Poker Guilt

I confess. I can't play poker against other players. I can play against a computer, or against family and friends for tiny stakes, but going to a poker room and actually pitting myself against total strangers is out of the question. Why? ... GUILT.

It's never fun losing but if you gamble you learn to accept it. I do insist, however, that I have a fun time if I'm winning. I can take the money from a faceless house all day long and laugh while I do it. But if I'm on a winning streak against fellow players I can only wonder about how miserable I'm making them. Is the lady sitting across from me losing her rent money? Is the man next to me wagering with his kid's college fund? Will the big guy who looks frustrated/borderline angry confront me in the parking lot? I suppose this is one of the reasons that I'm gravitating towards Pai Gow Poker where player vs player showdowns can usually be avoided.

Does anyone else here suffer from poker guilt? Is there a cure? Or should I just keep the empathy I was born with intact and stick to playing against the house?

I would love to suffer through something like that

Play UTH, you play against the dealer, not other players so you can essentially expose your cards to the other players which will have zero outcome of what the dealer will do. . Essentially it's no hold'em fold'em, so no shame in being guilty when you win with 7-2 off suit.

Poker is a recreational game. No one is forcing these people to play.

If you are a good player, you can think of yourself as providing a service to losing players who choose to use their extra money and time to try to beat the odds. In fact, ethically you owe these people the duty of playing your best personal game because that is what they came for—a challenging game.

Many losing poker players are wealthy and successful in business and the professions. I would not feel bad about "taking" anyone's money at a legal and licensed poker room.

As an added benefit, your presence at the game is also contributing to jobs for the dealers, cocktail waitresses, porters, janitors, floormen, security guards, restaurant workers who deliver to the room, etc.

And let's not forget the Chinese prison workers who are making the playing cards.

Quote: Vegasrider

Play UTH, you play against the dealer, not other players so you can essentially expose your cards to the other players which will have zero outcome of what the dealer will do. . Essentially it's no hold'em fold'em, so no shame in being guilty when you win with 7-2 off suit.

Not sure why anyone would feel shame or guilt winning with a 7-2. That should be an in your face celibration moment. Especially, if you just got some knit off his A-X starting hand B/C the flop and turn came up blank for him.


The question the OP should be asking himself, do the other players feel bad for him when they do him in? I bet the percentage is low. He needs to adapt that attitude to his game or just don't play.


All's fair in love, war and poker.

I will admit, I have slow played (not slow-rolled) guy's I know at the table.

It's not that fun busting a buddy. However, you can't just give them free money.

p.s whomever told him to play UTH.
Unless you are doing something extra you can't gain an advantage. That's why I dislike that suggestion.
However it's obviously better than TH if you are going to play soft poker.


p.s.s. Tell the OP to come play with me, I will harden him up real quick(NOHOMO).

In UTH, there are advantages knowing that certain cards are NOT in play for the dealer. For instance, in situations when it comes down to calling with your high card, especially if the board is paired. I don’t make it a habit of exposing my cards to other players, especially since I normally sit at 3rd base. But others will commonly turn their hands over , whether they are showing on purpose or just asking for advice. I have exclusively given up playing live and have been playing UTH about 5 nights a week with positive results.

When I used to play limit Hold'em, I felt like other players were just playing a live card version of a slot machine: keep putting money in and see if they hit something. If they connected on the flop, they'd stay in to see everything. So in a way, it wasn't like they were playing against other people—it was like they were trying to win the money that other people lost in the "slot machine." A convoluted thought, I'll admit.

As far as "real" poker play, I lost a lot making stupid decisions—but I learned the hard way, and became a better player. Think of it this way: Winning from people who play but don't have the skill is just like winning against someone who registered for a tennis tournament, but is bad at tennis. Also twisted logic?

Quote: Vegasrider

In UTH, there are advantages knowing that certain cards are NOT in play for the dealer. For instance, in situations when it comes down to calling with your high card, especially if the board is paired. I don’t make it a habit of exposing my cards to other players, especially since I normally sit at 3rd base. But others will commonly turn their hands over , whether they are showing on purpose or just asking for advice. I have exclusively given up playing live and have been playing UTH about 5 nights a week with positive results.

Wonderful. I know it helps you and there is a possible advantage.

Can you explain more.....

Whats your over all advantage using this method? If you can, give me a percentage and explain the math and logic.

Thanks in advance.

No reason to feel guilt. The only time I feel any guilt is when my BB of 10 5 wins over JJ, but then I quickly get over it when I think if they played the hand correctly then I never would have won.

Quote: GWAE

No reason to feel guilt. The only time I feel any guilt is when my BB of 10 5 wins over JJ, but then I quickly get over it when I think if they played the hand correctly then I never would have won.

You quickly get over it when you buy your kids some soda(Jolt) and Pop Rocks with the money you won.


I know you were playing a lot of poker at one time as a new NL player and doing well. We haven't heard any more regarding this.

???

Poker is war. You don’t feel guilty for taking your enemies means of production. That’s tantamount to treason. Besides, if the sheep at the table didn’t give their money to me, they’d just give it to someone else or the house.

I remember a mailer I got about 10 years ago from Borgata for their poker room. It went something like this:

Quote:

1 - Play poker.
2 - Make new friends.
3 - Take their money.

Bottom line, there's no need to feel guilty when you win at poker. Even if it was a sick suck out.

If you are playing for recreation and not having fun, then you should stop.

Empathy is a valuable characteristic. If what you are doing makes you feel bad, then do something that you will enjoy instead.

It is certainly possible that the other players are in a bad way, drunk, addicted to gambling, or a couple of nuns trying to catch up on their losses so they can pay back the milk money they've absconded with from the school they worked at.

None of that is our fault. However, if we know their circumstances, and take advantage of their weakness, our actions are no longer "fun". We are a step closer to the guys who steal the Christmas decorations off other people's lawns, reasoning "if they didn't want me to take it, they wouldn't have left it out".

Quote: Ayecarumba

If you are playing for recreation and not having fun, then you should stop.

Empathy is a valuable characteristic. If what you are doing makes you feel bad, then do something that you will enjoy instead.

It is certainly possible that the other players are in a bad way, drunk, addicted to gambling, or a couple of nuns trying to catch up on their losses so they can pay back the milk money they've absconded with from the school they worked at.

None of that is our fault. However, if we know their circumstances, and take advantage of their weakness, our actions are no longer "fun". We are a step closer to the guys who steal the Christmas decorations off other people's lawns, reasoning "if they didn't want me to take it, they wouldn't have left it out".

Not to hijack, but re: the milk money nuns. That was a real jaw-dropper for me last week.

Poker. They say, you don't play the cards, you play the people. And I have some friends here who do a special side bet while playing, paid when someone wins with 72o. Inherently, that's a bonus for putting one over on the others, because who stays with it pre-flop?

Point being, the best face I can put on poker is that sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you. You have to find some enjoyment in either, like a person who can laugh when they're pranked, or you won't enjoy the game.

Whether someone can afford to sit there isn't up to you. They're there, it's their money, and it could even be a faked persona to affect your play if they're trying to get you to feel sorry for them.

FWIW, I had to get past that, too.

Quote: unJon

Poker is war. You don’t feel guilty for taking your enemies means of production. That’s tantamount to treason. Besides, if the sheep at the table didn’t give their money to me, they’d just give it to someone else or the house.

Well said! The other players are trying to take your money and won't feel guilty about it if they do. If they are playing with rent money, that is their problem, not yours.

Quote: AxelWolf

You quickly get over it when you buy your kids some soda(Jolt) and Pop Rocks with the money you won.


I know you were playing a lot of poker at one time as a new NL player and doing well. We haven't heard any more regarding this.

???

I actually played this morning for 4 hours. 2am until 6, then went to work 630 till 2pm

Did well. I like playing and would keep playing but I dont have the bankroll to play successfully . I learned that it was tough to do coin flips when you are not adequately rolled. Things like Qq vs AK when you are only 55/45. Prettt big edge when you have the money but hard to call an all in pre.

I've supported myself playing poker and I've certainly felt this at times. Philosophically, I agree that it is a voluntary activity and you're not really doing anything very bad.

However, to give an example, I remember this mediocre regular who was talking about donating plasma and stuff and really struggling with money. He shouldn't have been playing, but... he is not a very smart guy. I really had no desire to take his money. But I was also a little angry with him for sitting down at the table and putting the other players in that position.

You can certainly argue that taking advantage of drunks, addicts and people who are some mix of ignorant, stupid and delusional is immoral. This idea that everyone who walks into a casino is just horsing around with extra pocket money is a fantasy.

Gambling is like prostitution or drugs. On the one hand, people should be able to do what they want. On the other hand, they are dirty businesses in which weak and damaged people are exploited. If you work in such a business, I think it's best to just come to terms with that, though many people are perfectly capable of lying to themselves about it for decades.

AP vs. the casino is "cleaner" than working for the house or beating suckers directly. It's more like Omar robbing drug dealers on The Wire.

Quote: sodawater

Poker is a recreational game. No one is forcing these people to play.

If you are a good player, you can think of yourself as providing a service to losing players who choose to use their extra money and time to try to beat the odds. In fact, ethically you owe these people the duty of playing your best personal game because that is what they came for—a challenging game.

Many losing poker players are wealthy and successful in business and the professions. I would not feel bad about "taking" anyone's money at a legal and licensed poker room.

As an added benefit, your presence at the game is also contributing to jobs for the dealers, cocktail waitresses, porters, janitors, floormen, security guards, restaurant workers who deliver to the room, etc.

And let's not forget the Chinese prison workers who are making the playing cards.

I don't generally buy the argument that hosing recreational players is doing them a service. Yeah, maybe if some rich guy wants to challenge himself against Tom Dwan for some dumb reason. But 99% of recs would be happier just pushing money back and forth between themselves with no pros or semi-pros eating up their chips.

I agree about the employees. IF, of course, you are an adequate tipper. I'll never tip as much as some drunk tourist, but if someone is performing work for me and I have been designated to compensate them, I will do so fairly.

If you don't, all of those people would be better off if you weren't there.

Quote: Gialmere

I confess. I can't play poker against other players. I can play against a computer, or against family and friends for tiny stakes, but going to a poker room and actually pitting myself against total strangers is out of the question. Why? ... GUILT.

It's never fun losing but if you gamble you learn to accept it. I do insist, however, that I have a fun time if I'm winning. I can take the money from a faceless house all day long and laugh while I do it. But if I'm on a winning streak against fellow players I can only wonder about how miserable I'm making them. Is the lady sitting across from me losing her rent money? Is the man next to me wagering with his kid's college fund? Will the big guy who looks frustrated/borderline angry confront me in the parking lot? I suppose this is one of the reasons that I'm gravitating towards Pai Gow Poker where player vs player showdowns can usually be avoided.

Does anyone else here suffer from poker guilt? Is there a cure? Or should I just keep the empathy I was born with intact and stick to playing against the house?

i call it empathy

Quote: heatmap

i call it empathy

But should I keep the empathy or adopt a live and let die philosophy?

To poker, or not to poker, that is the question.

Quote: Gialmere

But should I keep the empathy or adopt a live and let die philosophy?

To poker, or not to poker, that is the question.

Did you force them by gun or take their hand and put it into their pockets to get money and force the money out of their hands?

Gambling is a choice and I don’t care what people say because they made it

How many hours of play can you get at a poker table before another player mugs you in the parking lot vs. how many hours of blackjack can you play before you get trespassed? I'd say the casino is angry and losing and kicking people out. Play poker, and the house isn't really involved in your winning streak.

Quote: Gialmere

But should I keep the empathy or adopt a live and let die philosophy?

To poker, or not to poker, that is the question.

When someone plays poker against better players, they are likely to lose. But, that is also how players improve: by playing against better players. Serious players (should) understand they improve their game, not by robbing the fish, but by challenging better players.

So, by taking money from other players, you are helping them to improve their skill level. By all means, continue to help them out.

empathy stops at when they buy into the table

nothing personal, strictly business

I busted some dude that had AA on a 27x flop when I called 27o preflop a long time ago. He was mad but what can you do?

I busted some dude that had TT against a Qxx flop when I shoved JJ (I had some knowledge he was going to call light). After that hand he went to the podium to clock into work as the manager, who probably makes less than the amount I won in that hand, per day. What can you do?

I kept taking money from this lady who got angry and walked out of the poker room. She seemed like the type that expected guys to play soft against her, what can you do?

Quote: ChumpChange

How many hours of play can you get at a poker table before another player mugs you in the parking lot vs. how many hours of blackjack can you play before you get trespassed? I'd say the casino is angry and losing and kicking people out. Play poker, and the house isn't really involved in your winning streak.

That's an interesting way to look at it. Even when I was young and playing for peanuts at 2 and 3 dollar Blackjack tables I would often have some casino floorman looking over my shoulder (at 3rd base) because I was playing correctly and winning. It's weird; if I'm at a Blackjack table, and another player is losing in obvious misery, it doesn't bother me at all. I take the "it ain't my problem" view and, if anything, get annoyed at the interruption. So it's not like I'm Mr. Rogers at the casino.

The parking lot scenario, however, does worry me. I had a friend who worked as a security guard at the Normandy Casino in LA and he had many horror stories to tell.

No poker guilt because at the end of the day, I am competitive by nature and if you're a grown man or woman and think you can beat me or anyone else, let's play and have fun while we prove it to each other.

Do I have a heart? Of course. I feel sympathy or pity for someone. But I had nothing to do with that person's choice to play. If they gamble away their mortgage payment to me, that's not my fault. I may help them to get help if it seems like they have a gambling problem but some people refuse help nowadays and have to want to save themselves.

If you really feel lousy after playing against your fellow human, maybe you shouldn't. After all, it can affect your game and you will be the one that ends up losing money where someone will feel sorry for you!

Quote: beachbumbabs

And I have some friends here who do a special side bet while playing, paid when someone wins with 72o. Inherently, that's a bonus for putting one over on the others, because who stays with it pre-flop?

This month I won a poker tournament where, on the last hand, I called my opponent's all-in with 74o. He had AJo. I made a straight on the river to win the hand and the tournament. Of course, weird things happen when you get down to two-handed.

Now, my friends in my local poker community are calling me "Seven-Four."

On the issue of poker guilt, I do sometimes feel a twinge of guilt after winning a hand depending upon whether I know the opponent and the circumstances. But it almost always passes very quickly, lol. After all, its on to the next hand -and I need to concentrate on that hand!

Quote: TomG

I would love to suffer through something like that

Me tooooooo.

You can always give some of the money away in charitable ways, whether charity or some little old lady who has nobody and nothing. Robin Hood can be your hero.

I sympathize with you, I would not want to suffer through such

I don't believe, for a second, that anyone has ever felt guilty for beating me and taking the pot. I do think your chances are better on a cruise ship casino than on a land based one because you won't run across anyone who does it for a living.

Feelings of guilt...neverl. Besides, I make my living in the real worl and the game is just a distraction :-)

Quote: Lovecomps

... on a cruise ship casino ... you won't run across anyone who does it for a living.

Assume nothing. Pros can qualify for a free cruise, just like non-pros.

I was playing UTH in Biloxi and the player next to me was betting greens & blacks, including the Trips bet. Someone else joined the table and immediately complimented that player on winning the poker tournament earlier that day, a win of about $5K. (The new guy finished sixth.)

In casual table discussion, the guy on my left indicated he made his living playing poker and UTH, winning more often than otherwise. That next week he was scheduled to leave New Orleans for a free cruise, but lamented that he would miss a desirable poker tournament while he cruised.

IMHO, poker players on that cruise were in for a surprise. And, why not? Wouldn't one expect lower-skilled, relatively rich poker players who were just sitting ducks, waiting for someone like him to take their money?

No poker guilt involved on land or at sea.