gambler
gambler
Joined: Jan 11, 2010
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 483
June 2nd, 2010 at 10:12:42 AM permalink
In Poker, Better to Be Lucky Than Good, Swiss Court Rules

Above is a link to an interesting article from the Wall Street Journal.

Basically, Switzerland's highest court, has decided that Texas Hold'em is more about luck then skill, and banned tournaments of the high-stakes poker game outside of casinos.

"Had the Swiss Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that Texas hold 'em was a game of skill, it would have permitted private competitions to continue. But it said simple math, tactics and psychology played smaller roles than luck in determining the winner.

The Texas hold 'em debate has also divided opinion in other countries. A Pennsylvania appeals court ruled 2-1 in March that it was illegal because it met the definition of gambling because the outcome is more dependent upon chance than skill. Many aficionados and self-styled "professionals'' disagree, however.

In Switzerland, games of luck such as roulette and slot machines are restricted to licensed casinos, which pay a hefty 50% tax on profits. Private organizers of poker games weren't paying those taxes, argued Marc Friedrich, head of the Swiss Federation of Casinos.

The Swiss court's decision cannot be appealed."

—Copyright 2010 Associated Press
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
June 2nd, 2010 at 10:23:57 AM permalink
That's ridiculous. All poker as played between people is a game of skill. Does luck have anything to do with it? Yes. But luck can influence other games, too. In Football, for example, a random bounce of a punt can cause a fumble and your team recovers with great field position. In poker you may get dealt a very high hand. But luck alone won't consistently win either game.

I concede luck is the major factor in games like Video poker, three card poker and such, although good strategy matters.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
June 2nd, 2010 at 10:37:31 AM permalink
luck is a huge factor in poker and its ridiculous to think otherwise. your equity can change drastically from one street to the next. you can run good or bad for years regardless of what decisions you make. it takes a few hundred thousand hands to reach any reasonable conclusion. most players are lucky if they even get in 5,000 hands a year. playing live poker fulltime at 35hands/hr, 40hrs a week, 50 weeks a year, you should get in about 60,000 hands. so it takes about 5yrs of playing fulltime to be able to accurately measure your winrate.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
June 2nd, 2010 at 10:57:52 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

luck is a huge factor in poker and its ridiculous to think otherwise.



When I played with my friends each week, I'd often win hands where I had absolutely nothing. Of course I knew them and I learned their style of play and tolerance to risk. But I won mostly through skill rather than luck.

If you win with a royal flush, that's luck. If you win with a nine high, that's skill.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
June 2nd, 2010 at 11:08:53 AM permalink
small sample size. doesnt mean anything. youre probably just recalling the times you got away with a bluff and not the times your bluff got called down. he couldve just as easily had called in this situation and youd feel like an idiot. get back to me when you log some more hands.

also knowing when to calldown with no pair is a lot more skillful than knowing when to bluff with no pair.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 172
  • Posts: 10022
June 2nd, 2010 at 11:16:30 AM permalink
Two of the most intillegent things I ever heard about poker:
Quote: Nareed

If you win with a royal flush, that's luck. If you win with a nine high, that's skill.

Quote: rudeboyoi

knowing when to calldown with no pair is a lot more skillful than knowing when to bluff with no pair.

But try telling it to the Swiss court that won't accept appeals...
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
Doc
Doc
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
  • Threads: 45
  • Posts: 6782
June 2nd, 2010 at 12:15:51 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

If you win with a nine high, that's skill.


I confess, I haven't played poker regularly in years. But I think that winning with a nine high likely involves a great deal of luck. Perhaps a different form of luck than luck of the deal.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
June 2nd, 2010 at 2:40:23 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

small sample size. doesnt mean anything. youre probably just recalling the times you got away with a bluff and not the times your bluff got called down.



Not at all. I played these three guys once a week for a year and a half. I knew all there was to know about them. I didn't win every hand, but overall I wound up ahead at least 75% of the time. Nor was it only bluffing. Sometimes I had a good hand and wanted them to either bet or raise. That also takes skill.

Quote:

also knowing when to calldown with no pair is a lot more skillful than knowing when to bluff with no pair.



I agree.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
konceptum
konceptum
Joined: Mar 25, 2010
  • Threads: 33
  • Posts: 790
June 2nd, 2010 at 11:18:16 PM permalink
Having played poker and been involved in poker tournaments, my two cents is that poker playing, at least ring games, does involve a lot of skill. Namely in bluffing and reading your opponents. However, the end game of tournaments relies a lot on luck.

At the end of a tournament, the blinds and the betting can be such that the players may be in the hand by default, or with such a minimal room to use any skills whatsoever, as to make bluffing virtually impossible. Thus, the end of the tournament could be considered luck.

Of course, GETTING to the end of the tournament could depend a lot on skill. I have seen players look at their first hand in a tournament, and then constantly fold the remainder of the tournament, not even looking at their cards, and still make it to the money. Or at least very close. If that's not lucky, I don't know what is.

The problem with Poker is that it does involve luck and it does involve skill. But as long as something has even a minute inkling of luck involved, the "authorities in the know" will consider it dangerous gambling.
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
  • Threads: 157
  • Posts: 8301
June 2nd, 2010 at 11:26:44 PM permalink
Yes, luck is involved, but a true "luck" game would be a lottery.
prisoner of gravity

  • Jump to: