So did I screw up or would you have done the same?

Okay so, I think I'm slowly improving my game, but I need some advice on this play and what to do next time I'm in a similar situation. So here goes: last week I was in a rebuy/add on tournament with 50 players with 5k chips per buy (so 5k to start with, another 5k available upon entering, and a 5k add-on available at first break.), and I make the final table. I have 32k at this point, two people have less than me, but the rest of the table had at least 70k or more. Blinds were 3,000/6,000, I was 3rd or 4th to act at a 10 player table, and everybody folded before me so I shoved preflop with A-Q OS and got beat with A-K OS. My thinking at the time was "I need to double up fast or I'm dead next time the blinds go up". Basically, did I jump the gun shoving on that or would you guys have done the same? I've noticed a big problem I still have is that I tend to overreact to my stack being low at times like that and I'd really like some feedback here. Thanks!

I think you're right about the timing. You maybe could have seen the flop and bailed if it was scary (KKx or something), but I don't think that would have made things better in this case - you'd bet into a blank flop with 2 big overs, and lose to someone with bigger overs anyway.

There is almost no way to overreact to having only 5 big blinds left. Your only choices are to fold or shove. There's no way you're going to fold AQ with an unraised pot, so...

I did not vote in your poll, because there is no option for "obviously correct". What happened to you is not a bad beat, it was just poker.

Quote: PapaChubby

There is almost no way to overreact to having only 5 big blinds left. Your only choices are to fold or shove. There's no way you're going to fold AQ with an unraised pot, so...

I did not vote in your poll, because there is no option for "obviously correct". What happened to you is not a bad beat, it was just poker.

I concur with this 100%, obviously correct. You got dealt the 18th best starting hand, you have five Big Blinds left, the Blinds are going to go up...you really don't have the luxury of waiting for a better hand than that.

Thanks guys I really appreciate it! I feel like I'm really getting the hang of the game now and I'm entering HPT when it comes my way in October for sure! Glad I made a good move and went out playing right, that's all I needed to know!

Quote: Zer0

Okay so, I think I'm slowly improving my game, but I need some advice on this play and what to do next time I'm in a similar situation. So here goes: last week I was in a rebuy/add on tournament with 50 players with 5k chips per buy (so 5k to start with, another 5k available upon entering, and a 5k add-on available at first break.), and I make the final table. I have 32k at this point, two people have less than me, but the rest of the table had at least 70k or more. Blinds were 3,000/6,000, I was 3rd or 4th to act at a 10 player table, and everybody folded before me so I shoved preflop with A-Q OS and got beat with A-K OS. My thinking at the time was "I need to double up fast or I'm dead next time the blinds go up". Basically, did I jump the gun shoving on that or would you guys have done the same? I've noticed a big problem I still have is that I tend to overreact to my stack being low at times like that and I'd really like some feedback here. Thanks!

You're only other real option was going to be to fold. Something to think about (but not advising it)If you had good reason to believe there was an aggressive bully left to act, you could've limped in, hoping he would try to steal the pot with an inferior hand. In this case, it's the same outcome, because someone had the goods.

Not sure what each additional level was paying, that's a factor you have to consider. But you explain to us how would've you played it different and why?

Are you really going to fold AQ in that situation, waiting for others to get picked off? Given the information you provided, I would've probably done the same thing. Had you folded the hand, it doesn't mean you would've gained a better spot.

It's just bad timing.

Can't vote because you don't have a choice for 100% correct move. The only thing that stands out to me is, how conservative were you earlier in the game to cause you to be in that condition. You should not be doubting if that was the right move at that time is the only reason why I bring that up.

5bb

Middle position

AQ

Everything looks like a shove to me, unless you know everyone after you is passive, even then id still shove being as you would scoop 1.5 bb if everyone folds. I dont have pokerstove but against any pp below AQ it might be a coinflip. Better to make late position think about calling your raise then to call yourself in this position.

Edit: actually you are about 44% to win but still risking 5bb to win 1.5 uncontested which happens more often then running into the favorite.

Agreed, gotta shove. The only time that I wouldn't shove is if I am on the bubble. Even then it is probably a good choice but that is just my style.

Quote: djatc

Edit: actually you are about 44% to win but still risking 5bb to win 1.5 uncontested which happens more often then running into the favorite.

Actually, 44% to win against a pocket pair. Only 24% against AK.


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I think you did the right thing, but I still think you have a problem with your game.

Look again at the poll choices. Then look at how many people say they didn't vote because the choice for 'you did the right thing' or something similar, isn't there.

The closest option is "bad beat".

This ain't a bad beat!

You picked a good spot to go all in, but were unfortunate enough to not only not be ahead, but be up against a dominating hand. It wasn't even a coin flip, yet you seem to think it was a bad beat.

I just meant "bad beat" as in I had a good hand and got unlucky that somebody had a better one, I guess that's not really a bad beat though.

Quote: Zer0

I just meant "bad beat" as in I had a good hand and got unlucky that somebody had a better one, I guess that's not really a bad beat though.

But AQ US isnt even that great of a hand. A lot of people think that it is but when you are a coin flip against 22, then there is quite a lot that can go wrong. Like I said, I would have shoved but only hoping for no calls and to pick up ante and blinds. As soon as someone called I would have been thinking about what I would do with the rest of my day.

5 big blinds left, you either go all in or fold. You're not folding AQ heads-up preflop in that spot. Just bad luck that you ran into AK.

Most of the time, you're gonna pick up those blinds. Occasionally you're gonna get called by AJ, A10, KQ, or a pocket pair of JJ or lower, all of these situations you love. And sometimes you'll get called by AK, QQ, KK or AA. As they say, that's poker.

Quote: GWAE

But AQ US isnt even that great of a hand. A lot of people think that it is but when you are a coin flip against 22, then there is quite a lot that can go wrong. Like I said, I would have shoved but only hoping for no calls and to pick up ante and blinds. As soon as someone called I would have been thinking about what I would do with the rest of my day.

AQ is just fine when you're heads-up for your tournament life. The only hands you really don't want to see are AA, KK, QQ and AK. The range of hands they can call you with, especially for only 5 big blinds, includes a lot of hands where AQ is fantastic. Even if you're in a coin-flip situation, you're getting better than 6:5 on your money, so you're not too upset, as long as you're more than 43% to win. AQ against JJ is right on the fence.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Actually, 44% to win against a pocket pair. Only 24% against AK.


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Right however he didn't know what the remaining players had. What are the odds someone reaming had a better hand than he did?

You may be able to exclude small PP'S, because there's a chance someone might lay them down facing an all in, in that situation. There's no way for us to know that.

The OP probably made the right play, but the question is, did he do it for the right reasons?

He said, he's trying to improve his game, so whomever said, he still has some learning to do, I think he knows that, that's why he is here asking.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

This ain't a bad beat!

You picked a good spot to go all in,...

Yeah, this.

The most important weapon in a NLHE tournament is not the cards in your hand. It is possible to play some tournaments effectively without looking at your cards, and probably a good idea to try sometime as a self-training or practice exercise. I know someone who did this to prove a point (and win a side bet). The most essential weapon in tournament play is your chip stack as a threat to cripple or kill others, and if it is allowed to dribble down to a point that it is no longer large enough that it can do this, you become the mouse in the snake pit. Your stack is already covered by most of the others at the table, and though it can still be a potential threat to some degree to some others the blinds that will be upon you shortly amount to nearly a third of your stack. And what will you be doing then? Would you ever be posting them & folding to a raise, to the tune of spewing > 28% of your chips, with the expectation that on the next orbit you will have no option at all when they come around again? How many times do you expect to be seeing AA/KK before that happens?

At the final table of a multi-table tourney, you probably are not there with a gaggle of "make-a-hand poker, limp-call pre-flop, then check-fold flop" donators. Assuming this rebuy event has a typical very top-heavy payout structure, and there have been a significant number of rebuys and practically everybody had enough sense to take the add-on, this is well beyond the "push or fold" threshold at which those are the only choices I'm considering; it is getting to the point when it will become necessary to shove all-in with any two random cards. I look down, squeeze, and yippee & hallelujah baby, AQo is way far beyond any two random cards and considerably above the range at which I'm prepared to shove. The real money in these things is in winning them, not in barely cashing. Time to double up and get big and mean, or check out the buffet. Eat or be eaten. When my shove is called, I expect to be ahead sometimes, dominated occasionally though not usually, and often a coin flip depending on the player type & stack size doing it. To get to the real money in larger MTTs that include people with a grasp of the vast differences between tournament poker vs. cash games will often involve being on the lucky side of a few coin flips or perhaps finding a lost horseshoe stuck in my @&& at some point.

Shove, and if called either pray or call for cocktails according to your preference. But as played in this spot there will be no whining allowed on the way to the buffet.

Quote: Deucekies

AQ is just fine when you're heads-up for your tournament life. The only hands you really don't want to see are AA, KK, QQ and AK. The range of hands they can call you with, especially for only 5 big blinds, includes a lot of hands where AQ is fantastic. Even if you're in a coin-flip situation, you're getting better than 6:5 on your money, so you're not too upset, as long as you're more than 43% to win. AQ against JJ is right on the fence.

I totally agree that it is fine, just saying that anyone to lose an all in with AQ should not be upset about it since it is no where close to a lock. I would personally still rather see the last 4 people fold and just take down the blinds.

When your all in is a raise of 5 big blinds, you should only raise if it's an all in. You played it right, in my opinion.

The best counter argument is that you could try and just wait it out until one of the other short stacks loses first. But AQ is quite strong, and you did fine. The blinds were very high.

OP,

Here is what you need to ask yourself when situations like this come up and you're wondering if you made the right play. Take an element out of Tommy Angelo's book "Elements of Poker" - that element is called Reciprocality.

Quote:

Reciprocality says that when you and your opponents would do
the same thing in a given situation, no money moves, and when
you do something different, it does.

All of your opponents would have played AQ the same and all of your opponents would have played AK the same. Nobody made a mistake.

Who ever picked call or raise but not shove is flat out wrong.

Depending on how many are paid here, I would shove very, very wide. Any ace, suited connectors any suited or decent king, and decent Q, any pair, etc should all shove. He'll there can even be a case made for shoving any two cards.

The only reason to fold would be a spot where like 6 or being paid, 7 are left and two players are going to have to play blinds when they have 3bbs or less. And if still probably shove AQ, but I could fold some suited connectors in that spot.

Shove here. Put me in the 'obviously correct' camp.

Need an option for "should have shoved" in the poll. Which is what you did. So you played it right and got beat. Pity, but you were on a hand and in a spot that justified the shove with blinds 3/6K. JMHO.

Take a look at this hand, that my friend got the short end of last night. Cash game in the wee hours.



He has A9. Flop is AA9. turn Q. river Q. They raise each other all the way to the river. Opponent has QQ. Fell into it. Best I can tell, 1 in 990 chance of him losing post-flop. (45,2 * 44,1) And look at the size of that pot. Talk about pain.

Feel better, OP?