When forced to show cards.

I deal charity poker events- and I was told I was incorrect in mucking and not showing the cards for a hand. I wanted to see what anyone on here can advise as correct "forced" to show cards.


After the river Player A bets, and Player B calls- player A wins the pot and player B mucks the loosing hand- player A asks to see the cards player B had- I decline and muck the cards because Player B did not want to show.

My understanding is that the caller (B) has the right to muck his hand, but can force the person who makes the bet (A) to show their cards if desired.

The group I was doing this with F's up a ton of rules and dont do a lot of things right (for instance they insist on dealing to the button first when headsup which ive tried repeatedly to show them is incorrect), but I wanted to see if I understand this particular rule correctly.

They also stated that anyone at the table could ask to see any players cards once it gets to showdown (regardless of if all the players are all-in or not)- I also dont think this is correct and that the request should be from a player involved in the hand up to the point a winning hand is declared.

Cam someone verify either or both of these cases for me, and give me a reference? Who MUST show and who can request? - I am pretty sure the caller is allowed to muck. {We do however force hands to be shown if there is no more action pre-river with at least one player all in}

Any hand that was eligible to win the pot at showdown can be requested to be opened by any player at the table. The dealer must open the hand if requested. If a player other than the player who won the pot requested it, the dealer should first kill the hand by touching it to the muck, and then open it. If the player who won the pot requests to see a folded hand, the dealer should NOT touch it to the muck, as it is still eligible to win the showdown.

The reason for these rules is to prevent collusion. By requesting a folded hand to be opened, a player is implying he suspects collusion. The rule should not be abused, and it should not be used to "needle" someone. It also should not be used to collect extra information.

The only valid reason for "IWTSTH" (I want to see that hand) is to prevent or investigate collusion.

At Headsup, it is correct to deal to the non dealer first.
However, the dealer is the small blind, and acts first before the flop. After the flop, the other player acts first.

Quote: sodawater

The only valid reason for "IWTSTH" (I want to see that hand) is to prevent or investigate collusion.

Stupidest rule in poker. No one actually uses this rule to investigate collusion. They use this rule to get free information and to try and put players on tilt.

When I fold, I just fling my cards into the muck so they are unrecoverable.

I'm very confused, but I don't play at that level. If any player is conceding the hand at any point, don't they have the right to muck their cards without showing? That seems very unfair, as it gives other players a barometer with which to measure the player's bluffs and value bets. I do watch WSOP and other events, and I've never seen someone have to show a losing hand after they've seen the winner except during an all-in. I thought the last raiser was the first to expose, and others could show or muck as they wanted. How can it be selectively enforced if that's not correct?

Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm very confused, but I don't play at that level. If any player is conceding the hand at any point, don't they have the right to muck their cards without showing? That seems very unfair, as it gives other players a barometer with which to measure the player's bluffs and value bets. I do watch WSOP and other events, and I've never seen someone have to show a losing hand after they've seen the winner except during an all-in. I thought the last raiser was the first to expose, and others could show or muck as they wanted. How can it be selectively enforced if that's not correct?

1. Only hands eligible to win the pot at showdown can be asked to be seen. So if you fold before that, your cards cannot be shown.

2. The rule does give away information if abused. A good dealer/floor/poker room director will make it very clear that the rule is not to be abused, and only used when suspecting collusion.

3. At showdown, if no one wants to turn over his cards, the player making the last bet or raise on that street must show first, with remaining hands opened in turn clockwise from that player. If the last street was checked, then the player in earliest position must open first, with remaining hands opened in turn clockwise from that player. Players may muck their hands instead of opening.

4. The entire hand must be shown to win a pot at showdown. Even if a showdown is checked, and all players but one muck their hands, that player must show his hand to take the pot.

That sounds much more reasonable, soda, thanks for the clarification.

One more question if I may Soda- thanks for your input..

I have been told that if a player tosses or puts forward his cards and they touch the community cards, that this is considered mucked as well as if they touch the much pile- does this sound correct?

Quote: Malaru

One more question if I may Soda- thanks for your input..

I have been told that if a player tosses or puts forward his cards and they touch the community cards, that this is considered mucked as well as if they touch the much pile- does this sound correct?

It depends on the situation.

If, when facing a bet, a player tosses forward his cards facedown, that's a fold, and the hand is dead. That's a binding action. Doesn't matter if they touch community cards. There's nothing special about the community cards -- they are considered part of the table.

If a player is trying to expose his cards for showdown, and they accidentally get tossed forward facedown, they can be retrieved if they haven't made contact with the muck. Doesn't matter if they touch the community cards-- the community cards are face up and thus cannot be confused with the player's cards. But facedown cards touching the muck are always dead. "Protect your hand' is the rule.

You didn't ask this, but there is one more situation you should be familiar with. If the player exposes a winning hand face up at showdown, the dealer takes those face up cards and kills them in the muck and then pushes the pot to a competing player, the player with the original winning hand still gets the pot. That's part of the "cards speak" rule.

Quote: sodawater

2. The rule does give away information if abused. A good dealer/floor/poker room director will make it very clear that the rule is not to be abused, and only used when suspecting collusion.

This is the key here. You won't be met with kind words if you try to see a mucked hand because you want the information or are curious.

Kind words are rare at the cash games I play in, regardless.

Quote: TheJacob

This is the key here. You won't be met with kind words if you try to see a mucked hand because you want the information or are curious.

We are at the poker table for money not kind words!!!!!!!

Different houses have different rules regarding this. for Along time most casinos forced the caller to show his hand, if asked by anyone dealt in. I know the Wynn finally got tired of this, and now you must have a legitimate claim of collusion. That's how it should be.

As I said, Some casinos let anyone ask to see the cards that were dealt into the hand and enforce this no matter what the situation is.

If some guy is just doing this to piss me off, I will take the cards and slide them under the cards in the muck, just to piss him off. I have had warnings not to do this. I have had places claim nothing they can do. I have had places go into the muck and try to fish it out.

I have had times where I have asked the dealer to protect the muck, knowing something was fishy.

I don't care what rule they have as long as its consistent. Allowing people to ask can cause friction and slow down the game.

Quote: sodawater

You didn't ask this, but there is one more situation you should be familiar with. If the player exposes a winning hand face up at showdown, the dealer takes those face up cards and kills them in the muck and then pushes the pot to a competing player, the player with the original winning hand still gets the pot. That's part of the "cards speak" rule.

You got that backwards. If at showdown a player exposes his hand, cards speak. If that hand is a the best hand, it wins.


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When heads up, the dealer is small blind and gets the last card.

Why this is the case often confuses people.

He's the small blind so that he becomes first to act pre-flop and last post-flop. This is done so the action changes, just as it changes in a multi-hand game.

Then, because he's small blind, people think he gets the first card. Not true. The dealer always deals himself last, whether he's actually dealing or if there is a person doing the dealing.

I consider the move to be extremely rude. I always retaliate by making the other player show his hands.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

You got that backwards. If at showdown a player exposes his hand, cards speak. If that hand is a the best hand, it wins.

That's exactly what I said.