Can Big blind sit out when he spots a button straddle?
Jut wondering, is it limit or no limit you are playing?Quote: NeutrinoI've wondered about this. Getting straddled while you're in big blind is possibly the worst position to be in (if it's 9 players). So how about just as soon as you see that straddle sit out? Does that work? Will the poker rooms generally speaking allow it? Will other people get pissed? Would they being pissed lead to any negative consequences towards you if so?
You give up your button and one hand when you do this.
Depending on how aggressive the guys straddling is, it will create some nice pots and give you some nice pot odds. Since straddling is normally a bad play you should learn how to better play in this situation instead of trying to avoid it.
Quote: AxelWolfJut wondering, is it limit or no limit you are playing?
You give up your button and one hand when you do this.
Depending on how aggressive the guys straddling is, it will create some nice pots and give you some nice pot odds. Since straddling is normally a bad play you should learn how to better play in this situation instead of trying to avoid it.
agreed with this 100%.
People who straddle are normally going to raise it when it gets back to them as well so it makes it really easy to play your hand.
To answer your question though, the straddle is generally put out pretty late so do you really have enough time to sit out? If this person straddles every time then you could sit out. When you join back in you would have to post your BB to play the hand. IMO, if you are good at poker then why would you want to miss 10% of the hands. You should just learn how to defend against the straddle and make the right moves. I have won some of my biggest pots against a person straddling.
But sitting out will probably cost you a lot more than playing will.
Ditto. Many poker books say that straddling helps someone else more than it helps the straddler.Quote: AxelWolf... straddling is normally a bad play you should learn how to better play in this situation instead of trying to avoid it.
If this is is a 9 player game as I stated, the extra EV from the straddle does NOT offset your loss from going second as BB.
Seriously what are you going to do if you have a good hand, call? raise? you'd be pretty uncomfortable doing either.
I agree straddle benefits other players. But not you if you're BB. Imo it benefits the person before the dealer the most.
Also posting dead is not the same as not sitting out. You're still blinded but your position is different. You're not blinded and first to act, huge difference.
Quote: GWAEI have won some of my biggest pots against a person straddling.
So have I, but that's when I'm some other position and NOT when i'm getting BB straddled by button
Quote: Neutrino
Seriously what are you going to do if you have a good hand, call? raise? you'd be pretty uncomfortable doing either.
Why would I be uncomfortable raising if I have a good hand? With a good hand I am happy to wager big now to avoid a flop and hence being out of position. When there is bad money (the straddle) in the pot you want to end the hand as soon as possible and collect the negative EV of the straddler.
Quote: NeutrinoThe most important thing here is you're in blind and you literally is already -BB in EV and UTG except everything is x2. Does not really benefit you
Everything is not x2. You can fold and put in the normal amount of money.
If you can't handle a player raising without looking at his cards, you are probably not beating the game.
Quote: NeutrinoThe most important thing here is you're in blind and you literally is already -BB in EV and UTG except everything is x2. Does not really benefit you
If this is is a 9 player game as I stated, the extra EV from the straddle does NOT offset your loss from going second as BB.
Seriously what are you going to do if you have a good hand, call? raise? you'd be pretty uncomfortable doing either.
I agree straddle benefits other players. But not you if you're BB. Imo it benefits the person before the dealer the most.
Also posting dead is not the same as not sitting out. You're still blinded but your position is different. You're not blinded and first to act, huge difference.
Actually, being to a direct left on the straddler is annoying. You can't really limp now(not that limping UTG under normal conditions is a good move) plus you're likely getting into a raised pot here. I'd love to be the BB to see the lay of the land so to speak.
What limit are you playing?Quote: NeutrinoThe most important thing here is you're in blind and you literally is already -BB in EV and UTG except everything is x2. Does not really benefit you
If this is is a 9 player game as I stated, the extra EV from the straddle does NOT offset your loss from going second as BB.
Seriously what are you going to do if you have a good hand, call? raise? you'd be pretty uncomfortable doing either.
I agree straddle benefits other players. But not you if you're BB. Imo it benefits the person before the dealer the most.
Also posting dead is not the same as not sitting out. You're still blinded but your position is different. You're not blinded and first to act, huge difference.
But, you can't come in on the button so you now miss your button, is that worth it? If you buy the button he will just straddle again lol.
What happens if you now post after the button and someone straddles again? Stay because of your good position?
I guess if there ever was a good time for YOU to sit out this would be the time.
Quote: NeutrinoSo have I, but that's when I'm some other position and NOT when i'm getting BB straddled by button
I know that I have won my largest pot ever in the BB against the straddler but the straddle had nothing to do with that. We both ended up with AK, A on the flop, and I flushed him. Money was all in on the flop. Even without the straddle the money would have been all in.
Anyways, it is not worth sitting out just to avoid a straddler. There are other options that are better that were already mentioned in this thread.
Quote: GWAEI know that I have won my largest pot ever in the BB against the straddler but the straddle had nothing to do with that. We both ended up with AK, A on the flop, and I flushed him. Money was all in on the flop. Even without the straddle the money would have been all in.
Anyways, it is not worth sitting out just to avoid a straddler. There are other options that are better that were already mentioned in this thread.
If you truly feel uncomfortable with a guy straddling your BB, just threaten his life. Duh
Quote: Lemieux66If you truly feel uncomfortable with a guy straddling your BB, just threaten his life. Duh
If someone raising without looking at his cards is enough to beat you at the game, I'd recommend taking up slots.
"I could win if only my opponents would play better...."
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIf someone raising without looking at his cards is enough to beat you at the game, I'd recommend taking up slots.
"I could win if only my opponents would play better...."
I once was in a 1/2 game where a guy was raising blind to 35 every hand. He got one caller. Flop had an ace. Caller had A6. Raiser went all in for like 200 BLIND. Guy folded.
Quote: Lemieux66I once was in a 1/2 game where a guy was raising blind to 35 every hand. He got one caller. Flop had an ace. Caller had A6. Raiser went all in for like 200 BLIND. Guy folded.
lol...
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceEverything is not x2. You can fold and put in the normal amount of money.
If you can't handle a player raising without looking at his cards, you are probably not beating the game.
I sure can handle a player raising without looking at his cards, but that's not what straddling is.
Straddling is that + the very important you just got fucked in the position and you have to go first as BB now.
I don't care if someone bets dark. But this is not bet dark.
Quote: NeutrinoI sure can handle a player raising without looking at his cards, but that's not what straddling is.
Straddling is that + the very important you just got fucked in the position and you have to go first as BB now.
I don't care if someone bets dark. But this is not bet dark.
The point is, their straddle is a bad play. It is -EV for them. At least some of that EV flows to you. It's not your fair share (you make more in other positions) but it's still positive. You should be able to take advantage of it. Now, the whole hand is still -EV, but that's always true in the BB. It should be closer to 0 than it would otherwise be.
Also, with a button straddle, the BB is not first to act.
Quote: DRichWhy would I be uncomfortable raising if I have a good hand? With a good hand I am happy to wager big now to avoid a flop and hence being out of position. When there is bad money (the straddle) in the pot you want to end the hand as soon as possible and collect the negative EV of the straddler.
Say if the table on average will have 5 people call. (including sb/bb)
Well now if you raise you won't be taking those limp bets since they go after you. It drops down to straddle + sb + bb = 3.5 BB instead of 5
let alone, you get cheated out of valuable information for going after the other people.
Quote: AxelWolfWhat limit are you playing?
But, you can't come in on the button so you now miss your button, is that worth it? If you buy the button he will just straddle again lol.
What happens if you now post after the button and someone straddles again? Stay because of your good position?
I guess if there ever was a good time for YOU to sit out this would be the time.
Limit is 1/2 NL, but I guess it wouldn't really matter except for table meta.
whether I buy the button or post after button I'm guaranteed to have decent position. And he won't be able to straddle anyway because only button straddles and live straddles are allowed in where I play.
1:Puts extra money in the pot regardless of the straddler's hand
2: Changes the position in the table. Straddler gets better position, Everyone else gets slightly better position EXCEPT SB and BB who gets horrible position.
So basically straddler pays 1BB for +2 position on everyone except -7 position on SB and BB. Perfect for collusion if you ask me, 7 friends sit together and straddle whenever the 2 outsiders are SB and BB. each person pay on average 1/6 BB straddle for 1.5BB to go first. What a good deal that is.
Normally people say straddle isn't worth it, that's because 1BB isn't worth making 1.5BB go first.
But if it's 1/6 BB to make 1.5BB go first? Sounds like a fine deal to me.
Look at it from the other side then. When you're BB getting straddled, the other guys might as well be colluding because it makes no difference to you whether they are or not. I just dissected it to show you're the one getting screwed over.
position is power is it not? Especially if 9 handed. If it were 4 handed then hell I welcome any straddle
The straddler is putting money into the pot without looking at his cards. You get to look at your cards, and then decide how to proceed. And you think that this puts you at a disadvantage? That is crazy.
Quote: IbeatyouracesA straddle is essentially a third blind.
Yup. An optional one.
That would be like saying that if you chose not to pay your big blind on your turn (and they let you!!) then the fact that everyone else pays it puts you at a disadvantage when you are in the small blind.
I have seen games with a forced button straddle. Imagine that you are in a game like that, but it's only forced for everyone else. You get to choose. If you choose not to do it, is that a disadvantage or an advantage?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceEverything is not x2. You can fold and put in the normal amount of money.
If you can't handle a player raising without looking at his cards, you are probably not beating the game.
This post has a grave error in it Please substitute DEFINITELY for
probably !
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about.
The straddler is putting money into the pot without looking at his cards. You get to look at your cards, and then decide how to proceed. And you think that this puts you at a disadvantage? That is crazy.
I'll give the benefit of doubt that where you play, the rules for straddle may be different.
Where I play, and I believe this is pretty common in most places, a straddle is NOT a dark bet. If the button straddles, SB goes first, instead of UTG.
Quote: NeutrinoI'll give the benefit of doubt that where you play, the rules for straddle may be different.
Where I play, and I believe this is pretty common in most places, a straddle is NOT a dark bet. If the button straddles, SB goes first, instead of UTG.
I've seen it both ways. I've seen UTG go first, but it skips the button and the SB, BB, and button act last in that order.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The fact that he acts last pre-flop does not make up for the fact that he is putting his money in blind. Just like, on a non-straddle hand, the fact that the BB acts last pre-flop does not make up for the fact that he puts his money in blind.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI've seen it both ways. I've seen UTG go first, but it skips the button and the SB, BB, and button act last in that order.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The fact that he acts last pre-flop does not make up for the fact that he is putting his money in blind. Just like, on a non-straddle hand, the fact that the BB acts last pre-flop does not make up for the fact that he puts his money in blind.
Actually, just because the straddler is making -EV by straddling doesn't mean you're getting any of that EV as BB.
Once again. Straddling benefit/harm analysis:
Benifits: UTG-UTG+6
Harms: Button
Tremendously harms: SB, BB
As BB you don't get any of the $$ that is the mistake of straddling (I believe it's a mistake unless colluding)
Quote: NeutrinoActually, just because the straddler is making -EV by straddling doesn't mean you're getting any of that EV as BB.
Once again. Straddling benefit/harm analysis:
Benifits: UTG-UTG+6
Harms: Button
Tremendously harms: SB, BB
As BB you don't get any of the $$ that is the mistake of straddling (I believe it's a mistake unless colluding)
Sorry, but if you can't work this to an advantage, you shouldn't be playing poker. Just tighten up a little bit. You will win fewer hands but it will more than be made up for by the fact that the pots you win will be bigger.
If you are losing more money here, it's probably because you are erroneously thinking that you can play a lot of hands in this spot. If you wouldn't play UTG, the hand is probably not playable.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSorry, but if you can't work this to an advantage, you shouldn't be playing poker. Just tighten up a little bit. You will win fewer hands but it will more than be made up for by the fact that the pots you win will be bigger.
If you are losing more money here, it's probably because you are erroneously thinking that you can play a lot of hands in this spot. If you wouldn't play UTG, the hand is probably not playable.
Ok first I got a question for you, and don't take offense because I don't mean offense at all. I noticed from your answers to many of my threads before that you are a knowledgeable person in regular gambling and AP. I'd just like to ask you what expertise you have in poker.
So to address what you said. My problem isn't about folding the blind at all. When you have a non-playable hand, getting straddled by the button will cost you -EV in the cases (i'd say about 30%) that everyone calls or chop. AKA you can't just option check your blind. AKA equivalent to any person min raising. something like 1/5 BB lost in this case on average, no big deal.
Despite that, the biggest problem I've found getting straddled by button as BB is when I have a good hand. Either call or raise results in a tremendous -EV compared to making that decision with the same hand in BB without the straddle.
Quote: NeutrinoOk first I got a question for you, and don't take offense because I don't mean offense at all. I noticed from your answers to many of my threads before that you are a knowledgeable person in regular gambling and AP. I'd just like to ask you what expertise you have in poker.
So to address what you said. My problem isn't about folding the blind at all. When you have a non-playable hand, getting straddled by the button will cost you -EV in the cases (i'd say about 30%) that everyone calls or chop. AKA you can't just option check your blind. AKA equivalent to any person min raising. something like 1/5 BB lost in this case on average, no big deal.
Despite that, the biggest problem I've found getting straddled by button as BB is when I have a good hand. Either call or raise results in a tremendous -EV compared to making that decision with the same hand in BB without the straddle.
I play some poker. No limit poker is not my best skill but I can play. I think I can certainly hold my own at any $1-$2 game.
I'd argue that if you have a big hand like AA, your EV is much, much higher with the straddle. No matter what you do, the pot will be bigger. You yourself said that you are playing for 2x stakes! I want to play for 2x stakes when I have aces. If you limp, going for a limp-reraise, I think you have a good chance of getting it, and the pot will be very large at this point, compared to a times when you would normally just raise out of the BB. If you raise, looking for callers, you can get away with a larger raise than you otherwise would.
But, yeah, if you are going to call with 9-6 suited because "it's your big blind" you will probably lose money, but it's not because of the straddle.
Quote: NeutrinoOk first I got a question for you, and don't take offense because I don't mean offense at all. I noticed from your answers to many of my threads before that you are a knowledgeable person in regular gambling and AP. I'd just like to ask you what expertise you have in poker.
So to address what you said. My problem isn't about folding the blind at all. When you have a non-playable hand, getting straddled by the button will cost you -EV in the cases (i'd say about 30%) that everyone calls or chop. AKA you can't just option check your blind. AKA equivalent to any person min raising. something like 1/5 BB lost in this case on average, no big deal.
Despite that, the biggest problem I've found getting straddled by button as BB is when I have a good hand. Either call or raise results in a tremendous -EV compared to making that decision with the same hand in BB without the straddle.
It sounds like you are being results oriented. Just because you have lost with a good hand in the BB doesn't mean that you didn't have the advantage from the get go. Also whenever there is a staddle you need to adjust your play. If you have a 45 suited in BB you would play it one way but if there is a straddle you need to play it a different way. Poker is about adjusting to players and if you are unable to adjust to this one player then it looks like they are doing a fine job throwing you off of your game.
Again, it has been mentioned multiple times. If there is one player that always straddles then just make sure you are not sitting to his right if you feel it is giving you a disadvantage. If it is the only seat available then ask for a seat change.
There is a player that I play with often that straddles. If I am dealt AA or KK I am going to let it limp back to him because I can guarantee that he is raising his straddle. After his raise I am shipping it and either taking down a nice pre flop pot or I am a huge favorite against him.
Quote: GWAE
Again, it has been mentioned multiple times. If there is one player that always straddles then just make sure you are not sitting to his right if you feel it is giving you a disadvantage. If it is the only seat available then ask for a seat change.
Should I take it that you partially support my claim that it is indeed disadvantageous to be straddled on the BB? As you can see many others here think it's +EV for you if you're on BB and button straddles.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI play some poker. No limit poker is not my best skill but I can play. I think I can certainly hold my own at any $1-$2 game.
I'd argue that if you have a big hand like AA, your EV is much, much higher with the straddle. No matter what you do, the pot will be bigger. You yourself said that you are playing for 2x stakes! I want to play for 2x stakes when I have aces. If you limp, going for a limp-reraise, I think you have a good chance of getting it, and the pot will be very large at this point, compared to a times when you would normally just raise out of the BB. If you raise, looking for callers, you can get away with a larger raise than you otherwise would.
But, yeah, if you are going to call with 9-6 suited because "it's your big blind" you will probably lose money, but it's not because of the straddle.
Unfortunately big hand limper's worst nightmare is getting nobody to do the raising for you. In that case it sure depends on how aggressive the table is. If a table is aggressive enough, your positional disadvantage disappears because you can act again after someone else acts.
Otherwise unfortunately UTG+1 as BB will hurt your BB quite badly.
So about yourself, am I correct to say you're better at AP'ing games with strict and straightforward calculable rules? Which is just about every normal casino game in this case.
I can also "hold my own" at my local 1/2 table, holding my own as in +EV. Despite what people have previously told me autistics should not play NLHE. Even though our disagreement here is pretty large, the topic itself is rare and we can both be +EV players regardless of how we act when getting straddled by BB as long as our other poker concepts are solid.
Quote: GWAEPoker is about adjusting to players and if you are unable to adjust to this one player then it looks like they are doing a fine job throwing you off of your game.
Is this why professional poker players straddle on TV? since straddle is commonly considered -EV I can't understand why they would do it.
Quote: NeutrinoShould I take it that you partially support my claim that it is indeed disadvantageous to be straddled on the BB? As you can see many others here think it's +EV for you if you're on BB and button straddles.
I support your claim that it is causing you issues with your play against it. Any issues will negatively effect your play causing you -ev. In that case you should not play against it until you are comfortable with playing against it.
As with everything in Poker, the straddled BB is totally situational. Adjust your play accordingly and it can make you a lot of money.
If you have junk in the BB, you get out for only the BB you have already sunk into the hand, no loss.
Depending on the tendencies of your straddler (and the make up of the rest of the table of course), you have several plays that can make this profitable for you with a strong hand.
If your straddler plays straight, you just take advantage of his positon to get an additional opportunity to raise the pot with more dead money in it.
If he is aggressive, and you can count on him to re-raise his straddle, you have the opportunity to limp in and then effectively check raise him again.
All in all if you are perceptive and adaptive, this creates an opportunity for you to make your position of BB less of disadvantage and even possibly turn it into a net advantage.
Quote: AlembertI am a bit of a poker player, NLHE exclusively. Primarily a tournament player but some cash also.
As with everything in Poker, the straddled BB is totally situational. Adjust your play accordingly and it can make you a lot of money.
If you have junk in the BB, you get out for only the BB you have already sunk into the hand, no loss.
Depending on the tendencies of your straddler (and the make up of the rest of the table of course), you have several plays that can make this profitable for you with a strong hand.
If your straddler plays straight, you just take advantage of his positon to get an additional opportunity to raise the pot with more dead money in it.
If he is aggressive, and you can count on him to re-raise his straddle, you have the opportunity to limp in and then effectively check raise him again.
All in all if you are perceptive and adaptive, this creates an opportunity for you to make your position of BB less of disadvantage and even possibly turn it into a net advantage.
I like your analysis on the "if the table is aggressive", I would probably agree with it.
But for your analysis on "if the straddler is tight" the answer "Raise" doesn't seem to do too well. If you have junk hand you risk being pwnd by any of the other 6 players who have +2 position due to straddle and no chips commuted. If you have a good hand you risk everyone folding right away instead of protecting their calls.
People do realize they're playing against the whole table and not just 1 person (the button straddler) right? At least you mentioned the table tendency unlike most others here.
Quote: NeutrinoDoes nobody on this forums care about position at all?!?!?!
Repost because I'd be very surprised if not even a single person here agree with me that the positional disadvantage may not be worth the straddler's chips EV wise.
Position is of course important, but can be turned into a hidden advantage depending on the make-up and tendencies of your various opponents. Personally, I like being button straddled in the BB, gives me a lot of information on opponent holdings and if I am in the mood to aggressively bluff, may let me steal a considerable pot from a bad position.
Quote: AlembertWith a button straddle, all other players act, then SB, then BB and Finally button. By the time you must act on your straddled BB, you are no longer playing 9 players, only the button and any players who limped in for 2xBB. If they did not limp in, then their raise before you must commit more than your sunk BB will assist you in determining the most profitable manner to play the hand, the obvious play being dumping your cards with no additional investment.
Position is of course important, but can be turned into a hidden advantage depending on the make-up and tendencies of your various opponents. Personally, I like being button straddled in the BB, gives me a lot of information on opponent holdings and if I am in the mood to aggressively bluff, may let me steal a considerable pot from a bad position.
Nooooooooooo that's exactly the issue. Where I play if button straddles SB starts, and then BB, and then UTG and finally button, therefore position changes.
Quote: NeutrinoI've wondered about this. Getting straddled while you're in big blind is possibly the worst position to be in (if it's 9 players). So how about just as soon as you see that straddle sit out? Does that work? Will the poker rooms generally speaking allow it? Will other people get pissed? Would they being pissed lead to any negative consequences towards you if so?
Going back to your original thoughts and questions: Can you sit out? Absolutely, if you are quick enough to catch it or just simply anticipate it. Drawback is of course you gotta pay the blind sometime and of course the cost of giving up the button. Personally, I pay the $2 blind and play it like i'm UTG.
Will the poker room allow it? Generally speaking, it's your money. YOu have the right to break whenever you choose to for whatever reason or no reason at all. I say generally speaking because your room has odd rules, will THAT room allow it is another question entirely. Ask the floorman.
Will other players get pissed? Probably not, annoyed maybe (especially the guy that you stick with the position that you are sitting out to avoid). Their opinion of me though would be the least of my considerations. I am not playing poker to make friends or keep my opponents happy.
Negative consequences? Other than maybe a player gunning for your chips, probably not.
Personally, I would take the blind, play it like I was UTG and look for an opportunity to move to a more appropriate position on the table.
Where I play cash, there are a couple players that I simply will not sit a table with. One is just that guy that plays in such a manner that it forces me to not be able to play my game comfortably, so I avoid him. Another is just an obnoxious slob that makes the experience of playing un-enjoyable, so I avoid him. I am sure there are players that will choose not to play with me as well.
Ultimately, remember, you are playing for entertainment or profit or both. If the table you are playing on is not allowing you to accomplish your goals, change to a table that will.
I hope my rambling thoughts have been helpful.
disregarding the button straddle >>Don't be a slave to position in 1/2 NL(I bet its crippling your game)<<<.Quote: NeutrinoRepost because I'd be very surprised if not even a single person here agree with me that the positional disadvantage may not be worth the straddler's chips EV wise.
OK I didn't know we were talking about the >>>GOOD BUTTON STRADDLE<<< Poker rooms are offering this more and more it gives to much power to the button. This is a gift for even fair players. Good players know how to use it, bad players don't so it creates extra action for you.
I don't understand who's straddling you're trying to avoid. Button,live or both? I would fear and want to avoid the button straddling. (personally I don't because people suck and miss use it) If the guy is a tricky aggressive player on the button YOU are FK'ed. I would sit out if I were you. Your right it does put an enormous amount of pressure on the blinds.
Button straddling is +EV for the button(depending who you are.) All that does is change the limits of the game for that hand and give the button absolute power since he decides what to do last ALWAYS, even if a player raises in front of him, they skip over him and make the blinds act. You yourself should be doing this. It might even kill that tight image people probably have have of you. Then you might even get a call when you have AA next time;) Some People will think your a fool loose player doing this when in reality its a good bet. It will be a wild game for you if you use it at the right table. When you raise they think you are just do it because you are the button and protecting your straddle. It may also just kill action with really tight players.
