Wizard
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March 21st, 2012 at 8:34:58 AM permalink
This is a keno variant I noticed yesterday on a Game King machine. Here are the rules.

1. Player picks 2 to 10 numbers out of 80.
2. Game picks three numbers from the 70 to 78 unchosen numbers and marks them with eggs.
3. Game picks 20 numbers out of 80.
3. If 2 eggs are hit, player win is multiplied by 4.
4. If 3 eggs are hit, player win is multiplied by 8.
5. In addition, if 2 or 3 eggs are hit, the game draws 3 extra balls.
6. Player is paid according to the base pay table below.



Pick 2 Pick 3 Pick 4 Pick 5 Pick 6 Pick 7 Pick 8 Pick 9 Pick 10
Catch 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Catch 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Catch 2 3 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
Catch 3 0 20 4 2 1 1 1 0 0
Catch 4 0 0 50 5 5 3 2 2 1
Catch 5 0 0 0 88 55 10 4 4 2
Catch 6 0 0 0 0 500 110 20 15 10
Catch 7 0 0 0 0 0 1000 200 120 60
Catch 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 2000 500 250
Catch 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2000 1000
Catch 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2000


What is unclear to me is what happens if the get hits two eggs on the initial 20 ball draw, and then hits the third egg with the three extra balls. Does the player with 4X or 8X. Here is what the rules say:

Quote: rules


If two eggs are hit, all wins pay 4X. If three eggs are hit, all wins pay 8X! Two or more hit eggs on a winning card awards three extra balls!



I tend to think that the game would still pay 4X. Based on that assumption for the pick-10 game I get a return of 93.4114% for the pick-10.

Would anyone up for a math challenge care to confirm or refute that?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
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March 21st, 2012 at 8:58:48 AM permalink
I'm inclined to agree with you, that it will still do a 4X multiplier.

However, considering how rarely that will happen, maybe they'll be generous?

Frankly, if you're planning on creating a WoO page for this, I think you should calculate the edge both ways, as well as state the odds of it actually happening.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
s2dbaker
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March 21st, 2012 at 10:08:41 AM permalink
I won $70 on a Caveman Keno game at Dotty's. If you want to find out about that multiplier issue, just play it. Heck, I was just killing some time.
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CrystalMath
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March 21st, 2012 at 10:28:07 AM permalink
I'm always up for a math challenge.

I calculated the return both ways. Turns out that both are feasible. Looks a bit odd to me, though, because I would not expect to see a 97.3% keno, much less a 99.0% keno if you look at the 9 spot game. But, I would expect the help screen to clearly indicate which draws count toward the multiplier, so without a disclaimer on the help screens, I tend to think that the second game is how the game works.

Player is awarded multipliers based only on the first 20 draws.
Spots Marked Return
2 0.887757812
3 0.929734822
4 0.912414647
5 0.924574006
6 0.916688735
7 0.929466186
8 0.937256048
9 0.972962771
10 0.934113907


Player is awarded multipliers based on any eggs hit, with either with the first 20 draws or the 3 extra draws.
Spots Marked Return
2 0.903975771
3 0.9466015
4 0.928930666
5 0.941349123
6 0.933075619
7 0.946124812
8 0.954121691
9 0.990311769
10 0.950684901
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CrystalMath
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March 21st, 2012 at 10:40:47 AM permalink
Quote: Rules


If two eggs are hit, all wins pay 4X. If three eggs are hit, all wins pay 8X! Two or more hit eggs on a winning card awards three extra balls!



Based on these rules, I have changed my oppinion. The rules state that only a "winning card" will get three extra balls. So, you would not get additional balls if you hit only two eggs but none of your marked spots. Based on this, I have come up with new returns, and I think it is the second one since the rules don't specify whether or not the 3 extra draws can increase your multiplier. These returns look much more normal for an IGT keno game, plus they are more consistent across the marked spots.


Player is awarded multipliers based only on the first 20 draws.
Spots Marked Return
2 0.847924228
3 0.863133828
4 0.863656371
5 0.866315366
6 0.866445463
7 0.867018706
8 0.864888873
9 0.866761486
10 0.864497242


Player is awarded multipliers based on any eggs hit, with either with the first 20 draws or the 3 extra draws.
Spots Marked Return
2 0.863032537
3 0.878263762
4 0.878877291
5 0.881489195
6 0.881579823
7 0.882045464
8 0.879805963
9 0.881317345
10 0.879256766
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marksolberg
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March 21st, 2012 at 10:41:18 AM permalink
The game is paid on the final count of number and eggs hit, so I would say it would be 8x even if the third egg is hit during the three extra numbers.

Mark
marksolberg
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March 21st, 2012 at 10:48:14 AM permalink
Challenge winner is CrystalMath using his final table.

Mark
Wizard
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March 21st, 2012 at 11:03:21 AM permalink
Thanks CM for the outstanding and rapid results! Indeed, I was awarding the extra balls for hitting 2 or more eggs always. I'll have to go back and fix that.

Quote: marksolberg

The game is paid on the final count of number and eggs hit, so I would say it would be 8x even if the third egg is hit during the three extra numbers.



Not to say you're wrong, but how do you know?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
marksolberg
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March 21st, 2012 at 11:08:37 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Not to say you're wrong, but how do you know?



I looked at the par sheet.

Mark
Wizard
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March 21st, 2012 at 11:10:42 AM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

I looked at the par sheet.



Good answer.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
thlf
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March 21st, 2012 at 12:24:00 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks CM for the outstanding and rapid results! Indeed, I was awarding the extra balls for hitting 2 or more eggs always. I'll have to go back and fix that.



Not to say you're wrong, but how do you know?



This is accurate from my experience at playing it. The difference between this and regular caveman is the extra balls, and regular caveman pays 10x typically for 3 eggs. Therefore the payout percentage is close to the same.
CrystalMath
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March 21st, 2012 at 12:29:20 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks CM for the outstanding and rapid results!



You are very welcome.
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Wizard
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March 21st, 2012 at 12:32:40 PM permalink
I now agree with CM's final table.

Thank you very much to CM and marksolberg for your help. I would like to thank each of you for your help with a nice lunch or dinner your next Vegas visit. I have a bad memory, so you may wish to remind me about this offer if it takes a while to get here.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
JohnnyQ
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March 21st, 2012 at 3:04:02 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

I looked at the par sheet.

Mark



I can sortof infer what a par sheet is,
but what exactly is a par sheet ?

thx
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Wizard
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March 21st, 2012 at 3:49:26 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

what exactly is a par sheet ?



It is a document that shows the rules and the pertinent math of any video-based game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
JohnnyQ
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March 21st, 2012 at 6:15:32 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

It is a document that shows the rules and the pertinent math of any video-based game.



So is that an industry thing, where only the people
who buy the machine usually see it ?

thanks
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
CrystalMath
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March 21st, 2012 at 6:33:49 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

So is that an industry thing, where only the people
who buy the machine usually see it ?

thanks



Yes. Only employees, regulators, and customers.
I heart Crystal Math.
Nareed
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March 21st, 2012 at 6:59:46 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Yes. Only employees, regulators, and customers.



Consultants? Or do they count as employees?
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CrystalMath
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March 21st, 2012 at 7:35:52 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Consultants? Or do they count as employees?


I would have lumped them together. Essentially, you have to have a business purpose. I used to have an account with IGT to see par sheets when I worked at GLI.
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Wizard
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March 21st, 2012 at 10:21:16 PM permalink
Please preview my new page on Caveman Keno Plus. CM and MS, please note the attribution at the end. If you prefer a different name, let me know.

Thanks again.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
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March 22nd, 2012 at 5:10:13 AM permalink
Quote: Rules

5. If the exactly two eggs hatch ...
6. If at least two eggs match ...

Rule 5, Remove "the".
Rule 6, "match" should be "hatch".

Quote: Acknowledgements

The Wizard would like to thank CrystalMath and marksolberg ...

Whether they ask you to use their real names or not, you should say
"The Wizard would like to thank Wizard of Vegas forum members [names]..."
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
CrystalMath
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March 22nd, 2012 at 6:50:32 AM permalink
In step 5, you should include that the player must have a winning card and two or more hatched eggs in order to get the 3 extra draws.
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Wizard
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March 22nd, 2012 at 6:52:14 AM permalink
Thanks for the above corrections.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
CrystalMath
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March 22nd, 2012 at 7:48:13 AM permalink
I re-read it, and I was thinking about step 6 - to make it clear that you only get extra balls if you already have a winning card.
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marksolberg
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March 22nd, 2012 at 7:52:53 AM permalink
For the record I would not normally reveal anything from a par sheet. But in this case it was only to clear up a game play question that should have been clear from the game itself and isn't and to confirm math that is calculable from the information provided by the game.

Mark
konceptum
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March 22nd, 2012 at 10:34:58 AM permalink
Quote:

These eggs identified as hatching.


These eggs are identified as hatching. (?)
Quote:

possibly resulting a larger base prize


possibly resulting in a larger base prize
WongBo
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March 22nd, 2012 at 10:48:42 AM permalink
i thought you said you would PM your corrections in the future? :)
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konceptum
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March 22nd, 2012 at 10:53:40 AM permalink
I admit to being confused on what to do. After debating much with myself about it, I finally determined that since the corrections were specifically asked for, and asked for in this thread, then it was ok to respond with possible corrections. Unsolicited corrections should be PMd, rather than making an entire new thread for it.
DJTeddyBear
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March 22nd, 2012 at 11:00:26 AM permalink
I think konceptum has the right idea.

This is a new page, and the Wiz DID ask for comments. Posting errors is actually preferred for new page announcements, to avoid being alerted to the same error multiple times.

It's only when stumbling on errors in older pages that they should be PM'd.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizard
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March 22nd, 2012 at 11:06:03 AM permalink
Yes, I asked for corrections, and it is fine to make them here about that page.

Earlier today konceptum made a separate thread to make a correction about another page. Rather than clutter up the site with another thread, I think a PM would be more appropriate in that case.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
konceptum
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March 22nd, 2012 at 11:08:15 AM permalink
I regret my use of the word "unsolicited", because now I feel like it sounds as though the Wizard is not interested in hearing about any mistakes that he may have made. I don't feel this is true about him. I'm sure he would like to know about mistakes so that they can be corrected, but I stand by my other reasoning that there isn't a reason to create an entire thread just to point out one minor mistake.
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