I just donked off 200 BB!

EDIT: In my rush I said 200BB, it's less. more like 120ish BB.

I was playing solid poker all night, running my 100 dollar buy in at 1/2 into 450.

We were down to six handed and I was playing super aggressive the last few hands (at first I just made a move, which was succesful, picked up a couple blinds and hit a few nice hands.) I had raised the last 4 hands preflop and I look down at 9H9D. Naturally I raise out of the BB to 12 dollars, which was my standard if there were any limpers. Everyone folds except the button. I was expecting his call with any 2 cards b/c of how I was playing.

Flop comes 4S 9C 7S

I bet out my standard continuation bet, 18 dollars. I get called.

Turn
8H
I bet 27, villain calls

River
6D

I bet out 40, get re raised all in for 151 more.

At this point I know I'm beat. I should have been 100% sure this guy had hit his straight, b/c he wouldn't shove w/o a great hand against me, who was raising aggressively pre-flop, as I could easily have held the 5. I know I should have folded, yet I somehow convinced myself that he could be holding a busted flush draw. Logically, I can't see how he would, b/c he knows that i can easily have a straight, I can easily have so many hands that would beat him he can't even shove with a 5. Even if he thought I had the 5 and wanted to push me off of it, I don't know. It's possible but not likely. I must have had about 2% equity...

Blah. I don't even need help looking at that hand. I should have either bet bigger on the turn and then folded to his expected re raise or just folded the river exactly when he went all in. I was looking at close to no equity yet somehow I called....

I'm just disappointed in myself for making such a donk call. Know the feeling?

deleted

It can be really difficult to let a hand like Flopped Trips go when you already have almost $100 in the pot and the Push is only for 1.5x more than what you already have in there. Pot commitment can be a very ugly thing, at times.

It would have been really tough to fold after the push, but having already gotten yourself into that situation, that'd be the right play.

Given how aggressively you had been betting anyway, (and I might even do this were it not the case) I would have probably just pushed all-in after the Flop. There's nothing that he could have had at that point that would beat your hand, and he might think you were trying to steal it. I'd have pushed hoping that maybe he had a high pair or had hit two pair. It wouldn't have changed the result had he called, (and he probably wouldn't have) but at least you would go from donking 200 BB into taking a bad beat against a backdoor straight.

By the way, what card did he have besides the 10? I'm actually kind of interested in why he called your bet after the flop. Did he have 10s, Xs, or did he have a 10 and hit a small pair to go along with it?

I've made so many donk calls that it's really difficult for me to pick one to tell you about, but yes, I know the feeling.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

And he had?

10Jo. The ten should be obvious, or at least it was to me. I really shouldn't have called when he can't have played the hand that way with anything but a 10 in his hand. Maybe he could have made that move with another straight draw that got there, but I doubt it because in his mind I'm only calling with hands that beat him.

I guess the fact that he held a J helped him a lot. He didn't get there with a backdoor, he got there with a gutshot.

I also noticed a possible leak in my game tonight, although it didn't affect me me too many times tonight. But in hindsight I tend to play the turn weakly. I get great reads pre flop and on the flop but bring me to the turn, and I don't know what to think about my opponent and the river I'm right in between the two. I'm usually ok at figuring if I'm beat or not and what my bets should be to try to steal or get value. That turn tricks me in live play, though.

I pretty much had control of the table that game, a few players busted, one cashed out and a couple better players bought in. I was thinking about leaving, but I had a deep stacked tight player to my right, and I was getting decent reads on the guy who was the villain in this hand but I feel like Negranuea this hand - I knew just what he had and still made the call. Except my bankroll is no where near as safe as his so it hurts me a lot more to make these bad calls. Every time the guy to my right made a move I shut him down - I was guessing he didn't want to get involved with the other deepstack who had position on him. I was raking in so many pots based off of obvious tells to the players to my right it was ridiculous. I did have one that failed horribly in theory, but I ended up hitting a 4 outer for the win. Every other hand I played was spot on, I picked up when people were making moves, got outta the way when I was probably beat and made many successful moves myself.

Game plan next time - no more donk calls when I'm so certain of the villain's hand. I never get tilted (not even this time) but I do get kinda upset at myself for making such bad calls. Marginally wrong ones are OK with me, as long it makes people scared to tango. I guess at very least, I can use this to my table image advantage, but I'm not so sure how yet. Clearly, most of those people see me as someone who doesn't want to get pushed around based off of my aggression. I just need to make sure I keep my game ON...

I hadn't thought of pushing the flop in a situation like this. There was only about 27 dollars in the pot, so that's a huge over bet. I guess it pushes him off of most of his hands, and anything he'd have can draw would have to be a bad beat. I was thinking about extracting value, but I should have just gotten away from the hand after it was obvious the tides had turned. When the river got so many hands there I should have just folded. Had it been a full house, I woulda had a huge pot, and if not I would have only lost a marginal amount compared to what I really did had I played it right....

Congratulations!
That is, if the world ends, you'll have $400 less to regret not having wasted.

If you're looking for hand review:

Quote:

I had raised the last 4 hands preflop and I look down at 9H9D. Naturally I raise out of the BB to 12 dollars, which was my standard if there were any limpers.

Do you have a standard about always raising if there are limpers or always raising decent hands if there are limpers?

Quote:

I was expecting his call with any 2 cards b/c of how I was playing.

Why that expectation? The standard strategy, when you have a LAG at the table, is to get to the basics - pick strong short-odds hands, run them for value and raise/shove when it's good. LP play is never a correct strategy.

Quote:

Flop comes 4S 9C 7S
I bet out my standard continuation bet, 18 dollars. I get called.

This is a second call. If he has nothing, why call? Raising would make sense with a small made hand. Calling means a trap or a draw.
With a set you're not worried about a trap, though. Any set would be a shove hand against a LAG and you have the top set.

The action here is to immediately identify possible draws, and on the next street, if they missed, bet hard. If you suspect that they hit, consider checking to see what happens.

Quote:

Turn 8H
I bet 27, villain calls

What type of bet was 27? It's not a c-bet, because it's the turn. It's as cheap as the previous one, setting just a low enough price for draws if any are left.

8H is a hit on possible straight draws. If he has something, it either hit already or is a very strong draw. 4789 is a clear straight right there. 56, 6T, TJ. 56 is a bit low and 6T would've been a gutshot on the flop, but both are very possible. TJ is just the kind of hand to be played against you. There are also a few strong draws; Tx - QT, pair+draw like T8, T7.
At this point you have to break off the usual routine, because it obviously isn't a case to just keep feeding money into the pot.

I feel like your turn bet is a bit small. I would generally keep firing > 1/2 pot if you think youre ahead, and you should obv be ahead on the turn. So I would be betting $35+. Unfortunately since you bet smaller on the turn, I feel like you can bet/fold this vs. non-tricky opponents. Or check/call a smaller bet, and check/fold a larger/all in bet. Bet/call is probably the worst choice without a spewy river read. It's generally a pretty tough spot though.

P90, I meant standard as compared to how much I had raised in the previous hands with limpers. I was basically betting the same way preflop the whole game whenever I bet, regardless of the cards (although I had different reasons for betting.) The bets I used were 7,12 and 16 when I was opening. I didn't want to change to using different bet sizes to avoid anybody suspecting anything different happening on any given hand. Of course, if I was raised, then there were many options of what I would do depending on things...

I agree that my turn bet was weak, and I realize that I tend to play the turn very weakly. I knew I was playing it wrong right when I called. Such a bad play by me...

It sucks that I played so well all night (with one exception earlier, where I misread my opponent, made a move and was pot committed to call his all in. I ended up sucking out, though.) I then through it all away on a play that wasn't even marginal, like I said, I had almost no equity here.

Quote: tringlomane

I feel like your turn bet is a bit small. I would generally keep firing > 1/2 pot if you think youre ahead, and you should obv be ahead on the turn. So I would be betting $35+. Unfortunately since you bet smaller on the turn, I feel like you can bet/fold this vs. non-tricky opponents. Or check/call a smaller bet, and check/fold a larger/all in bet. Bet/call is probably the worst choice without a spewy river read. It's generally a pretty tough spot though.

Yeah I've got to work on my play on the turn in general.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Flop: 4s9c7s, turn 8h.., opponent J/10 off. He turned the nuts, he wasn't going anywhere.

Yeah but I still like the bigger bet on the turn, because he's only going to have 10/J sometimes in that spot. I guess he may not be folding a lot of his draws, but at least I'd be sure where I stand for sure - either he's ahead or he's going to fold there.

I knew anyway, but didn't act on the information correctly. Betting so small basically provided me with no extra information. The 6 on the river along with his all in to my raise provided that info, but at a higher price.

Quote: Boney526

Yeah but I still like the bigger bet on the turn, because he's only going to have 10/J sometimes in that spot. I guess he may not be folding a lot of his draws, but at least I'd be sure where I stand for sure - either he's ahead or he's going to fold there.

I knew anyway, but didn't act on the information correctly. Betting so small basically provided me with no extra information. The 6 on the river along with his all in to my raise provided that info, but at a higher price.

Yeah, my fault, for not noticing the nuts came on the turn, but if you stacked off on the turn, I wouldn't really fault you for that either. Given the betting and the river though...blah...it's a fold vs. a lot of opponents.

Betting smaller might give you a little more info, but it's at the cost of giving fish better odds to draw out against you. In a 100 big blind scenario, if you can get most of your money in before the river with a set, you're playing it right.

On the flop you faced pressure from a flush draw, and on the turn you faced pressure from a straight draw or someone who already had the straight.
Your options were to push on the flop or slow bet and wait to see what the turn card was. The turn could have been another spade.

It's similar to players who slow play aces and kings. By not making a very big bet pre flop, or in your case pre turn, you open yourself to more losing combinations.

sometimes you just get unlucky.

I don't think you donked off the chips. You were in a difficult situation. In a cash game you might want to preserve your stack and not even give players on a draw a chance to beat you. In a tournament you bet hard and fast to make those on a draw think twice.

thanks for sharing this with all of us.........

What was the rake? Playing 6 handed is a great game, for the house !

Quote: Boney526

P90, I meant standard as compared to how much I had raised in the previous hands with limpers.

I see. Mostly my point was that it's the turn that lit a big red light in my head, not the river. On the river it was worse, but that part is impossible to analyze because it wasn't arrived at through a practical plan. Really more a case of falling mentally asleep at the table than a mistake per se.

Quote: Boney526

It sucks that I played so well all night (with one exception earlier, where I misread my opponent, made a move and was pot committed to call his all in. I ended up sucking out, though.)

Or just with good results? Not every mistake will cost you.
It seems like you are putting a little too much value on reads.
Strategy comes first. When strategy hinges on a question, then you use reads to answer it. Unless you're one of a small handful of people who can see straight through the opponent.

I can shove kings disappointed that there wasn't a raise before. Excited that I finally got a playable hand. Frustrated that I never get good hands in the right position for them. Relieved that it will be over soon. Worried that the stacks are getting a bit deep for shoving. Bored because it's my 51,337th pair of kings.

Suppose my emotion was perfectly obvious; so what would you think in each case, how would it affect your response?

Boney, you seem like a smart player...I think the only thing you did wrong was letting him hang around to draw to his straight. I would have made him pay big to see 4th street after you flopped your trip 9's. Yes you make less on the hand this way...but he has no chance to draw a hand that beats you. Of course easy for me to say after the fact. It was definitely a bad beat. As Mission said it can be very hard to lay down trips even, when you know you are beat with a straight or a flush.
Good luck going forward, thanks for the story. We've all been there my man.

Quote: P90

Or just with good results? Not every mistake will cost you.
It seems like you are putting a little too much value on reads.
Strategy comes first. When strategy hinges on a question, then you use reads to answer it. Unless you're one of a small handful of people who can see straight through the opponent.

I can shove kings disappointed that there wasn't a raise before. Excited that I finally got a playable hand. Frustrated that I never get good hands in the right position for them. Relieved that it will be over soon. Worried that the stacks are getting a bit deep for shoving. Bored because it's my 51,337th pair of kings.

Suppose my emotion was perfectly obvious; so what would you think in each case, how would it affect your response?

I can find a couple more tiny mistakes, but I meant no other major goof ups. Obviously I wasn't 100% perfect, but I was just in the zone. I had good reads all night, at least their folds when I made a move said so (even when that move was a re-raise haha)

Quote: Buzzard

What was the rake? Playing 6 handed is a great game, for the house !

10% up to $5 and 1 dollar for BBJ and 1 dollar for other bonuses. I realize that's huge, but this game is often ridiculously soft.

But yeah, being six handed, I was about to leave - and b/c there weren't any soft players left. One, maybe, but he was only soft b/c he almost only played in position and only quality hands, so he was really predictable. He almost always folded to pressure except when holding the goods.

Point is, I really should have left before this happened. I was pretty deepstacked, tired, the game was shorthanded, etc.

Of course it's really easy to say I should have left after you lose a huge chunk, but I was hoping to stack the player to my right.... so I stuck around. Ended up getting stacked myself.

10% up to $5 and 1 dollar for BBJ and 1 dollar for other bonuses. I realize that's huge, but this game is often ridiculously soft.

Point is, I really should have left before this happened. I was pretty deepstacked, TIRED, the game was shorthanded, etc.

6 handed, TIRED, $7 rake on $50, TIRED, only one real fish in the game, TIRED, 1+2 blind=50 cent fee per hand, TIRED, and your original question was about how you played the hand ! ! ! ! !

Sorta like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Yeah I realize that... the other 2 fish had been felted a few minutes before, and I was about to leave. Not really sure why I didn't except that I was running over the table, but it was really a mistake to keep playing with one fish left.

At least they may be legalizing online in NJ very soon so that'll be nice if they do, and much lower raked games will be available.

Quote: vendman1

I would have made him pay big to see 4th street after you flopped your trip 9's. Yes you make less on the hand this way...but he has no chance to draw a hand that beats you.

18 was about 3/4 of the pot. Isn't that adequate to make sure they pay too much to draw?

Quote: JimRockford

18 was about 3/4 of the pot. Isn't that adequate to make sure they pay too much to draw?

It apparently wasn't in this case, but then I also think that was a bad call after the Flop. Smooth calling after 4th Street was brilliant, however, with the guy sitting back saying, "He wants to throw money at my straight, let him throw money at my straight!"

As stated, I would have immediately went all-in after the flop, IMMEDIATELY, if this guy thinks that I am just playing recklessly, then that's the image I want to sell. I would say that I would go all-in in that situation in most cases, anyway, and I would also say that my minimum bet would be 2x Pot in any case, but all-in unless at least 8x the new pot remained in my stack after betting 2x pot. Definitely all-in after the flop in this case, though.

Quote: JimRockford

18 was about 3/4 of the pot. Isn't that adequate to make sure they pay too much to draw?

No; it's freakin $18. I know it's only a 1/2 game but $18 bucks isin't a lot of money. The % of the pot in this particular case is probably not that important. I'd say 40 or 50 bucks would probably chase drawers away. However, an all in as Mission 146 suggested would I'm sure get the job done. The only downside to an all in that I can see, is you risk that play looking like a steal attempt obviously.

Let's be clear though hindsight is 20/20. It's real easy to see the correct play after the fact. Not so easy in the moment, and as the OP stated, it was getting late and he was tired. So did he play it wrong in retrospect...yeah of course. But at the time it seemed like the right play. Hard to fault him too much.

Quote: vendman1

No; it's freakin $18. I know it's only a 1/2 game but $18 bucks isin't a lot of money. The % of the pot in this particular case is probably not that important. I'd say 40 or 50 bucks would probably chase drawers away. However, an all in as Mission 146 suggested would I'm sure get the job done. The only downside to an all in that I can see, is you risk that play looking like a steal attempt obviously.

Let's be clear though hindsight is 20/20. It's real easy to see the correct play after the fact. Not so easy in the moment, and as the OP stated, it was getting late and he was tired. So did he play it wrong in retrospect...yeah of course. But at the time it seemed like the right play. Hard to fault him too much.

It may not chase drawers away, but does it assure that the drawers call is mathematically incorrect? In other words he is not getting the pot odds to justify the call. If he calls is it a mistake as Mission says above?

Quote: JimRockford

It may not chase drawers away, but does it assure that the drawers call is mathematically incorrect? In other words he is not getting the pot odds to justify the call. If he calls is it a mistake as Mission says above?

Yes, it's a mistake for him to call the $18 bet. Ideally to make the most money, we want to make the biggest wager he will still call with this hand.

Quote: JimRockford

It may not chase drawers away, but does it assure that the drawers call is mathematically incorrect? In other words he is not getting the pot odds to justify the call. If he calls is it a mistake as Mission says above?

It's definitely a mistake. If I read the OP right, the OP'er and the button are both on the hook for $12.00, so that's gone if you fold. There was $25.00 in the pot when the OP'er threw out another $18.00 making it $43.00. If the button calls, then there is a total of $61.00 in the pot and he is on the hook for $30.00 of that.

The Expected Value of folding is -$12.00, so you need to have an expected value of better than -$12.00 to make the call.

As with any live action, the Expected Value is a subjective determination based largely upon your expectation of winning the hand given what you think your opponent has. In this case, we knew the OP had 9-9 which gave the button a 18.08% chance of winning post flop pursuant to:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tools/odds-calculator/texas-holdem

(.1808 * $61) - $30 = -$18.97

Thus, it would be better to fold.

HOWEVER

The mistake the OP made in underbetting is that the button isn't going to be playing him for wired-9's, he said so himself when he said he'd been playing super-aggressive, so let's say that the button put him on a pair of Nines and an Overcard in Spades (we'll make it an Ace) just for the sake of argument.

From the same source, 10o-Jo is now 36.16% to win against As-9h post flop, so:

(.3616 * $61) - $30 = -$7.94

Conclusion

The button made the wrong call based on what the OP actually had, but he probably made the right call based upon what he thought the OP had. Basically, if he was playing the OP for any hand worse than two pair, post-flop, he made the right call pursuant to what his Pot Odds were.

AGAIN

If the OP pushes him all-in for $236, then the pot total would be $261 (prior to the call) and the call would make it $497.

Based even on that As-9h, you then have:

(.3616 * $497) - $248 = -$68.28

The pot odds emphatically say to fold!

If you bet 2x the current pot of $25, then you have a new total of $75 in the pot and the call would make it $125 with the button on the line for $62.

(.3616 * $125) -$62 = -$16.80

And the pot odds still say to fold, just a little less emphatically.

Anyway, I'll recant my statement that it was a bad call. It was probably a good call based on what he thought the OP had.

I suppose I should also mention that the Pot Odds are such that the OP should bet as much as possible, (i.e. All-In) obviously that may not be the best path to maximum return, (if the OP anticipates that his opponent would fold) but the pot odds are always such that you should bet as much as possible if you are over 50% to win the hand, which the OP was, by necessity.

Even if I give the button 6s-5s for an open-ended straight-flush draw, the OP is still 57.88% to win.