Malaru
Malaru
Joined: Mar 22, 2010
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January 29th, 2014 at 2:01:57 PM permalink
I deal charity poker events- and I was told I was incorrect in mucking and not showing the cards for a hand. I wanted to see what anyone on here can advise as correct "forced" to show cards.


After the river Player A bets, and Player B calls- player A wins the pot and player B mucks the loosing hand- player A asks to see the cards player B had- I decline and muck the cards because Player B did not want to show.

My understanding is that the caller (B) has the right to muck his hand, but can force the person who makes the bet (A) to show their cards if desired.

The group I was doing this with F's up a ton of rules and dont do a lot of things right (for instance they insist on dealing to the button first when headsup which ive tried repeatedly to show them is incorrect), but I wanted to see if I understand this particular rule correctly.

They also stated that anyone at the table could ask to see any players cards once it gets to showdown (regardless of if all the players are all-in or not)- I also dont think this is correct and that the request should be from a player involved in the hand up to the point a winning hand is declared.

Cam someone verify either or both of these cases for me, and give me a reference? Who MUST show and who can request? - I am pretty sure the caller is allowed to muck. {We do however force hands to be shown if there is no more action pre-river with at least one player all in}
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld
sodawater
sodawater
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January 29th, 2014 at 2:07:57 PM permalink
Any hand that was eligible to win the pot at showdown can be requested to be opened by any player at the table. The dealer must open the hand if requested. If a player other than the player who won the pot requested it, the dealer should first kill the hand by touching it to the muck, and then open it. If the player who won the pot requests to see a folded hand, the dealer should NOT touch it to the muck, as it is still eligible to win the showdown.

The reason for these rules is to prevent collusion. By requesting a folded hand to be opened, a player is implying he suspects collusion. The rule should not be abused, and it should not be used to "needle" someone. It also should not be used to collect extra information.

The only valid reason for "IWTSTH" (I want to see that hand) is to prevent or investigate collusion.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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January 29th, 2014 at 2:11:19 PM permalink
At Headsup, it is correct to deal to the non dealer first.
However, the dealer is the small blind, and acts first before the flop. After the flop, the other player acts first.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
paisiello
paisiello
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January 29th, 2014 at 2:34:51 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

The only valid reason for "IWTSTH" (I want to see that hand) is to prevent or investigate collusion.


Stupidest rule in poker. No one actually uses this rule to investigate collusion. They use this rule to get free information and to try and put players on tilt.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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January 29th, 2014 at 2:38:43 PM permalink
When I fold, I just fling my cards into the muck so they are unrecoverable.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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January 29th, 2014 at 2:49:55 PM permalink
I'm very confused, but I don't play at that level. If any player is conceding the hand at any point, don't they have the right to muck their cards without showing? That seems very unfair, as it gives other players a barometer with which to measure the player's bluffs and value bets. I do watch WSOP and other events, and I've never seen someone have to show a losing hand after they've seen the winner except during an all-in. I thought the last raiser was the first to expose, and others could show or muck as they wanted. How can it be selectively enforced if that's not correct?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
sodawater
sodawater
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January 29th, 2014 at 2:57:05 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm very confused, but I don't play at that level. If any player is conceding the hand at any point, don't they have the right to muck their cards without showing? That seems very unfair, as it gives other players a barometer with which to measure the player's bluffs and value bets. I do watch WSOP and other events, and I've never seen someone have to show a losing hand after they've seen the winner except during an all-in. I thought the last raiser was the first to expose, and others could show or muck as they wanted. How can it be selectively enforced if that's not correct?



1. Only hands eligible to win the pot at showdown can be asked to be seen. So if you fold before that, your cards cannot be shown.

2. The rule does give away information if abused. A good dealer/floor/poker room director will make it very clear that the rule is not to be abused, and only used when suspecting collusion.

3. At showdown, if no one wants to turn over his cards, the player making the last bet or raise on that street must show first, with remaining hands opened in turn clockwise from that player. If the last street was checked, then the player in earliest position must open first, with remaining hands opened in turn clockwise from that player. Players may muck their hands instead of opening.

4. The entire hand must be shown to win a pot at showdown. Even if a showdown is checked, and all players but one muck their hands, that player must show his hand to take the pot.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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January 29th, 2014 at 2:58:43 PM permalink
That sounds much more reasonable, soda, thanks for the clarification.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Malaru
Malaru
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January 29th, 2014 at 3:08:26 PM permalink
One more question if I may Soda- thanks for your input..

I have been told that if a player tosses or puts forward his cards and they touch the community cards, that this is considered mucked as well as if they touch the much pile- does this sound correct?
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld
sodawater
sodawater
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January 29th, 2014 at 3:16:13 PM permalink
Quote: Malaru

One more question if I may Soda- thanks for your input..

I have been told that if a player tosses or puts forward his cards and they touch the community cards, that this is considered mucked as well as if they touch the much pile- does this sound correct?



It depends on the situation.

If, when facing a bet, a player tosses forward his cards facedown, that's a fold, and the hand is dead. That's a binding action. Doesn't matter if they touch community cards. There's nothing special about the community cards -- they are considered part of the table.

If a player is trying to expose his cards for showdown, and they accidentally get tossed forward facedown, they can be retrieved if they haven't made contact with the muck. Doesn't matter if they touch the community cards-- the community cards are face up and thus cannot be confused with the player's cards. But facedown cards touching the muck are always dead. "Protect your hand' is the rule.

You didn't ask this, but there is one more situation you should be familiar with. If the player exposes a winning hand face up at showdown, the dealer takes those face up cards and kills them in the muck and then pushes the pot to a competing player, the player with the original winning hand still gets the pot. That's part of the "cards speak" rule.

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