Small pairs in NLHE

Help! Supposedly there is a place for small pairs, where they are worth almost exactly as much as AK or other high unsuited cards pre-flop. But then what? I am doing a miserable job of playing them, but I see others successfully staying on them and winning with pocket pair plus overpair or trips on the board. Short of flopping trips, how should they be bet?

Thanks in advance.

Oh No. Not again. Why do people ask such questions. Like there is a simple answer. Assuming cash and not tournanament ? What is your table image? What is your position and stack size ? Who is your opponent ? On and on and on and on !

In cash games I generally only play them in later positions if there has been no raises. Basically I am just hoping for trips and that someone in front of me bets.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Help! Supposedly there is a place for small pairs, where they are worth almost exactly as much as AK or other high unsuited cards pre-flop.

What are you reading to get these values?

Quote:

But then what? I am doing a miserable job of playing them, but I see others successfully staying on them and winning with pocket pair plus overpair or trips on the board. Short of flopping trips, how should they be bet?

Thanks in advance.

There are a million ways to play just about every hand. It depends on your opponents. Right now I gather that you are fairly new to the game and are playing against players more skilled than you. So, you are going to lose while you are learning. There are two approaches:

1. Play really tightly, especially out of position. This will limit your losses and you can slowly get better at the game.

2. Play for really small stakes, relative to what you can afford. I mean, really small. Like, so small that 10 buy-ins is irrelevant to you. Then, play really loosely. This will give you a lot of tough decisions and you can learn faster. You will lose a lot during this learning process though.

If I'm in a game against weak, unimaginitive players, I like to raise with small pairs and keep firing away until I meet some resistance, then re-evaluate. If I'm playing in a game against tough players, I like to get up and cash out.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

What are you reading to get these values?



There are a million ways to play just about every hand. It depends on your opponents. Right now I gather that you are fairly new to the game and are playing against players more skilled than you. So, you are going to lose while you are learning. There are two approaches:

1. Play really tightly, especially out of position. This will limit your losses and you can slowly get better at the game.

2. Play for really small stakes, relative to what you can afford. I mean, really small. Like, so small that 10 buy-ins is irrelevant to you. Then, play really loosely. This will give you a lot of tough decisions and you can learn faster. You will lose a lot during this learning process though.

If I'm in a game against weak, unimaginitive players, I like to raise with small pairs and keep firing away until I meet some resistance, then re-evaluate. If I'm playing in a game against tough players, I like to get up and cash out.

Sorry to have been so vague. AoC and Buzz understand, I think, that I am very much a newbie; accurate read there. I'm playing online tournaments. I'm generally limping in or in late position to call them (edit for clarity: with small pocket pairs). I'm trying to play tight-aggressive, folding about 3/4 of my hands, not going heavy unless I have a made hand, only very rare bluffing. It's working pretty well except for small pairs; I'm giving up winners when I fold them, and losing my a$$ when I go with them. I'm about done EVER betting them, but they can't be completely worthless; was looking for a suggestion on what to look for; some good ones above, thanks.

Depending on stack size, you're sometimes better off folding than limping in, unless it gets really multiway. If you're first to open in mid to late position, raise and hope to take down the pot without much of a fight. If you're shortstacked (~10 bbs or less generally) and first to open in mid/late position, then shove. I wouldn't call raises with small pairs unless both you and your opponent are quite deep (effective stacks of at least 10X the raise size).

Quote: beachbumbabs

Sorry to have been so vague. AoC and Buzz understand, I think, that I am very much a newbie; accurate read there. I'm playing online tournaments. I'm generally limping in or in late position to call them. I'm trying to play tight-aggressive, folding about 3/4 of my hands, not going heavy unless I have a made hand, only very rare bluffing. It's working pretty well except for small pairs; I'm giving up winners when I fold them, and losing my a$$ when I go with them. I'm about done EVER betting them, but they can't be completely worthless; was looking for a suggestion on what to look for; some good ones above, thanks.

Online is a whole different game, since much of the value of these cards is determined by your read of the players taking action ahead of you. In general, I like to be in late position, limp, then fold if I suspect any of the early callers is likely to have hit the flop with any of the typical pre-flop calling hands (A,rag; K, rag; J,10). I would automatically fold if the board flopped all paint.

I have also had success playing them like a big pair, and getting others to fold in the face of a big raise. Even if you get a caller, remember that heads up against two unpaired, unsuited, over cards, you actually have the slightly better odds of winning. If the board flops your set... whoo hoo! High risk, high reward.

NLHE cash game
small pairs, How I play them.
I almost allways play unless going up against a huge all in then I fold.
I allways limp in.
Will call any small raise
will call any moderate raise. Will call a big raise as long as its not heads up

Allways hoping to hit trips, if dont hit trips, may bluff or fold. If you dont hit your flop, really long odds to improve your hand.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Online is a whole different game, since much of the value of these cards is determined by your read of the players taking action ahead of you. In general, I like to be in late position, limp, then fold if I suspect any of the early callers is likely to have hit the flop with any of the typical pre-flop calling hands (A,rag; K, rag; J,10). I would automatically fold if the board flopped all paint.

I have also had success playing them like a big pair, and getting others to fold in the face of a big raise. Even if you get a caller, remember that heads up against two unpaired, unsuited, over cards, you actually have the slightly better odds of winning. If the board flops your set... whoo hoo! High risk, high reward.

Excellent advice, thanks! I will try this.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Sorry to have been so vague. AoC and Buzz understand, I think, that I am very much a newbie; accurate read there. I'm playing online tournaments. I'm generally limping in or in late position to call them (edit for clarity: with small pocket pairs). I'm trying to play tight-aggressive, folding about 3/4 of my hands, not going heavy unless I have a made hand, only very rare bluffing. It's working pretty well except for small pairs; I'm giving up winners when I fold them, and losing my a$$ when I go with them. I'm about done EVER betting them, but they can't be completely worthless; was looking for a suggestion on what to look for; some good ones above, thanks.

Are you getting paid off on your made hands? If not, then you should be bluffing more. If they will fold when you have a hand, they will fold when you don't.

I don't really play tournaments but here is how I approach cash games.

I'm folding small pairs in early position unless the situation is absolutely perfect. "Absolutely perfect" means that I am pretty confident that I can double up if I flop a set, even in an unraised pot. This requires opponents who will call pot-sized bets on every round with just a pair (not necessarily top pair). This is rare.

Against a tight raiser, I like to call a raise with a small pair, especially if he is the type of player who can't fold an overpair even when it's obviously beat. I'm just trying to get lucky and flop a set to beat him; I'm going away on the flop if I don't flop a set or maybe a straight draw. The stacks have to be big enough to make it worthwhile.

In general with 2 or fewer limpers behind me I will raise with the small pair in mid-late position, and I will bet almost any flop if checked to. This is often enough to take the pot down. If I meet resistance I will re-evaluate.

With a lot of limpers behind me, I may just limp along and see what happens.

In low-limit games, I find that the maniac image works pretty well. Raise a lot pre-flop, make pot-sized continuation bets. People know that you usually have nothing but a lot of players decide to combat this by just waiting for the nuts and then trying to stack you. They incorrectly assume that because you are betting so much you must be crazy, and because you are crazy you won't fold. Obviously you don't cooperate -- when they play back at you with the nuts you just fold. It's pretty hard to make the nuts so you win a lot more money than you lose by doing this. Good players will figure out that they need to play back at you without a hand fairly often. This is my cue to request a table change.

Axel must be reading this and wondering what the hell I am talking about. I played at the same table with him once and played all of 3 hands in 2 hours. Made a nice little profit too (the competition was not very tough). I hadn't planned on playing, so I didn't have any cash on me, so I was playing with Axel's money, which I really didn't want to lose (it also means I didn't keep any of the profit -- Axel had 100% of my action). Also I hadn't played poker in years so I wanted to get back into the feel of the game before I started firing away.

well, in a bit of irony, I just got busted out when pocket 2's tripped on the flop, and I was blinded all-in. lol...4th out of 390 wasn't bad, though.

Quote: beachbumbabs

well, in a bit of irony, I just got busted out when pocket 2's tripped on the flop, and I was blinded all-in. lol...4th out of 390 wasn't bad, though.

What is the buy in?

1000. 4th paid 25,900.

Most of the time limping PPs out of position is to set mine and get it in against a fish who overvalues his TPTK or to get a flush draw to commit on the flop. Another thing is to raise in position to get paid off more when you hit, or to call a cbet on the flop to take it down on the turn.

I've run into many scenarios where the following happens: Heads up against a guy who knows what he is doing, so he will cbet all flops with 2 overcards, then check/fold the turn. They will fold to a scary turn card, or anything that completes a flush/straight.

Setmining hits and you get it in the flop against TPTK, 2 pair, or TP+flush draw. I don't have poker stove anymore but the equity should favor you all the time, and even if you get sucked out on you got your money in good.

Set vs Set. I'm never folding a set against a dry board, so just chalk it up to variance.

This is all regarding cash games. As you get more insight and knowledge you will start to make moves that involve the player, and not the cards. I had a thinking player fold an all in against me on the flop with Qxx, because I knew for a fact he did not have a Q in his hand, or an overpair. I could get him to fold because while he had a pair (JJ I think) he would not commit all his chips because I exploited the fact he thought I was an ABC player. I would have had AQ, or Qx, whatever made 2 pair, or a set based on his logic. I think I had TT.

Quote: beachbumbabs

1000. 4th paid 25,900.

Real money?