Staff bonus

Hi,

Since this is the place where odds and edges are calculated:

Many tournaments offer extra chips for a slightly higher buy-in of $5 or $10, which don't go into the price pool but towards the staff. My guess it that is usually always the "right play" to take it, but can that be calculated, considering it's unknown how many other players take it?

Example (Venetian 7pm):

Buy-in: $100 + $15
Starting Chips: 5000
Bonus: 2500 in chips for $5

Robin

Quote: RoToRa

but can that be calculated, considering it's unknown how many other players take it?

Since it is obviously a gratuity pool for the dealers anyone buying in without opting for more chips for a paltry amount would be viewed as a non-tipping cheap little twit and I simply doubt that anyone fails to spring for the extra buyin, particularly since it gives him just that much more distance between "close to the felt" and "flat broke".

It would be like walking into a restaurant and announcing "I don't tip". I just can't see that happening.

Certainly, not at the Venetian's poker room. That is the number one room in town for luxurious splendor ... and I doubt you are going to be seeing competitors announce their too broke to spring for a five dollar tip pool.

I certainly didn't want to deny any one their tips. I was mostly interested in the mathematical aspect of my question.

Math?

5000 chips cost $115
2500 extra chips cost $5

Mathematically, it makes sense to purchase 50% more chips for as much as 50% of the buy-in. Bankroll management is another thing. But since you're getting 50% more chips for a mere 4.3% surcharge, the math becomes far more important than the bankroll. Do it.

A few years back, I got into a tournament at O'Sheas. It was either $30+$5 or $35+$5, but when I bought in, they gave me $5 less change than I expected. I asked where the other $5 was. They said that was for add-on chips, and he said he never saw anyone who didn't buy it. So I got it and then went on to win the tournament.

When they came to pay me, they brought two envelopes. One had my prize money, the other was empty, but marked "Tips". As one person was counting my money, another was tapping the tip envelope. Not at all subtle.

It was only years later, on this message board, that I realized that the extra $5 was for the dealers, so I was under no obligation to tip.

I almost thought it was so simple :-)

Thanks!

Quote: RoToRa

I certainly didn't want to deny any one their tips.

Oh we know that.

> I was mostly interested in the mathematical aspect of my question.
Well the math is basically that for all practical purposes 100 percent of the participants will opt for the extra chips, so there will never be any mathematical edge to accepting or declining the surcharge.

An empty folder marked tips? I would assume that is where you place your tip but have no idea if thats true or not.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Math?

It was only years later, on this message board, that I realized that the extra $5 was for the dealers, so I was under no obligation to tip.

Since it is a "tip" there should never be an obligation. However, it is my understanding that the winner of a tournament customarily puts forth the bulk of the tip (5% comes to mind), while others who finish in the money don't necessarily need to put in as big a percentage. It should be noted that I have never had the good fortune/skill to be in a position to have to work out this happy dilemma.

Since the add-on was compensated with more chips at the beginning of the tournament, I think it should be considered as part of the buy in, and not a gratuity (even though the card room may use it as such.)

Quote: Ayecarumba

Since the add-on was compensated with more chips at the beginning of the tournament, I think it should be considered as part of the buy in, and not a gratuity (even though the card room may use it as such.)

When considering the cost to enter the tourney and bankroll management, yeah, it's part of the buy-in. Then again, so is the casino's portion of the buy-in.

But, when you win the damn thing, and they start hustling for tips, it's time to remember that the extra $5 was already ear-marked as tips.

This practice reminds me of restaurants that will add a tip to your bill when you have a large party. Some people may not realize it was already added and others will feel obligated to leave something anyway. I mean how cheap do you look if you are picking up the tab for your family/friends and they are wondering to themselves "um, did he really just stiff the server"? You double tip to "save face" and they know it.

Quote: Lucyjr

This practice reminds me of restaurants that will add a tip to your bill when you have a large party. Some people may not realize it was already added and others will feel obligated to leave something anyway. I mean how cheap do you look if you are picking up the tab for your family/friends and they are wondering to themselves "um, did he really just stiff the server"? You double tip to "save face" and they know it.

I have never worked in food services, but I know people who do, and I have also witnessed this first hand. I believe they add in the tip for large parties, because otherwise the server gets stiffed a large percentage of the time. People have no problem leaving $5 on a $30 bill, but hand that same person a $300 bill for a party of 8, and they will leave $20. Human nature will not allow them to leave $50.
Also, there is no way a single server can handle a party of 10, and give them the same service they would have had as 2 or 3 separate tables. So the table 'feels' the service was sub par, and coupled with the large tab, would leave 5 to 10 percent.
My family and I were in a local bar-b-q that does not add the 18% large party tip and watched as our server was handling a large party next to us. There were 8 adults and 4 kids, and they were running him ragged with requests. They got their bill, left, and the server and manager came over to bus the table. It had been a large bill, and they had left very little or nothing for the tip. He was visibly upset and I over heard the manager say "Sorry, it happens sometimes."

We felt so bad for the kid we ended up tipping about $30 on a $50 bill. After that experience, I no longer object to the add on tip line. However, if I feel we are not getting decent service, I will bring that to the manager's attention, with a simple statement saying "I know we will be receiving an 18% tip on the bill, and I would appreciate getting 18% worth of service."

I don't know how poker tournaments are run but I assume that as tables close down due to players being eliminated some dealers may get sent home early so tip pools may take care of that, I don't know. Surely there are chip runners and clerks as well. The tip pool may be an added gratuity from all entrants but I'm not sure if the winner is properly considering himself as "I gave at the entry table".

This gets a hell of a lot more complex than this. Its actually extremely difficult to model equity in tournaments correctly. The Independent Chip Model is the most commonly used model and is far more useful than chip equity for tournaments.

Obviously, you take the add on here. For two reasons, the first is its will obviously show a profit and secondly the way in which you tip can take the add on in to account and essentially the extra chips are free. I don't tip nearly as much when I cash in a tournament with a staff add on.

I won't go into a ton of detail, because it gets messy for the purposes of tournament with large numbers of people, but its important to be aware that the 2500 in extra chips does not have half the value of the initial 5000 chips.

Again, obviously irrelevant here, but this is probably the biggest misconception about tournament poker and has a ton of implications.

Quote: FleaStiff

Well the math is basically that for all practical purposes 100 percent of the participants will opt for the extra chips, so there will never be any mathematical edge to accepting or declining the surcharge.

There's no doubt that all/most players buy the extra chips. But I wonder about no mathematical edge ...

If I had to sit down against, say, Negraneau, Lederer, Duke, Gowen (go Cowboys!), Durr, etc., I would rather do it with everyone having a smaller stack than a larger stack. It's the same principle as wanting to play a one-off game against a superior team rather than aa 7-game series. Anything can happen in 1 game; a long series gives the advantage to the better team ... or in this case, player(s).

Not that I would stand a chance at that table anyways ... just using it as an illustration.

So, if I was the best player, I'd want as many chips as possible to start with. If the worst, as few (assuming everyone else started with the same amount as me). But assuming everyone, better and worse, buys the chips, I'd rather start with the same amount than with fewer.

As for tipping, you can tip using any vehicle. You can throw $5 into the tip pool and just not accept the additional chips. Insane, maybe, but something you could do.