Caveman Keno Plus
March 21st, 2012 at 8:34:58 AM
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This is a keno variant I noticed yesterday on a Game King machine. Here are the rules.
1. Player picks 2 to 10 numbers out of 80.
2. Game picks three numbers from the 70 to 78 unchosen numbers and marks them with eggs.
3. Game picks 20 numbers out of 80.
3. If 2 eggs are hit, player win is multiplied by 4.
4. If 3 eggs are hit, player win is multiplied by 8.
5. In addition, if 2 or 3 eggs are hit, the game draws 3 extra balls.
6. Player is paid according to the base pay table below.
What is unclear to me is what happens if the get hits two eggs on the initial 20 ball draw, and then hits the third egg with the three extra balls. Does the player with 4X or 8X. Here is what the rules say:
I tend to think that the game would still pay 4X. Based on that assumption for the pick-10 game I get a return of 93.4114% for the pick-10.
Would anyone up for a math challenge care to confirm or refute that?
1. Player picks 2 to 10 numbers out of 80.
2. Game picks three numbers from the 70 to 78 unchosen numbers and marks them with eggs.
3. Game picks 20 numbers out of 80.
3. If 2 eggs are hit, player win is multiplied by 4.
4. If 3 eggs are hit, player win is multiplied by 8.
5. In addition, if 2 or 3 eggs are hit, the game draws 3 extra balls.
6. Player is paid according to the base pay table below.
| Pick 2 | Pick 3 | Pick 4 | Pick 5 | Pick 6 | Pick 7 | Pick 8 | Pick 9 | Pick 10 | |
| Catch 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Catch 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Catch 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Catch 3 | 0 | 20 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| Catch 4 | 0 | 0 | 50 | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 |
| Catch 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 88 | 55 | 10 | 4 | 4 | 2 |
| Catch 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 500 | 110 | 20 | 15 | 10 |
| Catch 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1000 | 200 | 120 | 60 |
| Catch 8 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2000 | 500 | 250 |
| Catch 9 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2000 | 1000 |
| Catch 10 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2000 |
What is unclear to me is what happens if the get hits two eggs on the initial 20 ball draw, and then hits the third egg with the three extra balls. Does the player with 4X or 8X. Here is what the rules say:
Quote: rules
If two eggs are hit, all wins pay 4X. If three eggs are hit, all wins pay 8X! Two or more hit eggs on a winning card awards three extra balls!
I tend to think that the game would still pay 4X. Based on that assumption for the pick-10 game I get a return of 93.4114% for the pick-10.
Would anyone up for a math challenge care to confirm or refute that?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 21st, 2012 at 8:58:48 AM
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I'm inclined to agree with you, that it will still do a 4X multiplier.
However, considering how rarely that will happen, maybe they'll be generous?
Frankly, if you're planning on creating a WoO page for this, I think you should calculate the edge both ways, as well as state the odds of it actually happening.
However, considering how rarely that will happen, maybe they'll be generous?
Frankly, if you're planning on creating a WoO page for this, I think you should calculate the edge both ways, as well as state the odds of it actually happening.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 21st, 2012 at 10:08:41 AM
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I won $70 on a Caveman Keno game at Dotty's. If you want to find out about that multiplier issue, just play it. Heck, I was just killing some time.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
March 21st, 2012 at 10:28:07 AM
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I'm always up for a math challenge.
I calculated the return both ways. Turns out that both are feasible. Looks a bit odd to me, though, because I would not expect to see a 97.3% keno, much less a 99.0% keno if you look at the 9 spot game. But, I would expect the help screen to clearly indicate which draws count toward the multiplier, so without a disclaimer on the help screens, I tend to think that the second game is how the game works.
I calculated the return both ways. Turns out that both are feasible. Looks a bit odd to me, though, because I would not expect to see a 97.3% keno, much less a 99.0% keno if you look at the 9 spot game. But, I would expect the help screen to clearly indicate which draws count toward the multiplier, so without a disclaimer on the help screens, I tend to think that the second game is how the game works.
| Spots Marked | Return |
|---|---|
| 2 | 0.887757812 |
| 3 | 0.929734822 |
| 4 | 0.912414647 |
| 5 | 0.924574006 |
| 6 | 0.916688735 |
| 7 | 0.929466186 |
| 8 | 0.937256048 |
| 9 | 0.972962771 |
| 10 | 0.934113907 |
| Spots Marked | Return |
|---|---|
| 2 | 0.903975771 |
| 3 | 0.9466015 |
| 4 | 0.928930666 |
| 5 | 0.941349123 |
| 6 | 0.933075619 |
| 7 | 0.946124812 |
| 8 | 0.954121691 |
| 9 | 0.990311769 |
| 10 | 0.950684901 |
I heart Crystal Math.
March 21st, 2012 at 10:40:47 AM
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Quote: Rules
If two eggs are hit, all wins pay 4X. If three eggs are hit, all wins pay 8X! Two or more hit eggs on a winning card awards three extra balls!
Based on these rules, I have changed my oppinion. The rules state that only a "winning card" will get three extra balls. So, you would not get additional balls if you hit only two eggs but none of your marked spots. Based on this, I have come up with new returns, and I think it is the second one since the rules don't specify whether or not the 3 extra draws can increase your multiplier. These returns look much more normal for an IGT keno game, plus they are more consistent across the marked spots.
| Spots Marked | Return |
|---|---|
| 2 | 0.847924228 |
| 3 | 0.863133828 |
| 4 | 0.863656371 |
| 5 | 0.866315366 |
| 6 | 0.866445463 |
| 7 | 0.867018706 |
| 8 | 0.864888873 |
| 9 | 0.866761486 |
| 10 | 0.864497242 |
| Spots Marked | Return |
|---|---|
| 2 | 0.863032537 |
| 3 | 0.878263762 |
| 4 | 0.878877291 |
| 5 | 0.881489195 |
| 6 | 0.881579823 |
| 7 | 0.882045464 |
| 8 | 0.879805963 |
| 9 | 0.881317345 |
| 10 | 0.879256766 |
I heart Crystal Math.
March 21st, 2012 at 10:41:18 AM
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The game is paid on the final count of number and eggs hit, so I would say it would be 8x even if the third egg is hit during the three extra numbers.
Mark
Mark
March 21st, 2012 at 10:48:14 AM
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Challenge winner is CrystalMath using his final table.
Mark
Mark
March 21st, 2012 at 11:03:21 AM
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Thanks CM for the outstanding and rapid results! Indeed, I was awarding the extra balls for hitting 2 or more eggs always. I'll have to go back and fix that.
Not to say you're wrong, but how do you know?
Quote: marksolbergThe game is paid on the final count of number and eggs hit, so I would say it would be 8x even if the third egg is hit during the three extra numbers.
Not to say you're wrong, but how do you know?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 21st, 2012 at 11:08:37 AM
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Quote: WizardNot to say you're wrong, but how do you know?
I looked at the par sheet.
Mark
March 21st, 2012 at 11:10:42 AM
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Quote: marksolbergI looked at the par sheet.
Good answer.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 21st, 2012 at 12:24:00 PM
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Quote: WizardThanks CM for the outstanding and rapid results! Indeed, I was awarding the extra balls for hitting 2 or more eggs always. I'll have to go back and fix that.
Not to say you're wrong, but how do you know?
This is accurate from my experience at playing it. The difference between this and regular caveman is the extra balls, and regular caveman pays 10x typically for 3 eggs. Therefore the payout percentage is close to the same.
March 21st, 2012 at 12:29:20 PM
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Quote: WizardThanks CM for the outstanding and rapid results!
You are very welcome.
I heart Crystal Math.
March 21st, 2012 at 12:32:40 PM
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I now agree with CM's final table.
Thank you very much to CM and marksolberg for your help. I would like to thank each of you for your help with a nice lunch or dinner your next Vegas visit. I have a bad memory, so you may wish to remind me about this offer if it takes a while to get here.
Thank you very much to CM and marksolberg for your help. I would like to thank each of you for your help with a nice lunch or dinner your next Vegas visit. I have a bad memory, so you may wish to remind me about this offer if it takes a while to get here.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 21st, 2012 at 3:04:02 PM
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Quote: marksolbergI looked at the par sheet.
Mark
I can sortof infer what a par sheet is,
but what exactly is a par sheet ?
thx
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
March 21st, 2012 at 3:49:26 PM
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Quote: JohnnyQwhat exactly is a par sheet ?
It is a document that shows the rules and the pertinent math of any video-based game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 21st, 2012 at 6:15:32 PM
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Quote: WizardIt is a document that shows the rules and the pertinent math of any video-based game.
So is that an industry thing, where only the people
who buy the machine usually see it ?
thanks
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
March 21st, 2012 at 6:33:49 PM
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Quote: JohnnyQSo is that an industry thing, where only the people
who buy the machine usually see it ?
thanks
Yes. Only employees, regulators, and customers.
I heart Crystal Math.
March 21st, 2012 at 6:59:46 PM
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Quote: CrystalMathYes. Only employees, regulators, and customers.
Consultants? Or do they count as employees?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 21st, 2012 at 7:35:52 PM
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Quote: NareedConsultants? Or do they count as employees?
I would have lumped them together. Essentially, you have to have a business purpose. I used to have an account with IGT to see par sheets when I worked at GLI.
I heart Crystal Math.
March 21st, 2012 at 10:21:16 PM
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Please preview my new page on Caveman Keno Plus. CM and MS, please note the attribution at the end. If you prefer a different name, let me know.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 22nd, 2012 at 5:10:13 AM
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Rule 5, Remove "the".Quote: Rules5. If the exactly two eggs hatch ...
6. If at least two eggs match ...
Rule 6, "match" should be "hatch".
Whether they ask you to use their real names or not, you should sayQuote: AcknowledgementsThe Wizard would like to thank CrystalMath and marksolberg ...
"The Wizard would like to thank Wizard of Vegas forum members [names]..."
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 22nd, 2012 at 6:50:32 AM
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In step 5, you should include that the player must have a winning card and two or more hatched eggs in order to get the 3 extra draws.
I heart Crystal Math.
March 22nd, 2012 at 6:52:14 AM
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Thanks for the above corrections.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 22nd, 2012 at 7:48:13 AM
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I re-read it, and I was thinking about step 6 - to make it clear that you only get extra balls if you already have a winning card.
I heart Crystal Math.
March 22nd, 2012 at 7:52:53 AM
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For the record I would not normally reveal anything from a par sheet. But in this case it was only to clear up a game play question that should have been clear from the game itself and isn't and to confirm math that is calculable from the information provided by the game.
Mark
Mark
March 22nd, 2012 at 10:34:58 AM
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Quote:These eggs identified as hatching.
These eggs are identified as hatching. (?)
Quote:possibly resulting a larger base prize
possibly resulting in a larger base prize
March 22nd, 2012 at 10:48:42 AM
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i thought you said you would PM your corrections in the future? :)
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
March 22nd, 2012 at 10:53:40 AM
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I admit to being confused on what to do. After debating much with myself about it, I finally determined that since the corrections were specifically asked for, and asked for in this thread, then it was ok to respond with possible corrections. Unsolicited corrections should be PMd, rather than making an entire new thread for it.
March 22nd, 2012 at 11:00:26 AM
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I think konceptum has the right idea.
This is a new page, and the Wiz DID ask for comments. Posting errors is actually preferred for new page announcements, to avoid being alerted to the same error multiple times.
It's only when stumbling on errors in older pages that they should be PM'd.
This is a new page, and the Wiz DID ask for comments. Posting errors is actually preferred for new page announcements, to avoid being alerted to the same error multiple times.
It's only when stumbling on errors in older pages that they should be PM'd.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 22nd, 2012 at 11:06:03 AM
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Yes, I asked for corrections, and it is fine to make them here about that page.
Earlier today konceptum made a separate thread to make a correction about another page. Rather than clutter up the site with another thread, I think a PM would be more appropriate in that case.
Earlier today konceptum made a separate thread to make a correction about another page. Rather than clutter up the site with another thread, I think a PM would be more appropriate in that case.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 22nd, 2012 at 11:08:15 AM
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I regret my use of the word "unsolicited", because now I feel like it sounds as though the Wizard is not interested in hearing about any mistakes that he may have made. I don't feel this is true about him. I'm sure he would like to know about mistakes so that they can be corrected, but I stand by my other reasoning that there isn't a reason to create an entire thread just to point out one minor mistake.
