Folding KK preflop?
1) Player A at early position bet $13
2) Me with the KK at the middle position popped it to $40
3) Player A re-popped it at $140. Only player A and me left in the pot.
4) I had about $280 left. I went all-in and player A called with AA
5) AA holds up
I asked a $1-3 professional grinder about the similar question. He told me to fold the KK.
But the majority of answers from the other poker forums told the players never fold KK.
Without much information about player A, I still think playing KK pre-flop is right move.
What is your suggestion?
However, I feel like people who fold KK are generally stronger players than people who don't. Doesn't mean that's the right thing to do though.
Quote: KickassI have the action like this at the live 1-3 NL hold'em table:
1) Player A at early position bet $13
2) Me with the KK at the middle position popped it to $40
3) Player A re-popped it at $140. Only player A and me left in the pot.
4) I had about $280 left. I went all-in and player A called with AA
5) AA holds up
I asked a $1-3 professional grinder about the similar question. He told me to fold the KK.
But the majority of answers from the other poker forums told the players never fold KK.
Without much information about player A, I still think playing KK pre-flop is right move.
What is your suggestion?
I'd fold it (and definitely don't show it -- if you do people will be taking shots at you all day) unless if I had specific information about player A. He is clearly eager to commit his stack pre-flop with this hand. What are you hoping he has? This is an easy hand to get away from.
If you know (not think) that he is a maniac or an idiot and he is just as likely to have QQ as AA then calling for your equity in the $80 + change already in the pot makes sense. But most players will not play QQ like this. Most players have AA or KK when they play like this, which makes it an easy lay-down.
IMO this is a simple matter of putting your opponent on a range of hands and realizing that you are screwed.
Quote: KickassI have the action like this at the live 1-3 NL hold'em table:
1) Player A at early position bet $13
2) Me with the KK at the middle position popped it to $40
3) Player A re-popped it at $140. Only player A and me left in the pot.
4) I had about $280 left. I went all-in and player A called with AA
5) AA holds up
I asked a $1-3 professional grinder about the similar question. He told me to fold the KK.
But the majority of answers from the other poker forums told the players never fold KK.
Without much information about player A, I still think playing KK pre-flop is right move.
What is your suggestion?
Only fold KK pre-flop in a low-limit NLHE game if you know the player making the reraise would only do it with AA.
There are plenty of players in low-limit NLHE who will reraise like you described with 10s, Js, and Qs. Some will even do it with AK suited or offsuit. Your KK are a massive favorite over all those hands.
I would never fold KK there unless I had played with that person before and was sure it was aces. Against a stranger, never.
Quote: sodawaterOnly fold KK in a low-limit NLHE game if you know the player making the reraise would only do it with AA.
Not just AA. AA or KK. You do not want to get all-in hoping for the 1 in 7 chance that you are chopping.
Certainly, if the opponent's range includes QQ and/or lower then you want to get all-in. But you need to be sure that it includes that range -- for most players it does not. Many people will grudgingly call all-in with QQ because they are bad players and aren't willing to fold the best hand that they have seen in an hour, but very few will play it in the way that was described.
ZCore13
I don't claim to be a great NL player, and it's been a while since I've played, but I think I was reraising AKs as a matter of course against any but the tightest players simply to keep from being too exploitable (by players being able to correctly fold KK.)
good adviceQuote: sodawaterOnly fold KK pre-flop in a low-limit NLHE game if you know the player making the reraise would only do it with AA.
There are plenty of players in low-limit NLHE who will reraise like you described with 10s, Js, and Qs. Some will even do it with AK suited or offsuit. Your KK are a massive favorite over all those hands.
I would never fold KK there unless I had played with that person before and was sure it was aces. Against a stranger, never.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceNot just AA. AA or KK. You do not want to get all-in hoping for the 1 in 7 chance that you are chopping.
Certainly, if the opponent's range includes QQ and/or lower then you want to get all-in. But you need to be sure that it includes that range -- for most players it does not. Many people will grudgingly call all-in with QQ because they are bad players and aren't willing to fold the best hand that they have seen in an hour, but very few will play it in the way that was described.
Good point about AA or KK. Like you said, if you do add KK to his range, the aces still come up 6 times more often when you do call.
But I can't agree with your second paragraph at all. We are talking $1-$3 NLHE here. Everyone playing is an amateur. In games like this, I have seen people reraise all in with JTs, KQ, KJ, AQ, AJ, as well as every pair and AK of course. Of course you were talking about "most players." In $1-$2 or $1-$3 NLHE I would say that "most players" would definitely reraise all in with AKs, JJ, and QQ in addition to the AA and KK. This makes the situation OP described as an automatic call.
Quote: Zcore13I would have never folded the KK. Yes, the player had AA this time, but in the long run when this situation arises you'll come across AK, QQ, and maybe even KQ suited enough times to make up for the rare AA vs KK.
ZCore13
Umm, No. People aren't steadily throwing in a big stack with AK or QQ. Certainly not KQ suited.
Quote: sodawaterGood point about AA or KK. Like you said, if you do add KK to his range, the aces still come up 6 times more often when you do call.
But I can't agree with your second paragraph at all. We are talking $1-$3 NLHE here. Everyone playing is an amateur. In games like this, I have seen people reraise all in with JTs, KQ, KJ, AQ, AJ, as well as every pair and AK of course. Of course you were talking about "most players." In $1-$2 or $1-$3 NLHE I would say that "most players" would definitely reraise all in with AKs, JJ, and QQ in addition to the AA and KK. This makes the situation OP described as an automatic call.
Where exactly do you play? I know most of the grinders in AC and they certainly aren't amateurs. Maybe they play badly in other ways, but they aren't throwing it in with dominated garbage.
Quote: Lemieux66Where exactly do you play? I know most of the grinders in AC and they certainly aren't amateurs. Maybe they play badly in other ways, but they aren't throwing it in with dominated garbage.
No one playing $1-$2 NL in AC is a "grinder." They take $5 out of every pot. The rake is far too high to "grind" anything. The lowest-limit NLHE game it's possible to "grind" at in AC is $2-$5, where the rake is far lower at $5 a half and the stacks much deeper.
Maybe on Friday and Saturday nights or during holidays when AC is packed with drunks and tourists, a good player can play $1-$2 NLHE and show a profit. But that makes no sense because the larger games are full of providers during those times, as well.
Anyway, the point is that most $1 small blind NL players would certainly be playing all in for hands like AKs, JJ, and QQ, which makes considering folding KK against a stranger in such a game laughable.
Then you are playing the wrong games and at the wrong times. I have played plenty of games in AC where guys do worst then this. However they might not be doing this VS you if they perceive you to be a nit. You really must give some action and take some responsibility in making the game get crazy. Show some bluffs or bad hands. Even if you have to give up some value at the beginning. Some table talk don't hurt. Are you calling over cocktails for the other players? offering to tip for their drinks. Having one yourself? I have had guys at the table say, I don't drink when I play poker, only to have them falling out of their chair 4 hrs later.Quote: Lemieux66Where exactly do you play? I know most of the grinders in AC and they certainly aren't amateurs. Maybe they play badly in other ways, but they aren't throwing it in with dominated garbage.
Friday nights 11pm to Saturday 5am the games should be loose as hell.
Quote: AxelWolfThen you are playing the wrong games and at the wrong times. I have played plenty of games in AC where guys do worst then this. However they might not be doing this VS you if they perceive you to be a nit. You really must give some action and take some responsibility in making the game get crazy. Show some bluffs or bad hands. Even if you have to give up some value at the beginning. Some table talk don't hurt. Are you calling over cocktails for the other players? offering to tip for their drinks. Having one yourself? I have had guys at the table say, I don't drink when I play poker, only to have them falling out of their chair 4 hrs later.
Friday nights 11pm to Saturday 5am the games should be loose as hell.
It depends on my mood and the people. Sometimes I'm the loudest one at the table and others I don't say a word.
I don't drink much at all and certainly not playing poker.
Quote: sodawaterGood point about AA or KK. Like you said, if you do add KK to his range, the aces still come up 6 times more often when you do call.
But I can't agree with your second paragraph at all. We are talking $1-$3 NLHE here. Everyone playing is an amateur. In games like this, I have seen people reraise all in with JTs, KQ, KJ, AQ, AJ, as well as every pair and AK of course. Of course you were talking about "most players." In $1-$2 or $1-$3 NLHE I would say that "most players" would definitely reraise all in with AKs, JJ, and QQ in addition to the AA and KK. This makes the situation OP described as an automatic call.
Actually, to be honest, if the player has raised all-in I would be more likely to call. But he did not go all-in. He raised $100 over top of a $40 raise, with half his stack left behind. To me, that screams strength. He wants you to call. A good player might do this as a bluff, but, from your standard 1-3 player, this is AA.
Quote: sodawaterNo one playing $1-$2 NL in AC is a "grinder." They take $5 out of every pot. The rake is far too high to "grind" anything. The lowest-limit NLHE game it's possible to "grind" at in AC is $2-$5, where the rake is far lower at $5 a half and the stacks much deeper.
Maybe on Friday and Saturday nights or during holidays when AC is packed with drunks and tourists, a good player can play $1-$2 NLHE and show a profit. But that makes no sense because the larger games are full of providers during those times, as well.
Anyway, the point is that most $1 small blind NL players would certainly be playing all in for hands like AKs, JJ, and QQ, which makes considering folding KK against a stranger in such a game laughable.
Not at all. You can still grind out steady money at $1-2. You just have to be a good player and change seats and tables at the drop of a hat.
* He's raised twice already (and the first was designed to not chase off players) so the chances of him folding at that point are zip, zero, nada
* You get two new pieces of info before you act again: a peek at the flop and his subsequent action.
For this hand, IMHO, I don't think you misplayed it before his $100 raise, or even after (necessarily).
Admittedly, this is a hindsight analysis. In the moment, though, this thinking maybe should at least be an option you think of for future reference.
Anyway, not knowing what the other players mucked, I think an overpair has about a 4:1 advantage, +/- a few points depending on suits, so that it held up was a little ... dare I say ... unlucky.
Quote: Lemieux66Umm, No. People aren't steadily throwing in a big stack with AK or QQ. Certainly not KQ suited.
I don't know where you play, but yes they are. We are not talking professional poker players here. Regular people playing at regular Las Vegas, Laughlin and Tribal Casinos are far from great players. People consistently over-play and over bet AK, KQ suited, and QQ.
ZCore13
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceActually, to be honest, if the player has raised all-in I would be more likely to call. But he did not go all-in. He raised $100 over top of a $40 raise, with half his stack left behind. To me, that screams strength. He wants you to call. A good player might do this as a bluff, but, from your standard 1-3 player, this is AA.
This is logical and certainly applies to a mid-limit poker game, but this is $1-$3. I just can't give anyone any kind of credit for a range of AA-KK only in a game like this, unless I know him well.
Quote: Sabretom2Call, take a look at the flop. Maybe he ends up thinking his AA is beat.
People call all the time when they know that their AA is beat :)
Quote: sodawaterThis is logical and certainly applies to a mid-limit poker game, but this is $1-$3. I just can't give anyone any kind of credit for a range of AA-KK only in a game like this, unless I know him well.
I think we just have to disagree here. Certainly, if I see that the guy is doing crap like this a lot then I am going to play back at him. But if I have no information whatsoever (ie, it's my first hand at the table with players I've never seen before) I'm folding.
You can usually tell peoples' styles pretty quickly, so it would be very rare to actually have no information at all about the other guy.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicePeople call all the time when they know that their AA is beat :)
And?
In my opinion, call was the correct play. There's plenty of poker left in the hand described.
Yes, People will even know they are beat bad, but still take a chance because they want to win big or go home. I have showed guys hands that have them dominated and they say Fk it I call.Quote: AxiomOfChoicePeople call all the time when they know that their AA is beat :)
Quote: Sabretom2And?
In my opinion, call was the correct play. There's plenty of poker left in the hand described.
My point is simply that if he has AA, your chances of bluffing him off the hand are pretty slim in a $1/$3 game. Most people at that level will simply not fold aces. I've seen people call with red aces and 4 spades on the board.
I'm not sure how you think that there is plenty of poker left with half the stacks in pre-flop. No one has more than half a pot-sized bet in front of them.
Remember I said THEY say FK it and call. Why would they pay for information? I showed them my hand, they have all the information.Quote: IbeatyouracesSometimes your just paying for the information.
I might show them my hand if I am sure they are not going to call and I have them dominated. Usually I make a comment, you owe me one. Then I will be shocked they call.
Go to drunken 1-3 games at Rio, Palms. Fri /Saturday nights. Start at 10PMQuote: IbeatyouracesThey called after seeing it?? I want in on that game!
One guy ran 300 into 2600. He called everything and anything. Busted my first buy in and my flopped set With his 5 7 off on the river. (i didn't show him the set untill show down) However he had to know I had him dominated.
Any one know the legality (im not asking casino rules) of secretly video recording you poker sessions?
The only time I would consider laying down KK in position against that type of raise is when I play 1/2 NL at GVR against the tightest old nits in the business. They never play out of their range for all the tea in China. (I would probably include Orleans and Red Rock here too).
So, it would depdend on casino, table and situation but again, I'm nowhere near good enough to lay down THAT hand :)
Quote: JoePloppyI'm shocked this isn't a Neutrino thread.
Heh, I was thinking the same thing.
If you know Player A FOLD if you know "A" does this with Aces.
CALL if he does this with AA, QQ, AKsuited, or JJ, etc (top hands)
RAISE if "A" does this with Suited-connected/med. pairs.
You had the option NOT to re-raise (tipping your hand) by calling $140 in a 1-3 game.
AC is good on the on weekend nights/ holidays. If you play during the day then your dealing with guys that rock it up. If I played poker full time I wouldn't even get up till 7pm. Play long hrs on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and holiday weekends.Quote: Lemieux66I think the amount of tourists that frequent your area skew your opinion on this stuff. If you're dealing with tight regs all day it's an easier fold if circumstances are right. If you're dealing with wacky tourists, get it in. It's very man and situation specific.
Quote: AxelWolfAC is good on the on weekend nights/ holidays. If you play during the day then your dealing with guys that rock it up. If I played poker full time I wouldn't even get up till 7pm. Play long hrs on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and holiday weekends.
I'm probably going to either do 9:6 JoB progressive or 10-20 mix in the day from now on. You're 100% right about it being a bad game in the day on weekdays. Pretty much Monday-Wednesday at any time as well.
occasionally A mid afternoon Saturday or Sunday can be good. You can play during the day vs rocks for some smaller less fluctuating wins bluffing and aggressive play but as soon as they catch on move along.Quote: Lemieux66I'm probably going to either do 9:6 JoB progressive or 10-20 mix in the day from now on. You're 100% right about it being a bad game in the day on weekdays. Pretty much Monday-Wednesday at any time as well.
10 20 limit ? What games do they mix? I hate hi low games and dislike limit games.
Quote: AxelWolfoccasionally A mid afternoon Saturday or Sunday can be good. You can play during the day vs rocks for some smaller less fluctuating wins bluffing and aggressive play but as soon as they catch on move along.
10 20 limit ? What games do they mix? I hate hi low games and dislike limit games.
Not your style then. 10-20 Omaha HL and Stud HL with a half kill. I find that card counting experience helps a ton with the Stud HL.
Personally, I'm not sure you're ever going to keep that money if you play it smart haha. It's tough to lay down KK preflop - and for good reason - it's rarely the correct play. I've only done it once (almost did twice, turns out the second time I ran into AA and sucked out lol. First time I also ran into aces, but got away from it.)
Quote: BadAtLifeWould jam pre w/KK 99.9%. I reserve the .1% for the very small percentage of people on earth who would only do it with Aces. You know that old guy that is super tight that only does it with Aces? Yea, well even he does it with QQ TT JJ AK AQs more often than you give him credit for.
It depends on how deep he is.
As it turned out, Player B had JJ, and Player C had KK. Jack on the flop. Player C's drawing dead, as would I have been.
Quote: Lemieux66It depends on how deep he is.
He said how deep he was.
Quote: DeucekiesThe only time I've ever folded KK preflop was the very first hand in a tournament. 20,000 starting stack, blinds 100/200. I was out of position. I raised, Player B raised all in, Player C called. I decided between the all-in for 100BB and the call for 100BB on the First Damn Hand, one of them had to have aces, or at least AK.
As it turned out, Player B had JJ, and Player C had KK. Jack on the flop. Player C's drawing dead, as would I have been.
Very tough spot. Certainly logic for folding and calling in this spot. Generally I probably call more often than fold in this spot. The overjam by Player B would worry me much less than the Player C call. Would be a standard read decision on that player. Probably fold around 10-15% of the time. You just aren't deep enough even at 100BBs, and depending on the buy-in you should be expecting less than professional wackyish play.
Quote: BadAtLifeHe said how deep he was.
I was talking about BadLife. He just gave generalities and nothing about stack size.
Theres 1 really good video for this scenario, that I can think of. Folding KK usually comes down to a soul read. Its more of a philosophical question than anything.... Except for this:
I spoke to Brett at length about this. He clearly regrets it and admits that his brain spiral'd out of control when evaluating the situation and the prospects of actually folding KK vs a moron, and a demonstrative clown. Even as a world class player, it just shows how hard this is to do....
Quote: DeucekiesThe only time I've ever folded KK preflop was the very first hand in a tournament. 20,000 starting stack, blinds 100/200. I was out of position. I raised, Player B raised all in, Player C called. I decided between the all-in for 100BB and the call for 100BB on the First Damn Hand, one of them had to have aces, or at least AK.
An early double up in tournament is very lucrative, even for a coin flip or less - which is B was hoping for and C will know either. I would have called here, especially if you can triple up.
