Question: n-player No-limit Holdem

I have a mathematical question regarding which cards pairings to play during the pre-flop in a "n" player no-limit Holdem:

note: The scenario below assumes you know nothing regarding the playing style of your opponents.

For an positive integer n > 1, should one always play the top 1/n hands in an n-player game?

For instance, suppose there are 6 players;

1) This is wizard's pre-flop power hand ratings for a six player game; ex https://wizardofodds.com/games/texas-hold-em/6-player-game/

2) If the hypothesis above is correct, then I'd only play the top 17% percent of them: In the table above, there are 169 hands, so I'd only play the first 29 of them on the list (or anything that has OVER A 24% chance of winning in a scenario where all 6 players play until the end/river).

...................

" in a scenario where all 6 players play until the end/river). "

Can I get a seat at that table ?

I just don't think there is a simple formula you can use. The less players involved the more important position becomes. I believe in a heads up game you should be playing over 80% of the hands to see the flop from the big blind.

Yeah, this is an over simplification. You need to look at opening recommendations by position.

At a 9-handed table you might be like this "Under the Gun" (first to act):
UTG: 99+, AQo+

But if it folds to you on the button, you could be as wide as this (I have no idea if this is too tight or too loose...it's ~close):
BTN: 22+, Ax+, Kxs+, K6o+, Q8s+, Q9o+, J7s+, J9o+, T8s+, T9o, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s

Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, this is an over simplification. You need to look at opening recommendations by position.

At a 9-handed table you might be like this "Under the Gun" (first to act):
UTG: 99+, AQo+

But if it folds to you on the button, you could be as wide as this (I have no idea if this is too tight or too loose...it's ~close):
BTN: 22+, Ax+, Kxs+, K6o+, Q8s+, Q9o+, J7s+, J9o+, T8s+, T9o, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s

If I were to generalize this, the more people who you know that fold, then the more the more "range" you have?? Or if your the player right after the BIG BLIND, then you have a average range. which can become bigger or narrower based on the number that fold (which is a guess if your not on the button)?

Quote: Jamix

If I were to generalize this, the more people who you know that fold, then the more the more "range" you have?? Or if your the player right after the BIG BLIND, then you have a average range. which can become bigger or narrower based on the number that fold (which is a guess if your not on the button)?

Um...the first part...not the second part. Think about it roughly this way: People who fold in front of you don't exist for that hand. So if 9 people are at the table, and 4 fold in front of you. There are 5 left playing. At a 5-handed table being first to act, raising with 55 or KQo is a reasonable play, but would be a fold if you were first to act with 9 people at the table.

Quote: tringlomane

Um...the first part...not the second part. Think about it roughly this way: People who fold in front of you don't exist for that hand. So if 9 people are at the table, and 4 fold in front of you. There are 5 left playing. At a 5-handed table being first to act, raising with 55 or KQo is a reasonable play, but would be a fold if you were first to act with 9 people at the table.

Thanks. So essentially if "k" people ahead of you fold in an "n" player game, then you should use a pre-flop betting strategy suitable for "n-k" players??

Quote: Jamix

Thanks. So essentially if "k" people ahead of you fold in an "n" player game, then you should use a pre-flop betting strategy suitable for "n-k" players??

I believe it's easier to think about in terms of how many people you have to go through to get at the blinds. That's the goal. Count from the BTN, not the BB/#folds.

" I have no idea if this is too tight or too loose...it's ~close" No, it is not close. What if you have 3 guys that are ramming and jamming
every hand pre-flop? Or at a table where everybody stays till the river ? Or at a table where there is usually only 1 or 2 callers ?

The key to win poker is playing the players. In the long run, everybody get the same cards. Starting hands are different for limit and no-limit, even if players at each gave have the same characteristics. Starting hands constantly change in a tournament for so many
different factors.

This is a good stating point and has a great chart for starting hands on loose or tight tables.

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Stakes-Hold-Winning-Expert/dp/1880685329/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1381432374&sr=8-7&keywords=low+limit+poker

Quote: Buzzard

" I have no idea if this is too tight or too loose...it's ~close" No, it is not close. What if you have 3 guys that are ramming and jamming
every hand pre-flop? Or at a table where everybody stays till the river ? Or at a table where there is usually only 1 or 2 callers ?

The key to win poker is playing the players. In the long run, everybody get the same cards. Starting hands are different for limit and no-limit, even if players at each gave have the same characteristics. Starting hands constantly change in a tournament for so many
different factors.

This is a good stating point and has a great chart for starting hands on loose or tight tables.

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Stakes-Hold-Winning-Expert/dp/1880685329/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1381432374&sr=8-7&keywords=low+limit+poker

Sure it's better to play the players, but if you are playing against people you have never played before, it's not a bad idea to have some type of base line. SSHE is not a bad book, but it's also geared toward limit, and is about decade old. I would also consider reading something like "Professional no-limit Hold 'em" afterward. NLHE has advanced a lot since both of these books, and I also haven't kept up as much with the game as much as I should have. And if I am not "close", what are you playing on the button vs. people you have never played before in your life in a no-limit cash game?

OP, if you want better poker advice generally, you really should go to 2+2 Poker Forum.

" what are you playing on the button vs. people you have never played before in your life in a no-limit cash game? "

This is my biggest complaint about 2+2. So many questions have not enough information ! Should I play AK on the button, should I reraise with qq in second round of a tournament and similar bullshit questions with missed facts. What is player's table image ? stack size, bankroll, etc.

What would I play ? was the pot raised ? how many callers ? If I call how many are still to act ? How much money do I have on the table ? How much do others have? Do I need this money ? That's why I suggest SSHE if player is a novice. I would also recommend live action low limit tournaments as easiest way to pay his dues !

Quote: Buzzard

" what are you playing on the button vs. people you have never played before in your life in a no-limit cash game? "

This is my biggest complaint about 2+2. So many questions have not enough information ! Should I play AK on the button, should I reraise with qq in second round of a tournament and similar bullshit questions with missed facts. What is player's table image ? stack size, bankroll, etc.

What would I play ? was the pot raised ? how many callers ? If I call how many are still to act ? How much money do I have on the table ? How much do others have? Do I need this money ? That's why I suggest SSHE if player is a novice. I would also recommend live action low limit tournaments as easiest way to pay his dues !

Well, poker is a game of imperfect information. But that doesn't mean you can't have a base game plan vs. people you know nothing about and adjust from that base as you gain info on their habits. And when I asked you, I meant what would you do when it was folded to you on the button sorry if that wasn't clear. If someone raised in front of you, you would never play something like K8o on the button unless you want to bleed chips.

And 2+2 as a whole is a zoo of various questions, I will agree with that. If OP does take a look at 2+2, the "Beginners Questions" section should be sufficient to start with.

And low limit tournaments are a cheaper way to play, but then I would also recommend reading something like "Kill Phil" or "Kill Everyone" because daily tournaments get shallow stacks very quickly where jam/fold often becomes one of your better options. And what's awesome about those tourneys, most players will limp in with only 5 big blinds left...lol

It that case, I would probably raise with any 2 cards to see what happened.

Quote: tringlomane

And low limit tournaments are a cheaper way to play, but then I would also recommend reading something like "Kill Phil" or "Kill Everyone" because daily tournaments get shallow stacks very quickly where jam/fold often becomes one of your better options. And what's awesome about those tourneys, most players will limp in with only 5 big blinds left...lol

If I wanted to attack the low buy-in, fast structured, daily poker tournaments in Las Vegas, then Arnold Snyder's "Poker Tournament Formula" would be on my night stand. I've already read the book once and was highly impressed with Arnold's technique. I always avoided those tournaments because of the high juice, but after reading Arnold's book, if I had it to do over again I would take a shot.

Quote: tringlomane

Sure it's better to play the players, but if you are playing against people you have never played before, it's not a bad idea to have some type of base line.

OP, if you want better poker advice generally, you really should go to 2+2 Poker Forum.

BASLE-LINE is the key term here for me: Essentially if one doesn't have a standard of play against "neutral/unknown" opponents, then won't know how to alter that strategy (as indeed they have no standard to begin with) when playing against tight/loose opponents.

That 2+2 sight looks very helpful, thanks for sending it; Thus far I've developed my own "very" simple strategy based on that various stat charts for 2,3,4 and 6 players, which are described on the Wizard Of Odds website. However in those models, the EV was always calculated based on the assumption that all players never fold their hands and keep playing until the end. Also, because my strategy doesn't involve a "post-flop" plan, I only fold, or go "all-in" during the pre-flop lol

Quote: Jamix

BASLE-LINE is the key term here for me: Essentially if one doesn't have a standard of play against "neutral/unknown" opponents, then won't know how to alter that strategy (as indeed they have no standard to begin with) when playing against tight/loose opponents.

That 2+2 sight looks very helpful, thanks for sending it; Thus far I've developed my own "very" simple strategy based on that various stat charts for 2,3,4 and 6 players, which are described on the Wizard Of Odds website. However in those models, the EV was always calculated based on the assumption that all players never fold their hands and keep playing until the end. Also, because my strategy doesn't involve a "post-flop" plan, I only fold, or go "all-in" during the pre-flop lol

Read Arnold Snyder, brother. Else you have no way out of the trap. It's not about them, brother. It's about you.

It's about you. What kind of personality can you develop. How much trash are you willing to develop on your friend?. Who do you want to play NLH with? Your friends or your enemies? Your enemy is not always available. So now who are you going to pick on, spook?

Quote: tringlomane

Um...the first part...not the second part. Think about it roughly this way: People who fold in front of you don't exist for that hand. So if 9 people are at the table, and 4 fold in front of you. There are 5 left playing. At a 5-handed table being first to act, raising with 55 or KQo is a reasonable play, but would be a fold if you were first to act with 9 people at the table.

This is a sorta kinda close analysis.... although it's slightly different. There are small card removal effects based on people folding, although they are relatively small. But besides this, people loosen up a lot in a 5 handed game compared to a 9 handed game, and there are plenty of games where KQo is a raise from EP...

To be clear about what I mean by card removal effects for anyone who doesn't know what I mean, if nobody stays in the pot and you're on the button, the blinds are more likely to hold an ace than if UTG raises and UTG+1 calls... But you still want to play a kinda wide range in this spot in a deepstacked game from the button just because of the advantage of position. The correlation is relatively small - but should def. be thought about... it's one of the big reasons that if you get AA in the BB, there's a much larger chance action folds around to you or that the raisers are in later poistions than if you're dealt QQ or JJ...

Like I said it's a pretty good explanation, but the thing with poker is that any general answer you give has 1000 exceptions.