.
2. Payout table entries are not hand types. A "Royal with Royal match" or "three pairs" are not five-card long hand types - they are payout table entries which are broken out to pay more - because of their rarity.
3. Hand rank groupings are standardized to commonly-held poker conventions, to make new games easy and learnable with less upset, without meticulous obeyance to their mathematical frequency. In Pai Gow Poker, a straight is higher than a three of a kind, even though it is more common because of the joker. The game designer - or the game itself in play - set the conventions of the game.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
June 18th, 2011 at 3:19:30 PM
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June 18th, 2011 at 3:56:13 PM
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Pai Gow Poker is from the Mid-80's, from a Los Angeles card room.
Sam Terrosian(? spelling) and Fred Wolfe developed and introduced the game, to generate extra business for their card room.
Sam was told by an attorney - very incorrectly - that such a thing (a casino game ) was not patentable.
Actually, it was patentable, because the patent office at that time went from accepting only manufacturing processes and agricultural processes only, to Intellectual property and designs protection also, - because of computer software and hardware design. This included casino game processes and designs - such as new games.
Oh, well.
Since that time, Pai Gow took off. It was also a fine fit for Shufflemaster's equipment. It became a Standard game - not a carnival game around 2000 or so. Shufflemaster added a bonus bet on three of a kind or better, and ruled the Pai Gow world until 2007 or so until Rob Saucier of Galaxy Gaming release Emporer's Challenge, which included a Pai Gow "insurance" bet - a very good bet. But all casino banked Pai Gow games charged a 5% commission of player wins, to produce a house mechanism that gave a strong enough house edge to offer the game and pay the casino light bills. Poker room "player heads-up" Pai Gow, the poker room charges a rake.
In 2009, DEQ gaming systems released commission-free EZ Pai Gow, which gets its casino edge by pushing hands when the dealers has exactly a Queen-high Pai Gow hand, as a rare non-qualifying hand. Players like it because it feels fairer getting full pay on a winning bet, casinos like it because it gets more hands out per hour at the same house edge, without having their dealers constantly slowing the game down to make change for the commissions.
Right now there are about 2,000 Pai Gow tables in U.S. casinos and card rooms, and is a game that's growing.
I would attend the 2011 G2E expo, to see what new Pai Gow bomb is lurking....
Sam Terrosian(? spelling) and Fred Wolfe developed and introduced the game, to generate extra business for their card room.
Sam was told by an attorney - very incorrectly - that such a thing (a casino game ) was not patentable.
Actually, it was patentable, because the patent office at that time went from accepting only manufacturing processes and agricultural processes only, to Intellectual property and designs protection also, - because of computer software and hardware design. This included casino game processes and designs - such as new games.
Oh, well.
Since that time, Pai Gow took off. It was also a fine fit for Shufflemaster's equipment. It became a Standard game - not a carnival game around 2000 or so. Shufflemaster added a bonus bet on three of a kind or better, and ruled the Pai Gow world until 2007 or so until Rob Saucier of Galaxy Gaming release Emporer's Challenge, which included a Pai Gow "insurance" bet - a very good bet. But all casino banked Pai Gow games charged a 5% commission of player wins, to produce a house mechanism that gave a strong enough house edge to offer the game and pay the casino light bills. Poker room "player heads-up" Pai Gow, the poker room charges a rake.
In 2009, DEQ gaming systems released commission-free EZ Pai Gow, which gets its casino edge by pushing hands when the dealers has exactly a Queen-high Pai Gow hand, as a rare non-qualifying hand. Players like it because it feels fairer getting full pay on a winning bet, casinos like it because it gets more hands out per hour at the same house edge, without having their dealers constantly slowing the game down to make change for the commissions.
Right now there are about 2,000 Pai Gow tables in U.S. casinos and card rooms, and is a game that's growing.
I would attend the 2011 G2E expo, to see what new Pai Gow bomb is lurking....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
June 18th, 2011 at 4:12:54 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanSure, sometimes specific hands ARE separate bonus items -
So we agree the royal gets separated from the straight flush.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 18th, 2011 at 4:13:55 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanPai Gow Poker is from the Mid-80's, from a Los Angeles card room.
Sam Terrosian(? spelling) and Fred Wolfe developed and introduced the game, to generate extra business for their card room.
Sam was told by an attorney - very incorrectly - that such a thing (a casino game ) was not patentable.
So the original game inventors don't have a patent on PGP but you have one on a variant.
Sweet!
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 18th, 2011 at 4:39:49 PM
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Yup....exactly...
The original designers of the Pai Gow, along with some subsequent distributors, answered the Question:
"What to do about a house edge" - with a:
"...Hmm....just slap on a 5% commission....that'll be all right, it's good enough. And we'll brand it by trademarking..."
And yeah, it works...
But I went a little further with Pai Gow.
I dealt it for years, constantly thinking and doing, "okay, now let me make change for the commission, the commission, the commission..."
Finally, I said, "What would be the best way to handle this little thorn..."
The original designers of the Pai Gow, along with some subsequent distributors, answered the Question:
"What to do about a house edge" - with a:
"...Hmm....just slap on a 5% commission....that'll be all right, it's good enough. And we'll brand it by trademarking..."
And yeah, it works...
But I went a little further with Pai Gow.
I dealt it for years, constantly thinking and doing, "okay, now let me make change for the commission, the commission, the commission..."
Finally, I said, "What would be the best way to handle this little thorn..."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
June 18th, 2011 at 4:43:37 PM
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Quote: NareedSo we agree the royal gets separated from the straight flush.
Yes...I think we all agree about this and practice this.
It's been done in poker as a standard convention for eons..
Only basic Three card Poker treats the AKQ of a suit as a "regular straight flush."
Derek Webb, its inventor, actually went against poker convention to lump it into one big "Straight Flush" catagory.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
June 18th, 2011 at 4:53:49 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanI dealt it for years, constantly thinking and doing, "okay, now let me make change for the commission, the commission, the commission..."
Actually, the group of gaming people in charge of the game is called...
"The No Commission....commission..."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
June 18th, 2011 at 7:52:23 PM
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To further expound on this topic, since it's possible with two decks, should a flush with a pair in it be considered of greater value than a regular flush just because it's less common? What about a suited pair? Should that be "special"? Come to think of it, you can have flushes with two pair in them. Is that extra special? Should a KKQQJ flush beat a A6432 flush?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 18th, 2011 at 9:08:16 PM
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Yes it could - as in a multiple-deck poker game you'd have suited pairs as part of a flush.
But that all depends on the rules of the particular NEW game - and the game's designer makes that call.
However, knowing the gaming industry and game distributors, games with daffy new rules are generally a major no-no: multiple deck poker, suited pairs, "Two three-of-a-kinds outranks a four-pair hand," etc. KISS means keep it simple and elegant, a major rule in new game design.
But that all depends on the rules of the particular NEW game - and the game's designer makes that call.
However, knowing the gaming industry and game distributors, games with daffy new rules are generally a major no-no: multiple deck poker, suited pairs, "Two three-of-a-kinds outranks a four-pair hand," etc. KISS means keep it simple and elegant, a major rule in new game design.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
June 18th, 2011 at 10:10:34 PM
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Consider this:Quote: s2dbaker... just look at the payouts in Jacks or Better video poker. This is why I'm conflicted, I agree 65% with you that Royals are just another Straight Flush but I'm not fully on board.
Some video poker varieties rank four aces with a 2, 3 or 4 as worth more than four aces with any other kicker. Why? It's to create additional paylines so they can manipulate the pay tables to get the house edge they are shooting for.
That's got nothing to do with poker - or what you're asking about.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 18th, 2011 at 10:15:50 PM
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If that's the case, why not segregate Broadway or a Wheel from a normal straight? Why not segregate a Steel Wheel from a Straight flush? For one simple reason: These aren't as "sexy" or taught in High School Prob & Stat class.Quote: gofaster87For those of you that think the royal flush is the same as a straight flush, you are far from right. A royal can be hit only one way, 10-A in each suit, a straight flush can be made using k-2 which makes 8 possible ways in each suit. There is a difference which is why a royal pays 4000 on vp and the high hand in live poker is a royal flush.
Again, do not confuse video poker with real poker. Just because video poker segregates it to make an extra payline, doesn't mean it's different.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 18th, 2011 at 10:21:42 PM
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No it's not.Quote: NareedIn regular poker, and in PGP, a royal is worth more because higher ranks beat lower ranks.
It is simply better than any other straight flush because it is Ave High, not because it has a specific name.
I.E. In the same manner that a Jack high S.F. beats a 7 high S.F, a Royal, being an Ace high S.F. beats any other S.F.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 18th, 2011 at 10:25:51 PM
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This s starting to remind me of Sheldon Cooper's 3-person chess. he had to add pieces and rules to make it work... "When can my pawn use the golf cart?" :)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 18th, 2011 at 11:46:16 PM
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FWIW:
Two Identical pairs KK-QQ as Royal Twin Marriages there are 4 of them with 88 others (no K-Q) 352 in all
:P
N&B
Two Identical pairs KK-QQ as Royal Twin Marriages there are 4 of them with 88 others (no K-Q) 352 in all
:P
N&B
To err is human.
To air is Jordan.
To arrr is pirate.
June 19th, 2011 at 12:33:45 AM
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I had something to add, but I can't stop laughing at NandB's sig line. Where was I?
Oh, yes. Royal should beat 5oak unless you specify a 5oak hand (think Pai-Gow). As you can see, a Royal's harder to get than any 5oak, but if you follow Pai-Gow and specify 5oak Aces (or any specific kind), then it should flip flop.
Personally, if making a new game, I'd stick to tradition. Pai-Gow's second highest straight (A,2,3,4,5) makes great sense to me, as it contains the 'high card' of Ace, which should beat a 2,3,4,5,6 straight, since that high card is 6. Ace beats Six, right? Every single person I work with hates it. My guess is it just "doesn't feel right". If making a game, you want to avoid making people not feel right. Same goes for Texas HoldEm Bonus. The bonus for AA is 30:1 at my place, while AK suited is 25:1. Why? Isn't suited AK harder to get than any AA? The reason (I'm guessing) is that it feels right. AA is a better HoldEm hand, so they go with it, lest they make the player feel all funny inside. Poker variants can be fun, some might even be successful. But your going to have one hell of a time if you try to redefine it. Stick with what people know and accept.
Oh, yes. Royal should beat 5oak unless you specify a 5oak hand (think Pai-Gow). As you can see, a Royal's harder to get than any 5oak, but if you follow Pai-Gow and specify 5oak Aces (or any specific kind), then it should flip flop.
Personally, if making a new game, I'd stick to tradition. Pai-Gow's second highest straight (A,2,3,4,5) makes great sense to me, as it contains the 'high card' of Ace, which should beat a 2,3,4,5,6 straight, since that high card is 6. Ace beats Six, right? Every single person I work with hates it. My guess is it just "doesn't feel right". If making a game, you want to avoid making people not feel right. Same goes for Texas HoldEm Bonus. The bonus for AA is 30:1 at my place, while AK suited is 25:1. Why? Isn't suited AK harder to get than any AA? The reason (I'm guessing) is that it feels right. AA is a better HoldEm hand, so they go with it, lest they make the player feel all funny inside. Poker variants can be fun, some might even be successful. But your going to have one hell of a time if you try to redefine it. Stick with what people know and accept.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
June 19th, 2011 at 3:21:21 AM
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Looks like the top ranking for 5 of a kind comes from taking multiple decks and ranking from distribution.
I've always wondered if wild cards make 5 oak easier to hit than a straight flush, and the multi-deck model fails to show this. You sure see plenty of 5 oaks getting hit if there are a lot of wild cards. Probably not, 5 oak is still likely harder to hit, so if playing a friendly game of poker with wild cards, I actually like this idea of making the Royal Flush the highest, above the 5 oak.
However, these days our group rarely plays a wild card game. One thing about the popularity of Texas Hold-em on TV and in general, it may be knocking down this problem of too many wild card games in dealer's choice poker.
I've always wondered if wild cards make 5 oak easier to hit than a straight flush, and the multi-deck model fails to show this. You sure see plenty of 5 oaks getting hit if there are a lot of wild cards. Probably not, 5 oak is still likely harder to hit, so if playing a friendly game of poker with wild cards, I actually like this idea of making the Royal Flush the highest, above the 5 oak.
However, these days our group rarely plays a wild card game. One thing about the popularity of Texas Hold-em on TV and in general, it may be knocking down this problem of too many wild card games in dealer's choice poker.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
June 19th, 2011 at 5:06:49 AM
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I wholeheartedly agree. But I also don't want expectations to get in the way of simplicity. Would someone reasonably expect a flush with two pairs in it eg. JJ885 to beat what would normally be a better flush like AQ853? Perhaps that should be another poll question.Quote: Paigowdan..KISS means keep it simple and elegant, a major rule in new game design.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 19th, 2011 at 6:52:14 AM
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Pai Gow specifies five aces only because aces are the only possible 5oak.Quote: FaceOh, yes. Royal should beat 5oak unless you specify a 5oak hand (think Pai-Gow). As you can see, a Royal's harder to get than any 5oak, but if you follow Pai-Gow and specify 5oak Aces (or any specific kind), then it should flip flop.
Personally, I dislike Pai Gow's A-5 being second best straight. While the Ace high argument works, it's the low end of the straight, so shouldn't it be a 1?
But I think making that weird exception makes Pai Gow seem more exotic, helping to convince people that it's an ancient Asian game.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 19th, 2011 at 7:08:53 AM
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.....
June 19th, 2011 at 10:14:40 AM
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Back in highschool we played a poker variant we called Sangrienta (bloody). It starts as five card draw, except a player has to declare whether he wants to play high, low or poker. If none do, the ante stays in the pot, new cards are dealt and new ante is collected.
Ok, if a player declares poker, it continues as a regualr poker game with discards and draw.
If a player goes for high, then the following rules apply: face cards are worth ten points, aces 11 points, and the rest are worth pip value. Whoever has the most poitns wins
If a player goes for low, then face cards are worth zero points, aces one point, and the rest are pip value.
The kink in the game is that the player who declares is liable for the pot. So if he loses, the pot stays on the table and the player who started the round pays the winner directly. if he wins, he takes the pot. The game goes on until a player who declares his choice wins. ergo the name.
Anyway, a very valuable hand in such a game is QhJsQdKc2h. It's a great low hand, an ok high hand and an ok poker hand. even better would be KhKcKdAsAd.
So yes, it depends on the rules of the game.
Ok, if a player declares poker, it continues as a regualr poker game with discards and draw.
If a player goes for high, then the following rules apply: face cards are worth ten points, aces 11 points, and the rest are worth pip value. Whoever has the most poitns wins
If a player goes for low, then face cards are worth zero points, aces one point, and the rest are pip value.
The kink in the game is that the player who declares is liable for the pot. So if he loses, the pot stays on the table and the player who started the round pays the winner directly. if he wins, he takes the pot. The game goes on until a player who declares his choice wins. ergo the name.
Anyway, a very valuable hand in such a game is QhJsQdKc2h. It's a great low hand, an ok high hand and an ok poker hand. even better would be KhKcKdAsAd.
So yes, it depends on the rules of the game.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 19th, 2011 at 2:36:53 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearPai Gow specifies five aces only because aces are the only possible 5oak.
I know. My sentence was a little muddy. I didn't mean to imply there were others in Pai Gow, but that he could specify a certain 5oak in his particular game.
Quote: DJTeddyBearPersonally, I dislike Pai Gow's A-5 being second best straight. While the Ace high argument works, it's the low end of the straight, so shouldn't it be a 1?
You helped make my point =). In nearly every situation the Ace is looked at favorably. It's the highest single card, highest pair, highest set, etc and so on. Only when used in the A-5 straight does it suddenly turn into the wimpiest of all cards. Indeed, it is then a one, but it's still an Ace and the Ace holds a certain power to it. It's similar in BJ, Ace can be a 1 there too, but I'm never sad to see one, or look at is as less than a 2 or 6 or 8. It's an Ace! Wee! So yeah, Pai-Gow's rule makes sense to me. But, I was only saying that it MADE SENSE to me. I, the people I work with, and apparently you all favor the A-5 being low, which was my point. If it feels right, do it. Whether or not 5oak rates higher or lower than a Royal, go with tradition. It's easier to manipulate a paytable than to explain to the masses the mathematical reasoning of why traditional poker rankings don't apply to your game.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
