MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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January 11th, 2017 at 12:01:28 AM permalink
It looks like heads-up NLHE has been cracked. It's not much of a leap to n-player games, I'd think, once you have the basic bet evaluation code working. I wouldn't play online for significant money any longer, not without anti-bot safeguards...

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/10/two-research-teams-taught-their-ais-to-beat-pros-at-poker/
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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January 11th, 2017 at 12:10:18 AM permalink
I'm a little skeptical that a bot could beat "high level" players by that much. My understanding, is that the best HU NLHE players were already somewhat close to being perfect, and separated by a BB here and there.

"and AI researcher Noam Brown said last March there's "no chance" no-limit hold'em will be solved in our lifetime."

I also have heard several people say something to this effect. I know that the authors do not claim to have solved the game, but they do suggest that they are far ahead of any human.
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
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January 11th, 2017 at 7:23:57 AM permalink
42,000 hands is way too small of a sample. I do believe within a few years the bots will consistently beat the top pros.
Romes
Romes
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January 11th, 2017 at 7:36:13 AM permalink
Bots will never beat the top pro's... There is an article that we're going to discuss on GWAE. I've played with bots since 2006, and being a programmer I at least have an idea of how they're being programmed (that doesn't give me an edge alone it just enables me to discuss it much better).

Anyways, I'll get in to a lot more detail on the show, but humans will always find a way to beat the bots. 1 time and 42k hands is variance.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff 
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January 11th, 2017 at 9:33:20 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

1 time and 42k hands is variance.

And the Bot knows that! Bots are programmed to sometimes bluff and sometimes not bluff... teh bot knows that an always bluff and always be 'tight' are losing strategies.
The bots algorithms are not always Greedy Algorithms. If you are a programmer you may soon have a profitable 'bot' playing while you sleep just as some programmers have a profitable 'bot' making BitCoins while they sleep.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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January 11th, 2017 at 10:33:50 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Bots will never beat the top pro's... There is an article that we're going to discuss on GWAE. I've played with bots since 2006, and being a programmer I at least have an idea of how they're being programmed (that doesn't give me an edge alone it just enables me to discuss it much better).

Anyways, I'll get in to a lot more detail on the show, but humans will always find a way to beat the bots.

I disagree. I think the distinction between limit HE and NLHE is just one of scale, not of quality, and limit HE is a solved problem. In other words, there is already software out there that, for heads-up play in limit hold'em, the best human in the world cannot beat.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6218/145.full
http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca/about
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
WatchMeWin
WatchMeWin
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January 11th, 2017 at 11:30:14 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

It looks like heads-up NLHE has been cracked. It's not much of a leap to n-player games, I'd think, once you have the basic bet evaluation code working. I wouldn't play online for significant money any longer, not without anti-bot safeguards...

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/10/two-research-teams-taught-their-ais-to-beat-pros-at-poker/



It is scary to see how technology and Robots / AI have developed so rapidly in such a short period of time over the past decade. The human race is in serious jeopardy in the future. Future generations will have limited work, limited privacy, and ultimately limited control over their lives. It is happening. If you have children, make sure they study computer science!

Regarding the AI poker... Im assuming it was played online? I dont trust any games online to start so I it is hard to ration what a bot would do in a live game with humans.... but I dont think we have to worry about them playing in casinos...just yet!
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
rxwine
rxwine
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January 11th, 2017 at 11:55:50 AM permalink
Just adding, Chess AI didn't need to be "solved" to beat humans. Just needs to play better than the best.
prisoner of gravity
DRich
DRich
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January 11th, 2017 at 12:28:01 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Just adding, Chess AI didn't need to be "solved" to beat humans. Just needs to play better than the best.



Exactly!! And we know that chess can eventually be solved but I don't know that NLH can be solved.
Romes
Romes
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January 11th, 2017 at 12:31:48 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I disagree. I think the distinction between limit HE and NLHE is just one of scale, not of quality, and limit HE is a solved problem. In other words, there is already software out there that, for heads-up play in limit hold'em, the best human in the world cannot beat.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6218/145.full
http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca/about

I do actually agree about fixed games... As most bot computations become much more exploitable in NL =).
Playing it correctly means you've already won.

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