AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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November 28th, 2010 at 3:52:51 PM permalink
Played poker last night and two questions came up when discussing it with the buddy I went with. Situations are as follows.

After 15 minutes I tagged the guy to my left as the sucker at the table. Post-session my buddy agreed the guys play was terrible but also that the player was a total jagoff. Our biggest problem with him was his attitude towards the players and dealers. Instead of saying "check" he would say something like "go ahead." But we disagreed on a point of order. Anytime I play poker and check I give a table-tap just like "hit" at a BJ table. I stated I thought that was required for the eye. My buddy said no, verbal only is OK in the poker room. Looking back I am not sure if I was told to tap or simply picked it up by watching. So, are the hand signals required in the poker room or not so much.

Second thing only I noticed. The dealer had a semi-misdeal. Kind of gave three cards to the first two people. So he asked a player to slide the card for the player's left to him. The player sternly refused, stating last time such a thing happened his hand was declared "dead" after he had put money into the pot. At least several people at the table heard the dealer ask this player to move the card. If we assume most players will be honest if the floorman asked and the eye could establish the guy could have not have seen the car, would the player be able to get some kind of satisfaction if there was a complaint after he did what the delaer asked? (Or how would you rule as a floorman?)
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Wizard
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Wizard
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November 28th, 2010 at 4:02:47 PM permalink
I'm not a good one to ask questions about the fine points of poker rules and etiquette. Hopefully somebody else can help.
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TheNightfly
TheNightfly
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November 28th, 2010 at 4:13:14 PM permalink
When it is a player's turn to act and the action has been checked around, that player has only 2 options; check or bet. A player may make a verbal signal or use a hand signal for either. If the player wishes to bet he may declare his bet by saying, "Fifty bucks" or some such amount. Verbal bets are binding assuming that the player has sufficient chips to cover their bet. The player may also bet by simply placing any number of chips over the line (assuming it is No Limit) or whatever the bet amount would be for that street (assuming Limit). Some poker rooms have very strict rules regarding how a player may act when placing chips over the line as some players "horse" or attempt to gain information from the players to their left by faking a move or implying that they will bet when having no intention to do so. In this case, some poker rooms rule that any movement of chips toward the line is binding and any chips over the line must remain in the pot. Different rooms have different rules so it's best to ask. When a player wishes to check, they may do so by tapping the table, waving their hand or even just pointing to the player on their left. Verbal checks can be indicated by a variety of words including, but not limited to, "Check", "Go", "Pass", "I'm good" "Next" and just about anything that player feels will get the message across. It is up to the dealer to control the game and let the next player know that the action is now on them. If there is a dispute then if the dealer cannot sort things out they'll defer to the floor.

There are many ways a misdeal can be declared but again it is up to the dealer to rule on the situation before the floor is called. If 3 cards are dealt to two players and the dealer and players agree that no cards have been seen then the dealer will simply ask the players to slide cards over or do it themselves. If any card is exposed out of the first 2 cards dealt the hand is dead and the deck will be shuffled again before the deal can take place. If more than one card is exposed at any time during the deal the hand is dead and again there will be a shuffle and new deal.
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mkl654321
mkl654321
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November 28th, 2010 at 4:34:22 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Played poker last night and two questions came up when discussing it with the buddy I went with. Situations are as follows.

After 15 minutes I tagged the guy to my left as the sucker at the table. Post-session my buddy agreed the guys play was terrible but also that the player was a total jagoff. Our biggest problem with him was his attitude towards the players and dealers. Instead of saying "check" he would say something like "go ahead." But we disagreed on a point of order. Anytime I play poker and check I give a table-tap just like "hit" at a BJ table. I stated I thought that was required for the eye. My buddy said no, verbal only is OK in the poker room. Looking back I am not sure if I was told to tap or simply picked it up by watching. So, are the hand signals required in the poker room or not so much.

Second thing only I noticed. The dealer had a semi-misdeal. Kind of gave three cards to the first two people. So he asked a player to slide the card for the player's left to him. The player sternly refused, stating last time such a thing happened his hand was declared "dead" after he had put money into the pot. At least several people at the table heard the dealer ask this player to move the card. If we assume most players will be honest if the floorman asked and the eye could establish the guy could have not have seen the car, would the player be able to get some kind of satisfaction if there was a complaint after he did what the delaer asked? (Or how would you rule as a floorman?)



It doesn't seem relevant whether the player in question was "the sucker" or not. The question was, was his check unequivocal? Verbal actions are binding in such a case, as would be tapping the table. The eye in the sky isn't the arbiter--the dealer is. If he feels the player's action was ambiguous, he should stop the action to clarify. The player would probably get away with withdrawing an ambiguous action ONCE.

The player in your second example was out of line. If none of the cards had been exposed, then he should simply slide one card over like the dealer asked him to--otherwise his hand would be dead anyway. The reason he gave for refusing was almost certainly bogus.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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November 28th, 2010 at 4:48:59 PM permalink
A-

Verbal statements are binding. Saying "Go ahead" is acceptable, since it's meaning is obviously equal to "Check".

Sometimes I give a hand signal of a thumb pointing to the next player. That too is understood to mean "Check".

Surveillance wants clear hand signals at regular table games, to make sure the dealer is correctly running the game and paying or taking the bets accordingly. Since poker is person vs person, the house's only interest is the rake, making the surveillance a far less important activity.


B-

Misdeals are sometimes handled differently in different poker rooms. Usually, if the dealer knows exactly what went wrong and can fix it, then the players should comply with the dealer's instructions. If a player disagrees with a dealer's instruction, a floorperson should be called to settle it.
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Croupier
Croupier
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November 28th, 2010 at 11:04:56 PM permalink
The thing with poker is you could ask 10 different Card Room Supervisors the same question, and get 10 different answers. If these happened at the Casino where I work, in the Card Room I occasionally supervise and deal in, These would be my rulings:

1: for a check, hand signals may be used, but any Verbal Declaration is binding. At any hand signal "Check" should be annouced by the dealer and if there is no verbal reply it is taken as such. This is to cover the player if he is not paying attention and does not realise the action is with him.

2: This is a straight misdeal and reshuffle. If someone is found to have more than the set number of cards after action has taken place then the hand is declared dead and anything that player has put in the pot is forfeit..
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Zcore13
Zcore13
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November 29th, 2010 at 10:21:23 AM permalink
At my casino a verbal statement is binding in poker and play continues based on the verbal statement. There are no house funds at risk in poker so that is why verbal statements are permisable as compared to Blackjack where hand signals are needed.

The second situation is a little tougher. If the player is refusing to comply with the Dealer instructions and/or is being a jerk and I was called over, I would ask the player to comply or rack up his chips and leave. To get around this the player could just say he looked at his card and this would not allow for a movement of the cards back to where they belong. If he's not that smart and just wants to see who's going to win the battle between him and the Dealer, he's going to lose.
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.

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