ok here's my beat (in honor of earlier .5-1 thread)
January 16th, 2014 at 9:44:34 PM
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Let's pick apart the exact moment I went wrong.
i sit down with $300
2-5, real world table. my third hand, on the button, there's a 10 dollar straddle, by the time it comes around to me, there are about 5 people in.
I have KK.
I raise 35, 4 people call.
flop is 4Q10, action checks around to me.
I cbet $45. 3 people call.
Turn is K. action checks around to me.
I raise 100
everyone folds but one who raises $250, he's to my right.
I go all in. He has j9
River is a blank.
I figure the guy had a AK or two pair, if he had straight, I was committed, board could still pair.
What would've been best raise preflop with KK? Should've I gone all in.
When the third K came down and everyone checked around, should I have checked?
Was I committed with $80 + $100 in?
i sit down with $300
2-5, real world table. my third hand, on the button, there's a 10 dollar straddle, by the time it comes around to me, there are about 5 people in.
I have KK.
I raise 35, 4 people call.
flop is 4Q10, action checks around to me.
I cbet $45. 3 people call.
Turn is K. action checks around to me.
I raise 100
everyone folds but one who raises $250, he's to my right.
I go all in. He has j9
River is a blank.
I figure the guy had a AK or two pair, if he had straight, I was committed, board could still pair.
What would've been best raise preflop with KK? Should've I gone all in.
When the third K came down and everyone checked around, should I have checked?
Was I committed with $80 + $100 in?
January 16th, 2014 at 10:06:42 PM
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Maybe I'm reading this wrong ,but....don't you win with your set of K's against his missed open ended straight??
January 16th, 2014 at 10:14:13 PM
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That's why Phil Helmeuth always says, "why so much?"
I am a robot.
January 16th, 2014 at 10:24:59 PM
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Quote: UTHfanLet's pick apart the exact moment I went wrong.
i sit down with $300
2-5, real world table. my third hand, on the button, there's a 10 dollar straddle, by the time it comes around to me, there are about 5 people in.
I have KK.
I raise 35, 4 people call.
flop is 4Q10, action checks around to me.
I cbet $45. 3 people call.
River is K. action checks around to me.
I raise 100
everyone folds but one who raises $250, he's to my right.
I go all in. He has j9
River is a blank.
I figure the guy had a AK or two pair, if he had straight, I was committed, board could still pair.
What would've been best raise preflop with KK? Should've I gone all in.
When the third K came down and everyone checked around, should I have checked?
Was I committed with $80 + $100 in?
I think you under bet your initial raise, especially with a straddle and 4 other callers.
IMO, I would raise 5 x the straddle ($50), especially on a 2-5 game with (obviously) loose players. The straddle can work two ways. It can make people make stupid calls because the straddle is more than likely blind or it can give the straddle the opportunity to buy the pot.
I would raise a little higher than you are confortable with so that you can find out where you are and simultaneously put some pressure on the initial callers. Remember you still have the 2nd best opening hand. Guys playing against a straddle would not have been able to flat call with Aces so you had to know you were best when it came to your turn to act!
If you have 5 callers in front of you, get as many of them out and play against the smaller pairs or perhaps suited connectors (which can be dangerous).
EDIT: Looks like the turn is missing fromt he story. It may have made the callers hand and beat the set. Not sure UTH, perhaps you can let us know? If it is a bad beat then obviously he filled his straight.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
January 16th, 2014 at 10:27:26 PM
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Quote: DreamerMaybe I'm reading this wrong ,but....don't you win with your set of K's against his missed open ended straight??
Flop had Q 10, turn K other guy had J 9....9 10 J Q K
Seems op wrote the river twice... I think it is supposed to be turn K river useless card
Part of it went on gambling, and part of it went on women. The rest I spent foolishly.
-George Raft
January 16th, 2014 at 10:31:08 PM
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Quote: TranscendFlop had Q 10, turn K other guy had J 9....9 10 J Q K
Seems op wrote the river twice... I think it is supposed to be turn K river useless card
Yeah that sounds about right.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
January 16th, 2014 at 10:43:24 PM
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As I initially suspected I did read it wrong. I would have to agree with an earlier poster, had your pre flop raise been higher you may have pushed out his J 9 right from the start. By your raise being so low you may have been giving him correct odds to call and allowing him to stay in the hand with his speculative holdings.
January 16th, 2014 at 10:44:06 PM
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Quote: UTHfanLet's pick apart the exact moment I went wrong.
You failed to dodge his straight draw.
I would've bet more preflop. I haven't played in a while, but I think this was a situation where I used to push a lot, say down to ATo/A8s, KQ, 77, assuming there were no frequent limp-re-raisers in the game. Something like that. But if you don't feel like doing that, I'd still raise more than 3.5 blinds after 5 limpers.
I also would've bet more on the flop. 1/4 pot is light.
Once it's straddled, it's a 10/5 game (or a little bigger with the sb).
January 16th, 2014 at 10:54:13 PM
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Quote: socksYou failed to dodge his straight draw.
I would've bet more preflop. I haven't played in a while, but I think this was a situation where I used to push a lot, say down to ATo/A8s, KQ, 77, assuming there were no frequent limp-re-raisers in the game. Something like that. But if you don't feel like doing that, I'd still raise more than 3.5 blinds after 5 limpers.
I also would've bet more on the flop. 1/4 pot is light.
Once it's straddled, it's a 10/5 game (or a little bigger with the sb).
I agree with socks, the game changed dramatically as soon as the straddle is introduced. There is no value in a raise that small with 5 callers in front of you. The worst that could happen is exactly what did happen, the junk remained in because they felt that with the straddle, they had pot odds for calling your very medium raise. Remember you have to see it from their perspective too. Here you have a medium raise on the button with 5 callers. They see you as possibly weak and trying to buy the straddle. Next time, be a little more aggressive. The worst thing that can happen then is you get called with Aces, which is not very likely in that spo AT ALL.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
January 16th, 2014 at 11:20:03 PM
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Yep, with the straddle this is basically a 5/10 game now, so raise to 60 or 70 so pre. And bet closer to 2/3rds of the pot on the flop.
January 16th, 2014 at 11:46:50 PM
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I know, right? I wanted action but not junk that would kill me. I should have made a pot sized bet which would have been about 50-60. Or probably have gone all in after flop. I was surprised no one reraised me on my preflop raise.
Yes, to earlier poster, the guy did get the straight (I edited it, K was turn card, river was a blank).
Yes, to earlier poster, the guy did get the straight (I edited it, K was turn card, river was a blank).
January 17th, 2014 at 12:26:07 AM
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Betting your bankroll on the 3rd hand in a game you just sat down in ? Did you know the other players ? With 4 callers on that flop, I would have expected someone might have AJ. And with the $250 bet, I might have laid it down.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 17th, 2014 at 8:18:12 AM
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Quote: BuzzardBetting your bankroll on the 3rd hand in a game you just sat down in ? Did you know the other players ? With 4 callers on that flop, I would have expected someone might have AJ. And with the $250 bet, I might have laid it down.
Chances are I'm the only person who didn't understand the straddle reference, but I found a good article on it here in case it's useful to anyone else following the thread.
On page 2, they discuss the strategy and dynamics of the straddle bet and what it does to the table. Seems very pertinent to your dilemma, seeing as you were only in your third hand and who knows what else the table had experienced before that.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
January 17th, 2014 at 8:19:12 AM
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General agreement with the advice here:
-Maybe pop it a bit more preflop
-The bet on the flop was too light.
-You came in with a bit less cash than you should have if you knew people were regularly stradling (something you may not have known).
Since you didn't mention suits I'm guess there was nothing there. But if two flop cards were suited I would have feared an two big suited cards with straight potential (AJs, AKs, KJs) since that is exactly the kind of hand I would love to play 5 players to the flop.
However, after his raise on the turn you were committed. You had a decent chance at being right on your guess at his hand (having a win over a lesser set, two pair, or AK). And in the worst case scenario (he has a made straight or flush), you still had pot odds which demanded a call. All you needed was board to pair (10 outs) for the full house/quads. You were facing 120 to win a pot of around 700 (I think). You had to call at that point.
-Maybe pop it a bit more preflop
-The bet on the flop was too light.
-You came in with a bit less cash than you should have if you knew people were regularly stradling (something you may not have known).
Since you didn't mention suits I'm guess there was nothing there. But if two flop cards were suited I would have feared an two big suited cards with straight potential (AJs, AKs, KJs) since that is exactly the kind of hand I would love to play 5 players to the flop.
However, after his raise on the turn you were committed. You had a decent chance at being right on your guess at his hand (having a win over a lesser set, two pair, or AK). And in the worst case scenario (he has a made straight or flush), you still had pot odds which demanded a call. All you needed was board to pair (10 outs) for the full house/quads. You were facing 120 to win a pot of around 700 (I think). You had to call at that point.
January 17th, 2014 at 8:27:31 AM
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This sounds painfully familiar. I have made the same darn mistake twice and its cost be my all in. I made it with my jacks and I have made it with AA where a guy caught a 9,9,5 to make a boat and beat my THREE aces.
January 17th, 2014 at 8:56:48 AM
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When you're writing hand histories, use T for ten instead of 10 for ten.
January 17th, 2014 at 9:09:25 AM
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Quote: beachbumbabsChances are I'm the only person who didn't understand the straddle reference, but I found a good article on it here in case it's useful to anyone else following the thread.
On page 2, they discuss the strategy and dynamics of the straddle bet and what it does to the table. Seems very pertinent to your dilemma, seeing as you were only in your third hand and who knows what else the table had experienced before that.
Whoever wrote that the hand was now a 5/10 hand bc of the straddle...yeah, that was helpful to think of it that way. I should have put up more, my 35 was only 3.5 times the real BB. At least a pot sized bet based on my position and the number of people already in.
January 17th, 2014 at 9:28:34 AM
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**Betting your bankroll on the 3rd hand in a game you just sat down in ? Did you know the other players ? With 4 callers on that flop, I would have expected someone might have AJ. And with the $250 bet, I might have laid it down.**
Sure why not, I've hit the ground running many times. In my short time playing, I sat down & sunk a guy and his subsequent rebuy with an all in on my boat and then another all in on a straight in 3 hands.
On the other hand, I am pissed at my post flop play for falling in love with my hand and ignoring the board. I should be smart enough to lay down trips when things go crazy. So, the bad play hurts more than my buy-in.
My play was just weak enough to let someone without paint or a pair stay in the hand. I didn't see the warning sign with QT on the flop or the red flag with XQTK on the turn bc I was seeing dollar signs. Technically, I had 10 outs for the quad/boat but I imagine most of those cards were canabalized bc other players had the other K and/or Q plus a few J's.
Sure why not, I've hit the ground running many times. In my short time playing, I sat down & sunk a guy and his subsequent rebuy with an all in on my boat and then another all in on a straight in 3 hands.
On the other hand, I am pissed at my post flop play for falling in love with my hand and ignoring the board. I should be smart enough to lay down trips when things go crazy. So, the bad play hurts more than my buy-in.
My play was just weak enough to let someone without paint or a pair stay in the hand. I didn't see the warning sign with QT on the flop or the red flag with XQTK on the turn bc I was seeing dollar signs. Technically, I had 10 outs for the quad/boat but I imagine most of those cards were canabalized bc other players had the other K and/or Q plus a few J's.
January 17th, 2014 at 10:59:13 AM
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when you are betting (either made hand or bluffing), you need to make the bet an amount that causes your opponent to think. he needs to evaluate the money in the pot with the value of his hand. by the time you raised, there was already $57 in the pot. your $35 makes it $92. assuming the blinds fold, the straddle bettor only has to call $25 for a chance to win $92. at almost 4:1, any middle hand or better will call. once the first few players call, the others are getting even better odds to call.
going into the flop, there is now almost $200 in the pot, so your bet of $45 is not going to get any drawing hand to go away. the open ended draw hits about 30% of the time. so he's getting 5:1 on a hand that only has to win 3:1 to break even. in that situation, you can expect to get called every time.
as others have said, it was your light raise pre-flop. if you are the first to raise, 3x-6x the blind is pretty standard, but once someone raises you need to bet the pot. had you raised to $60 instead of $35 the JT would have had to call $50 to win $117. 2.5:1 is not nearly as enticing for such a weak hand.
but, all this goes out the window if you're playing with a bunch of rich and/or drunk people throwing their money around.
going into the flop, there is now almost $200 in the pot, so your bet of $45 is not going to get any drawing hand to go away. the open ended draw hits about 30% of the time. so he's getting 5:1 on a hand that only has to win 3:1 to break even. in that situation, you can expect to get called every time.
as others have said, it was your light raise pre-flop. if you are the first to raise, 3x-6x the blind is pretty standard, but once someone raises you need to bet the pot. had you raised to $60 instead of $35 the JT would have had to call $50 to win $117. 2.5:1 is not nearly as enticing for such a weak hand.
but, all this goes out the window if you're playing with a bunch of rich and/or drunk people throwing their money around.
January 17th, 2014 at 11:35:45 AM
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it wasn't even JT but J9. thanks to all for the feed back.
At MdLive, I found that most players at 2-5 react to the bet, not to the pot odds. I should have used my brain to push harder decisions.
At MdLive, I found that most players at 2-5 react to the bet, not to the pot odds. I should have used my brain to push harder decisions.
January 17th, 2014 at 11:46:06 AM
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UTH I have not been since table games arrived, how do you like MD. Live
January 17th, 2014 at 1:52:30 PM
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I like it alot. The bad things though: On one busy night, I noticed a lot of trash piling up around tables. The waitresses are generally hot but slow but nice enough.
Also, the tables are smaller than elsewhere, there is no "track" area on the perimeter. The shufflemaster is poorly placed in the middle of table to impede card distribution. The promos are deficient compared to Charlestown.
Someone else who's been to Borgata can chime in on how things are?
Also, the tables are smaller than elsewhere, there is no "track" area on the perimeter. The shufflemaster is poorly placed in the middle of table to impede card distribution. The promos are deficient compared to Charlestown.
Someone else who's been to Borgata can chime in on how things are?
January 17th, 2014 at 1:56:44 PM
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Well if things stay on schedule, the Horseshoe should be opening in about 6 months.
February 5th, 2014 at 5:37:19 PM
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Quote: socksYou failed to dodge his straight draw.
I would've bet more preflop. I haven't played in a while, but I think this was a situation where I used to push a lot, say down to ATo/A8s, KQ, 77, assuming there were no frequent limp-re-raisers in the game. Something like that. But if you don't feel like doing that, I'd still raise more than 3.5 blinds after 5 limpers.
I also would've bet more on the flop. 1/4 pot is light.
Once it's straddled, it's a 10/5 game (or a little bigger with the sb).
Socks and others along this line are right on. 4/5 limpers straddles and your late holding KK? $100, no less than $80 in a 2/5. You want one call if any. I doubt J9 Suited or off is likely to call. High pair might, Suited AQ/AK might, AA should. Thats what you want.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
February 5th, 2014 at 5:50:07 PM
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Most people have been focusing on your pre-flop raise while I've only seen a few brief mentions of your flop bet.
If I follow correctly, that pot is $45 x 5, and you bet $45 into it on the flop. This isn't just light, I think this is wrong. You are letting someone with J9 or JK lay 1-6 to outdraw you, and they will hit on the turn between 12% to 16% of the time (depending on the holding). This doesn't even account for the reverse implied odds of them stacking you.
You have the strongest hand almost all the time here, you should try and win it on the flop, or find out right there you are behind. I think pot would over-commit, but you are short-stacked for a 2-5 straddle game so there's not many other options. $125 is my choice.
If I follow correctly, that pot is $45 x 5, and you bet $45 into it on the flop. This isn't just light, I think this is wrong. You are letting someone with J9 or JK lay 1-6 to outdraw you, and they will hit on the turn between 12% to 16% of the time (depending on the holding). This doesn't even account for the reverse implied odds of them stacking you.
You have the strongest hand almost all the time here, you should try and win it on the flop, or find out right there you are behind. I think pot would over-commit, but you are short-stacked for a 2-5 straddle game so there's not many other options. $125 is my choice.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
February 5th, 2014 at 6:18:31 PM
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Quote: dwheatleyMost people have been focusing on your pre-flop raise while I've only seen a few brief mentions of your flop bet.
If I follow correctly, that pot is $45 x 5, and you bet $45 into it on the flop. This isn't just light, I think this is wrong. You are letting someone with J9 or JK lay 1-6 to outdraw you, and they will hit on the turn between 12% to 16% of the time (depending on the holding). This doesn't even account for the reverse implied odds of them stacking you.
You have the strongest hand almost all the time here, you should try and win it on the flop, or find out right there you are behind. I think pot would over-commit, but you are short-stacked for a 2-5 straddle game so there's not many other options. $125 is my choice.
I absolutely agree, even though $125 might be too light too. Taking down the pot on the flop is what you want here just because of board texture. You don't want to give anybody a "brainfart" to think that perhaps calling down in that spot is OK. Half the pot is too light imo, I would make it stiff and find out what is behind you......$150 raise will sort the men from the boys. Nobody call in that spot unless they are fish, stupid or have a made hand.
Hope all this info will help you make the right choice next time :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 5th, 2014 at 8:55:23 PM
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Thanks again, folks.
I was probably done in by the flop when the guy found himself with an open ended straight. I wonder if all-in post-flop would've shaken him.
With $50 already in the pot by the time it got to me in great position, I should have bet more...pot plus 5 BB.
I was once again done in by my cowboys when my preflop raise, under the gun this time, was not enough to shake a guy with ducks.
His ducks hit, obviously invisible to me until too late. I was under the gun and I only bet $35 to see if anyone would reraise. Under the gun, good hand, how much to raise?
Oh well, back to the grind.
I was probably done in by the flop when the guy found himself with an open ended straight. I wonder if all-in post-flop would've shaken him.
With $50 already in the pot by the time it got to me in great position, I should have bet more...pot plus 5 BB.
I was once again done in by my cowboys when my preflop raise, under the gun this time, was not enough to shake a guy with ducks.
His ducks hit, obviously invisible to me until too late. I was under the gun and I only bet $35 to see if anyone would reraise. Under the gun, good hand, how much to raise?
Oh well, back to the grind.
February 5th, 2014 at 8:58:03 PM
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All you can do is get your money in with the best hands. After that it is all up to the poker Gods, who sometimes have an evil sense of humor.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 5th, 2014 at 9:01:10 PM
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They were punishing me for hubris, I tell you what.
February 5th, 2014 at 9:18:07 PM
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Quote: onenickelmiracleThat's why Phil Helmeuth always says, "why so much?"
I did a basic google and read one of his books...huh?
February 5th, 2014 at 9:37:54 PM
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Quote: UTHfanI did a basic google and read one of his books...huh?
I wouldn't suggest reading anything he writes......He is an average poker player and crazy as a 3 ringed circus.......in my opinion of course!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 5th, 2014 at 10:36:00 PM
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More like... crazy like a FOX.Quote: TomspurI wouldn't suggest reading anything he writes......He is an average poker player and crazy as a 3 ringed circus.......in my opinion of course!
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
February 5th, 2014 at 11:02:09 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfMore like... crazy like a FOX.
Like Megan Fox?? The girl with the gnome thumbs??? Still hot though!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 5th, 2014 at 11:07:36 PM
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Quote: TomspurI wouldn't suggest reading anything he writes......He is an average poker player and crazy as a 3 ringed circus.......in my opinion of course!
lol the man who was at one point the youngest main event champion and the winner of the most WSOP bracelets (13) is average?
is the wizard average at math?
casino's money disappears
the execs worry when the wizard is near
He turns tears into joy
Everyone's happy when the wizard walks by
February 6th, 2014 at 12:21:39 AM
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Quote: OzzyOsbournelol the man who was at one point the youngest main event champion and the winner of the most WSOP bracelets (13) is average?
is the wizard average at math?
I did qualify it by saying "in my opinion" didn't I? Also his poker playing and his book writing have nothing to do with one another. I still think he is average and his writing ability ranks somewhere below the "save the spotted owl" foundation.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 6th, 2014 at 8:53:31 AM
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Watching Helmuth on Poker After Dark, it is funny to see him do something and think...I read that in your book.
Most "I am good at something, let me write a book" guys actually work with a ghost writer, I'm sure Phil did too.
Also, Phil's play is insane because he's entered full time megalomaniac play. He feels he can bully any pot but, no, only Dwan can do that.
Most "I am good at something, let me write a book" guys actually work with a ghost writer, I'm sure Phil did too.
Also, Phil's play is insane because he's entered full time megalomaniac play. He feels he can bully any pot but, no, only Dwan can do that.
February 8th, 2014 at 3:09:37 PM
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You've got to think of this as more close to a situation where you're playing 30BB deep (Considering the straddle) and most other people are probably significantly deeper. By the time it limps around to you, there's 2+5+10 plus 4 other players for 10, right? So that makes the pot 57 dollars. Since you have 300 behind, and other people likely have more (and have commited some already) you do not want to bet so small that they're priced in to continue. So go with something like 2-3BB plus one for every extra player. That'd be a bet of 60-80 dollars. Since you are pretty shallow stacked, I would take the smaller end of that and bet it to 60 or 65 preflop.
Say you'd get one caller in this case. Then the pot is 57+110=167 before rake. Now you have 235 behind, which is a good size to bet half pot on any non A high flop, and shove the turn on boards that aren't too wet.
If you get two callers, the pot ends up being 165+57=222 and you have 35 behind. You can shove the flop, but I like to check-call and shove the turn or check raise this flop.
If you get more callers than that, it's a pretty easy shove on the flop unless you have specific reads (which I don't think you did here.)
I also wouldn't sit down at 2-5 with 300 bucks, unless you're extremely well studied in 25-40 BB poker, because that's tough to beat with the rake.
Say you'd get one caller in this case. Then the pot is 57+110=167 before rake. Now you have 235 behind, which is a good size to bet half pot on any non A high flop, and shove the turn on boards that aren't too wet.
If you get two callers, the pot ends up being 165+57=222 and you have 35 behind. You can shove the flop, but I like to check-call and shove the turn or check raise this flop.
If you get more callers than that, it's a pretty easy shove on the flop unless you have specific reads (which I don't think you did here.)
I also wouldn't sit down at 2-5 with 300 bucks, unless you're extremely well studied in 25-40 BB poker, because that's tough to beat with the rake.
February 9th, 2014 at 12:11:59 PM
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Interesting, the sit-down here for 2-5 is 200-500. I sat down with 300 which is my normal starting amt. I've had good results with that amount. But even at 500 max buy in, that's not much more. I mean, the guy got the nuts when I hit my trips. I should've been more caution with such an obvious broadway on the board.
