winmonkeyspit3
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davidyones
February 15th, 2012 at 12:40:42 PM permalink
Game is called Beat the Dealer. Very simply the dealer rolls two die in a box (Sic Bo style), setting the point. The player then rolls the two die craps style, and if the player's roll beats the dealers roll, all bets are paid even money. Ties go to the dealer. Game has a very high house edge, but has been extremely popular so far. The table is a craps box with a different felt, and every time I have been to this casino the table was been very full. Minimum bet is $1, max is $100.
boymimbo
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February 15th, 2012 at 12:51:37 PM permalink
Well yeah.

11.265% HA. Stupid game.

Quite simply, there are 33 outcomes. A tie happens 11.26% of the time, which is the advantage.

-Tim
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WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 12:52:27 PM permalink
I have been to that casino and seen that game as well.
What a sucker game it is!
It seems like a game for people who are afraid to learn craps,
or just prefer an uncomplicated dice game with simplified payout and zero math.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
boymimbo
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February 15th, 2012 at 12:58:44 PM permalink
Quite simply, you win 44.37% of the time, lose 44.37% of the time, and tie 11.26% of the time.

Take a 7, which is the outcome 16.67% of the time. You have 15 ways each to win and lose, and 6 ways to tie. The tie rate is 16.67%.
For 6 and 8, the tie rate is 13.89%
For 5 and 9, the tie rate is 11.11%
For 4 and 10, the tie rate is 8.33%
For 3 and 11, the tie rate is 5.56%
For 2 and 12, the tie rate is 2.78%

Really, the HA is (6/36)^2 + 2*(5/36)^2 + 2*(4/36)^2 + 2*(3/36)^2 + 2*(2/36)^2 + 2*(1/36)^2.

= (36 + 50 + 32 + 18 + 8 + 2)/1296 = 146/1296 = 11.2654%
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Paigowdan
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:11:10 PM permalink
Quote: winmonkeyspit3

Game is called Beat the Dealer. Very simply the dealer rolls two die in a box (Sic Bo style), setting the point. The player then rolls the two die craps style, and if the player's roll beats the dealers roll, all bets are paid even money. Ties go to the dealer. Game has a very high house edge, but has been extremely popular so far. The table is a craps box with a different felt, and every time I have been to this casino the table was been very full. Minimum bet is $1, max is $100.


In VERY new gaming markets, just about any Chevy Chase type games can get installed and get action.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:13:30 PM permalink
Deleted
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
winmonkeyspit3
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:17:48 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

In VERY new gaming markets, just about any Chevy Chase type games can get installed and get action.



Love the youtube link Paigowdan. Burst out laughing at my work-study job!
boymimbo
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:20:11 PM permalink
My HA is correct.
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Nareed
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:22:24 PM permalink
Aren't there any worse bonus bets on this game?

I realize that bad a house edge would make them redundant, but it's the "big money" bets that keeps the suckers betting.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
winmonkeyspit3
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:23:08 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

My HA is correct.



Yes it is. If the dealer rolls the 12 it is an auto loser, but your edge is correct because even if they player were to get a chance to roll, a 12 would still be a tie, which is a loss.
winmonkeyspit3
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:26:01 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Aren't there any worse bonus bets on this game?

I realize that bad a house edge would make them redundant, but it's the "big money" bets that keeps the suckers betting.



Nope, as of my last visit in December there were no bonus bets. Don't worry, the table is located right next to the Big 6 "Fruit Wheel" and "Money Wheel", Three Card Poker, Texas Holdem Stud Poker, Let em Ride, 4 Card Poker, Carribbean Stud Poker, Red Dog, and Sic Bo, so all of the suckers will have no problem getting their fix.
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:30:06 PM permalink
Deleted.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
boymimbo
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:37:43 PM permalink
Deleted
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winmonkeyspit3
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:38:12 PM permalink
The win loss % should be exactly equal. The house edge is just in the ties. The dealer is just as likely to beat you as you are to beat them, it's just the fact that the dealer is really "beating" you on "ties"
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 1:39:49 PM permalink
Deleted.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
charliepatrick
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February 15th, 2012 at 5:57:44 PM permalink
It's amazing what games people will play. I notice that Casino War is actually beginning to take hold in a few casinos and double-zero roulette (nearly everywhere has single zero roulette) is played. I think the problem is that "students" (by that I mean people aged in the teens rather than intelligent under-graduates) find such games easy and fun.
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 6:10:29 PM permalink
The single zero wheels often are not on the main floor and will usually have higher limits.
The roulette in AC returns half your even money bet on a roll of 0 or 00.
Similar to the "en prison" rule but with out imprisoning the bet.
I do agree that the general public is woefully undereducated (in general)
and specifically regarding probability math.

I have to say that Turning Stone Casino in Verona NY which this thread refers to
Has more than their fair share of carnival games. I think they even have keno.

At least they have a decent payable on the three card poker pair plus bet.
They still have the 40-30-6-4-1 payable with 2.32% HE instead of
The more common 40-30-6-3-1 payable with 7.68% HE.
I am sure this is an oversight given their love for games with a huge edge.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Wizard
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February 15th, 2012 at 6:15:57 PM permalink
Oy! That is the worst even money bet I have heard of. By the way, I agree with the 11.265% house edge. I'll have to make a page for it on my Odds site, as a warning.

Here are the Turning Stone rules of the game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
thecesspit
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February 15th, 2012 at 6:22:51 PM permalink
At least with ties in Casino War there's a second round... this an ugly game.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Triplell
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February 15th, 2012 at 6:30:38 PM permalink
Ugly but simple. I don't really see how they could make it any simpler while reducing the house edge. My only guess would be to count ties as a push and charge a vig....
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 6:35:20 PM permalink
They could simply make it so that all sevens are a tie and the HE would be reduced to 2.78%.
Or they could even say that all 6,7,8 are a tie and still get 6.63%!
They would still make money on it.
The way it is now just stinks of greed.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Wizard
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February 15th, 2012 at 7:01:34 PM permalink
I would have suggested the player loses half on ties or ties under a certain number lose.

Another idea would be that if the totals are the same then you look to the individual dice to break the idea. So a 6+2 would beat 5+3. If that is still a tie then it goes to the dealer.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 7:16:01 PM permalink
I like your idea of introducing a half-loss into the game
I was just trying to determine a rule set that was as easy as the existing one.
If you ran the decision out to dice composition, it would cause a lot of confusion.
How about this, all doubles/hardways are a loss, still only a 2.78% edge and easy to print on the felt.
I think 2.78% is fair and it correlates to the minimum HE at sic bo, which is about fifty feet away from the beat the dealer table.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Ibeatyouraces
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February 15th, 2012 at 7:17:55 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
thecesspit
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February 15th, 2012 at 7:28:39 PM permalink
House wins all 2s and 12s. Push other ties.

That should do it.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
DJTeddyBear
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February 15th, 2012 at 7:30:37 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here are the Turning Stone rules of the game.

... and then click on "Beat the dealer"



Earlier in the day, one of the deleted posts indicated that not only are dealer twelves an automatic win for the house, but the implication was a player twelve was an automatic loser for the player. The post went on to say that a dealer eleven was an automatic house win.

I make mention of that just in case someone else read that, and remembers it as I do. The point is, that's NOT what the casino's website rule indicates. Also, I hope the house edge was calculated based upon the actual rules.

On the other hand, I can see that this is a VERY bad game, and maybe the high edge calculated is correct.


Of course, I have a couple ideas to lower the edge.

1 - If the player beats the dealer, and the player rolls a double, pay the player double.
2 - If the player ties the dealer, and the player rolls a double when the dealer rolled easy, then pay the player single.
3 - If they tie and both roll doubles, it's a push.
4 - If they tie and neither roll doubles, the player loses.

I haven't run numbers to see how much this lowers the edge.
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WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 7:39:03 PM permalink
That was my faulty memory at work.
I was watching a bunch of people play the game from an adjoining craps table.
I deleted my earlier posts because I had made an improper assumption about the rules.
I like your idea of the 2 and 12 being losers, it's sort of a nice way to ease them into craps!
But that would still give them a 5.56% edge.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
MrCasinoGames
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:08:45 PM permalink
How about this one:
Ties doubles: Player win
Ties easy: dealer win

Maybe this one:
Ties on points 2,3,11 or 12: Player win
Other Ties: dealer win
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:28:51 PM permalink
I think there is a certain beauty in the simplicity of the game.
The house advantage is exorbitant, given.
But in trying to improve the game,
it should have lower edge and be simple to explain and understand.
All of these complicated variations would turn off the interest in the game.
Its simplicity is its draw.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Wizard
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:36:00 PM permalink
Here is my new page on Beat the Dealer.

I welcome all comments and corrections.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MathExtremist
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:36:28 PM permalink
If they're spreading it on a craps table, it needs the higher edge to make up for the larger footprint. Doesn't anyone remember when I proposed a 3-dice version of this last year? Play it with Pai Gow cups on a standard blackjack table and it's far faster than a dice pit.

FYI, Beat The Dealer isn't a "new" game at all - it's at least 40 years old and probably much older. See pp. 508-509 of Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paradigm
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:42:40 PM permalink
ME, I had to go back and see if Dice War was a two or three dice game as it immediately came to mind.
MrCasinoGames
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:43:58 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

If they're spreading it on a craps table, it needs the higher edge to make up for the larger footprint. Doesn't anyone remember when I proposed a 3-dice version of this last year? Play it with Pai Gow cups on a standard blackjack table and it's far faster than a dice pit.

FYI, Beat The Dealer isn't a "new" game at all - it's at least 40 years old and probably much older. See pp. 508-509 of Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling.


Yes, you did proposed a 3-dice version of this last year.
You was asking for a good name for the game and was offer if for fee too.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
Paradigm
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:47:24 PM permalink
I think losing 1/2 on any set of circumstances isn't good. Didn't work for me in my game concept. So you need to change it to losing 100% on certain ties and pushing on others.

What if exact matches on both dice lose all other ties push. Does that cut the HE down to 1 in 18 or 5.55%? Need confirmation there from better math talent than me.

If that is too high what if you had same rule, but used two colors of die (i.e. red & green) and both values and color had to match in order to lose a tie. Would that get you down to 1 in 36 or a 2.78% HE?
bigfoot66
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February 15th, 2012 at 9:00:11 PM permalink
Quote: Triplell

Ugly but simple. I don't really see how they could make it any simpler while reducing the house edge. My only guess would be to count ties as a push and charge a vig....



How about ties push but if the banks dice roll a 2 they either push or win?

They should also offer the side bet that Pala does here in CA. If the two rolls are 12 and 2 you win 500 to 1. Big house edge but fun nonetheless
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MathExtremist
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February 15th, 2012 at 9:21:03 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

ME, I had to go back and see if Dice War was a two or three dice game as it immediately came to mind.


I did it with three dice for two reasons: (a) as already mentioned, the 2-dice version has a higher (and, frankly, brutal) house edge, and (b) Pai Gow dice come in sets of three already.

To winmonkeyspit3 (and anyone else who frequents Turning Stone), please let them know that they can speed things up and save floor space by playing the game differently. They can also offer a lower edge and still make more $/hr/sqft.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
winmonkeyspit3
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February 15th, 2012 at 10:09:44 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I did it with three dice for two reasons: (a) as already mentioned, the 2-dice version has a higher (and, frankly, brutal) house edge, and (b) Pai Gow dice come in sets of three already.

To winmonkeyspit3 (and anyone else who frequents Turning Stone), please let them know that they can speed things up and save floor space by playing the game differently. They can also offer a lower edge and still make more $/hr/sqft.




I know some of the floor supervisors pretty well, but nobody high up. I will mention it the next time I am there (probably next month). The game does take up a lot of space, it is right on the edge of the pit with middle limit ($25-$50) blackjack tables and $10 craps tables, so the location does seem pretty silly. That being said, it is right near the entrance to the gaming floor, and the game is usually pretty busy, so I'm guessing it draws a lot of people in, especially when they hear that there is a $1 minimum bet.

To the Wizard, your analysis of the game looks spot on!
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 10:14:15 PM permalink
I still think for a game like this to succeed, it has to be exceedingly simple.
My eyes just glaze over when I read some of the proposals on here.
You need to come up with a game that is easy to learn and play.
Why do you think three card poker is so popular?
This game is hard to improve for simplicity.
It has three rules.

Look at the description from their website:
Beat the Dealer was designed to offer our casual Casino guests the excitement of a craps game without the intimidation.
The Play:
Make a wager. If the total of two dice thrown by a player is greater than the total of the dealer's two dice spin of the cage, you win... even money.
A player roll and dealer spin of the cage that ends in a tie will result in all wagers being collected by the dealer.
In the event of a dealer spin total of twelve, all wagers will be collected immediately and no player roll for that spin.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
winmonkeyspit3
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February 15th, 2012 at 10:19:33 PM permalink
Quote: WongBo

The single zero wheels often are not on the main floor and will usually have higher limits.
The roulette in AC returns half your even money bet on a roll of 0 or 00.
Similar to the "en prison" rule but with out imprisoning the bet.
I do agree that the general public is woefully undereducated (in general)
and specifically regarding probability math.

I have to say that Turning Stone Casino in Verona NY which this thread refers to
Has more than their fair share of carnival games. I think they even have keno.

At least they have a decent payable on the three card poker pair plus bet.
They still have the 40-30-6-4-1 payable with 2.32% HE instead of
The more common 40-30-6-3-1 payable with 7.68% HE.
I am sure this is an oversight given their love for games with a huge edge.




Turning Stone is indeed a very interesting place. They offer good blackjack at limits as low as $5 during the day(3:2, 8 deck, DAS, RE-4times, No RSA, No surrender)(3:2 DD, no DAS same other rules) which both have house edges in the .4x area. At the same time they have 3 Big 6 wheels, countless let it ride tables, casino war, red dog, sic-bo, 6 double zero roulette wheels, all of the stud poker games with numerous tables of each, and lots of high limit 3 card poker. Funny how their blackjack is good but everything else is so atrocious. Comps are weird here too. All table game comps are discretionary, and expire 48 hours after you play. Floor supervisors will dish out free buffets for even $5 players, and steak dinners for higher limit, but you have to be bringing BIG action if you want to get a room from playing tables. I have seen people lose $5000+ on blackjack over the course of a day and not even get a room, yet my mom who brings only a $20 bill (to play video slots) and her $5 freeplay gets a mailer every few months for a free room. They love the slot players, but only tolerate feeding table game players. Very strange. Fun place though with great food, nice rooms and a very relaxed atmosphere.
MathExtremist
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February 15th, 2012 at 10:41:18 PM permalink
Quote: winmonkeyspit3

I know some of the floor supervisors pretty well, but nobody high up. I will mention it the next time I am there (probably next month). The game does take up a lot of space, it is right on the edge of the pit with middle limit ($25-$50) blackjack tables and $10 craps tables, so the location does seem pretty silly. That being said, it is right near the entrance to the gaming floor, and the game is usually pretty busy, so I'm guessing it draws a lot of people in, especially when they hear that there is a $1 minimum bet.


I'm sure it does draw if it's at the front of the pit -- that's the whole point. But I think it can be made far more exciting and also cost-effective. Here's how:

1) Get rid of the dice table and sic bo cage, and use a blackjack table instead. Or two.
2) Get two Pai Gow cups and four dice, two each of two different colors.
3) The dealer and the player each shake the dice shakers and slam them down on the table. This takes much less time than spinning the cage and shooting the dice. It's also very loud -- a great attraction.
4) Reveal the dice cups and evaluate winners.

You'll get many more hands/hour this way than with the dice table. The only reason to use a dice table is to get players used to throwing dice and maybe to move over to craps, which from their website seems to be the goal. But I'm not sure how many people that will actually work on. There's a huge difference between making a $1 carnival bet and a $10 passline bet, if not from an EV standpoint than from a psychological standpoint.

Also, please let them know that if they're paying someone for their "new" game, they shouldn't be -- it's been in the public domain for decades.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
P90
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February 16th, 2012 at 2:42:08 AM permalink
Quote: Triplell

Ugly but simple. I don't really see how they could make it any simpler while reducing the house edge.


Make all dealer rolls of 2, 3 and 12 automatic pushes and losers.

Oh wait.
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MrCasinoGames
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February 16th, 2012 at 2:58:33 AM permalink
Quote: P90

Make all dealer rolls of 2, 3 and 12 automatic pushes and losers.

Oh wait.


I would say it is better if dealer rolls: 2 and 3 is a automatic losers.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
P90
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February 16th, 2012 at 3:17:50 AM permalink
I mean make the bet push if the dealer rolls 2 or 3, lose if the dealer rolls 12.

But you can see where it is going... the best surviving dice game is best for a reason.
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DJTeddyBear
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February 16th, 2012 at 4:51:00 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is my new page on Beat the Dealer.

I welcome all comments and corrections.


The first rule has very strange wording.
Quote:

1. After players make a wager the dealer will roll two dice and the total noted.


Obviously, all players make a wager, so that part can be eliminated. Or at least separated into it's own line.
"The total noted." is a strange remark that is unnecessary.


In the comparison chart, only Big Six is a link. I found that odd, since the only game I immediately wanted to look up was Boule - a game I never heard of.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizard
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February 16th, 2012 at 5:24:42 AM permalink
Quote: WongBo

My eyes just glaze over when I read some of the proposals on here.



That is a pretty sad commentary if players can't understand losing half on ties, or only certain ties lose.

Casino War often gets teased for being too simple, and that has special rules on ties.

I know I often say that it is hard to overstate the importance of simplicity with new games, but in this case I think you are.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
WongBo
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February 16th, 2012 at 5:31:51 AM permalink
There's no underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
- H.L. Mencken

I suppose a few simple rules aren't that complicating.
I just think they should be easy to remember when you're drunk, and easy to print on the felt.
I know the crowd at that game appreciates the simple things in life.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Wizard
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Wizard
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February 16th, 2012 at 5:45:26 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

The first rule has very strange wording. Obviously, all players make a wager, so that part can be eliminated.



I wanted to point out there there is just one kind of wager to make.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

"The total noted." is a strange remark that is unnecessary.



How else would they remember what the dealer rolled? You can see on the picture of the table at the Turning Stone web site they put a puck on the 5.

I know this idea won't go over well with some here, but I would at least consider an odds bet after the dealer roll.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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February 16th, 2012 at 6:01:37 AM permalink
Understood. It's just that the wording seemed weird to me. I had to read it a couple times.



After posting above, I started to think more about the description here that the dealer uses a Sic-Bo style cage, while the player shoots dice.

That's all well and good, except I'm sure there are people that will think that since they aren't the same dice, they may be loaded to produce higher rolls for the dealer. Obviously, with the very high edge from fair dice, they don't need to use loaded dice, but you just know people are gonna start thinking it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
winmonkeyspit3
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February 16th, 2012 at 7:04:00 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I'm sure it does draw if it's at the front of the pit -- that's the whole point. But I think it can be made far more exciting and also cost-effective. Here's how:

1) Get rid of the dice table and sic bo cage, and use a blackjack table instead. Or two.
2) Get two Pai Gow cups and four dice, two each of two different colors.
3) The dealer and the player each shake the dice shakers and slam them down on the table. This takes much less time than spinning the cage and shooting the dice. It's also very loud -- a great attraction.
4) Reveal the dice cups and evaluate winners.

You'll get many more hands/hour this way than with the dice table. The only reason to use a dice table is to get players used to throwing dice and maybe to move over to craps, which from their website seems to be the goal. But I'm not sure how many people that will actually work on. There's a huge difference between making a $1 carnival bet and a $10 passline bet, if not from an EV standpoint than from a psychological standpoint.

Also, please let them know that if they're paying someone for their "new" game, they shouldn't be -- it's been in the public domain for decades.




Just to expand on this, you wouldn't believe the number of times the dealer asks the player to set the dice back down because they

1) Lifted them off the table
2) Switched hands
3)Put them in both hands to "blow on them" for luck
4) Were about to shoot on the side of the table they are standing on (or did, resulting in no roll)

I'm sure this is extremely irritating for the dealers, and since there are new people playing this game every day this is never going to change. Most craps players would never choose this game, but a lot of new guests do. Keep in mind Turning Stone is one of the largest 18+ casinos in the country, this doesn't help the cause much.
WongBo
WongBo
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February 16th, 2012 at 7:17:26 AM permalink
I was stunned by the popularity of this game when I first visited Turning Stone.
It is the first thing you see walking into the casino after getting your players card.
I assumed it was a craps table and went over. When I saw what it was I immediately knew it was a sucker bet.
I had no idea that the edge was TEN times higher than a pass line bet with no odds.
The game is flanked by two ten dollar craps tables.
Ironic, since the house is clearing $0.14 on the $10 pass line,
And almost the same, clearing $0.11 on the $1 Beat the Dealer wager!
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
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