Skipping the blinds

In a Texas Holdem cash game, do you think electing to not play your blinds might be a good strategy? Rather you would wait for the button to pass to your left and pay both blinds in a much better position. You do pay the small blind as a penalty, however you at least spend the big blind on a good position.

Eh, the problem is that you also forfeit the button by doing this. So you have to skip 3 hands (BB, SB, BTN) to make this move. At a full table, it may not be a bad idea, but I generally reserve this move for lengthier bathroom breaks.

"Position" is not something that by itself makes you good or bad.
Every position can be played and every position, in good hands, and with the right hand, can be a powerful position.
But different positions have different best hands.

Middle positions favor straight value play, your proverbial "three big blinds per hour" bread and butter. Button and late positions are best for aggressive play with weak but made or short-odds hands. Blinds provide late pre-flop position, keeping you from spending any more, and in a limped pot offer the "blind special" - entry giving your opponents no information about your hand.

Some of the worst sucker punches I've delivered were from the blinds. An AT holder sees T937T as an instant win, not as a threat from worthless 86 in the hands of a tight player, and your bets are seen as representing another ten.

There are more playable hands for late positions, so you'll lose slightly less money there. But it's a fraction of a blind difference, more percentage chance where you pay and drop the blind. It's nowhere near losing 2 big blinds per hour (your loss at 30 hph and 7-8 players), i.e. half of a good player's post-rake gain.

If you make a habit of doing something like that people will notice and not take kindly to it.

Quote: P90

Some of the worst sucker punches I've delivered were from the blinds. An AT holder sees T937T as an instant win, not as a threat from worthless 86 in the hands of a tight player, and your bets are seen as representing another ten.

I'm not sure about the call when the AT leads or raises after the flop. You had to draw to an inside straight.

Nevertheless, if you dodge you blinds consistently, a good floorperson will eventually give you a warning and possibly a penalty. As prevously stated, you may improve your position post-flop, but you lose the advantage of last action pre-flop, as well as having to pay two blinds in a shorter span of hands. If you then try to dodge again, you will get on the "naughty" list.

Quote: P90

"Position" is not something that by itself makes you good or bad.
Every position can be played and every position, in good hands, and with the right hand, can be a powerful position.
But different positions have different best hands.

My poker is limited to the Wizards one card poker game. But even in this simplistic poker game, position itself does have value, provided you know the best strategy for each position.

Yeah, give me the button every time and good luck beating me.

This is also the reason why the computer always needs to begin with the button at one card poker or the IGT Heads Up Machine.

Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, give me the button every time and good luck beating me.

This is also the reason why the computer always needs to begin with the button at one card poker or the IGT Heads Up Machine.

The button is just another position in low-limit. The other players usually are not paying attention. LOL

But it does help to see the # of players before deciding to do with marginal hands, that's for sure.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I'm not sure about the call when the AT leads or raises after the flop. You had to draw to an inside straight.

There's the implied odds - with a sneaky hand from the blinds you can count on those. The odds were there, cheap card, easy from there on. It's not an especially fortunate board, it's something ordinary.
This "blind special" isn't worth the price of the blind, but combined with being last pre-flop it's worth enough that you don't have to avoid playing from the blinds.

Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, give me the button every time and good luck beating me.

With pleasure! Provided that you still pay your blinds.
This comes down to one live BB, one dead SB every hand.

Aw No fair i want any position that does not pay a blind at all every time. DUH !!

Quote: slyther

If you make a habit of doing something like that people will notice and not take kindly to it.

Why would that be? I don't think anybody would really care especially the casino; they still get their money either way.

Quote: paisiello

Why would that be? I don't think anybody would really care especially the casino; they still get their money either way.

Some of the other players may think you're gaining an edge by doing this. If you are gaining an edge, it's marginal at best. Sacrificing 3 hands just to post your hand behind the button is a pretty big thing to give up.

Well you are only actually sacrificing 2 hands and you are sacrificing the button - which only matters if the button decides to play their hand, say maybe around 20% of the time? Also it gives you a chance to make the occasional move to steal back your blinds and the posted blinds.

I would agree though that if there is any advantage (and maybe sacrificing 2 hands cancels out any position advantage in the long run) then it would be marginal at best. But in the long run even a marginal advantgage will pay off.

Pretty sure someone already has or could do some theoretical math that shows there is a disadvantage (it would have to assume a set of strategies). I'm sort of mathematically-inclined, but not that mathematically-inclined.

On my end, I mostly play live, but a quick check in HM2 shows that my post-rake online gain has been positive in all positions except for BB and UTG+1 in full ring. The latter is probably part statistical aberration, part that it's a really lame position, but not as caution-provoking as UTG. The loss in BB and poor yield in SB come from paying the blind, they would be the most profitable positions if you only counted voluntary pot contributions. And no difference is as high as the cost of losing 2 hands+1 dead SB per round.

That's just statistics for you. There are some dedicated online players here who should have bigger DB's than mine and could provide better stats.

I certainly don't think this is advantageous in full ring low stakes live games.

People fold so little your positional advantage is basically boiled down to the fact you can extract more value in position when you do make a hand. I've discussed this a lot on other forums with a lot of people who seem to disagree with me.

My opinion is that with relatively weak hands against multiple opponents post flop who rarely fold your position has a relatively low value. There are definitely situations where this could be advantageous, but I don't think its in live low stakes games.

The point being that I believe the most important thing in these games is to make a hand and seeing more hands gives you a better opportunity to do that.

Quote: paisiello

Why would that be? I don't think anybody would really care especially the casino; they still get their money either way.

It means the blinds hit everyone else more often, meaning more variance and more money for the rake.

Quote: 24Bingo

It means the blinds hit everyone else more often, meaning more variance and more money for the rake.

The blinds are intended to cause more action, as there is money in the pot. If you choose not to play blind hands or skip them, Fine. But you will post the big and small blind anyway. If you don't want any cards, that request can be honored. LOL

And if you leave the table just before your blinds, you will find a missed blind button there when you get back !

That's right, you'll still post the same amount - in a hand where blinds have already been collected. Meanwhile, the real blinds are making their merry way around the table, so you've got the other players putting in more per hand, which means more gambling to get it back, which means more variance as well.

Bingo, you forgot one word. AMEN !