45 minute dispute involving four supervisers about house way

The second controversy we had at the Pai Gow Poker table was how to set a hand the dealer had. He got A, Joker, 6, 7, 8, 10, 10. The dealer wanted to play it straight on the bottom and A,10 up top. The pit boss corrected him and told him to play aces down and 10's up top. I had a push either way. The dealer disagreed. They pulled out the house rules and laid them on the table and they were so confusing nobody could figure them out. It mentioned something about a straight with two pair go to the two pair rule and then if you had an ace and could improve your top play the ace but if you had two high pairs then play them. I am not joking when I say no less then five supervisors came by to discuss setting this hand and we debated it pretty good for about half an hour. Eventually the top boss decided on the aces and tens. If I had that hand I would have had the straight with A, 10 up top. First of all which is the best way to play that hand? Second which is the more common house way to play that hand?

Pretty sure the best way is A/10 with straight, and I think the House Way is the same. Admittedly my Pai Gow training is 6 months old and I haven't looked at it since (we don't offer it at my location), so I'll give way to Dan, who should chime in right...about...

The number of morons in this business is amazing.
While both settings are strong, generally the two-pair rules is a standard: if you have two pairs, dealer must play it as two pairs, and ignore all other poker elements (straight, flush.)
For floormen to not know this is amazing and scary.
Generally, it is better to play two pairs with a straight or a flush as two pairs, except:
1. If a straight or flush can be played as a traight/flush with an AK for the top, (AAKKQJ10 play as AK/AKQJ10, as Aces are still only a single-pair bottom, yet a straight with an AK or pair top is a monster hand) or
2. Both two pairs are 6's and less, and would otherwise be played together. (e.g., 6544322 play as 42/65432, and not 65/44322.)
Most house ways simply specify "Dealer has two pair - play the hand as a two pair hand."

Quote: Paigowdan

The number of morons in this business is amazing.
While both settings are strong, generally the two-pair rules is a standard: if you have two pairs, dealer must play it as two pairs, and ignore all other poker elements (straight, flush.)
For floormen to not know this is amazing and scary.
Generally, it is better to play two pairs with a straight or a flush as two pairs, except:
1. If a straight or flush can be played as a traight/flush with an AK for the top, (AAKKQJ10 play as AK/AKQJ10, as Aces are still only a single-pair bottom, yet a straight with an AK or pair top is a monster hand) or
2. Both two pairs are 6's and less, and would otherwise be played together. (e.g., 6544322 play as 42/65432, and not 65/44322.)
Most house ways simply specify "Dealer has two pair - play the hand as a two pair hand."

I thought the two pair rule didn't apply if one pair was a "mid" (7-10) and you could play Ace or King in the low hand? I'll assume you know what you're talking about, though. Obviously ;)

Quote: Face

I thought the two pair rule didn't apply if one pair was a "mid" (7-10) and you could play Ace or King in the low hand? I'll assume you know what you're talking about, though. Obviously ;)

Thanks! :)
In houses that have the two-pair rule, the two-pair rules generally takes precedence over all other hand settings.

Thanks guys. If you were playing the hand how would you play it?

It's close, both are great hands - but split Aces and 10's, as you don't have an AK/AQ for the top. (think: with three aces out, the dealer/opponent might easily field an AQ/AJ on top to thwart you.)

I believe most house rules have them split up a pair of aces + any other pair no matter what else they have.

Going off dealer odds

A-7 = 54% chance to win
10-10 = 95%

5 cards

A-A-other crap = 75%
Straight = ~93%

Pick the best combo and looks like splitting is best.


FWIW - It looks like if you had A-K instead of A-7, you might be better off keeping the straight. I say might because these are dealer odds of winning so not sure how much ties would take out of this.

I probably would have split them up before I looked those up. 10-10 is a great hand and a pair of A's is not bad either.

A-7 = 49% chance to win. (but - AK goes up to 65%!)
AA pair = ~68% chance to win. A lot of two pairs, trips, etc., to poke us in the eye.

Forgot to add in my last dealer error on my last trip.

It started off with a discussion of when do they split 2 pair. A hand had come up with something like 8s and 6s and 3 very bad cards. A person at the table thought they pushed. The dealer split them and the guy asked why. The discussion went on, everyone was fine and really just looking to understand the house way.

Fast forward about an hour with a new dealer....

I can't remember if it was exactly the same situation or if something like 6s and 4s with 3 crap cards. Either way, the dealer played it the opposite way we had just discussed an hour before. I was just surprised at the time that within the same casino, the dealers didn't know the same rules.

Casinos that I've played at that use medium pairs tend to be a bit more aggressive in the house way, and I find they have some strange rules in setting the hand in question.

A couple house ways I've seen would have played the A-10 up since the joker was involved. However, had it been A,A,K,Q,J,10,10, those houses would split A-A, 10-10. At least, that's Ameristar KC house way...

Take a look at this: (I relly should have scanned this in for formatting. It's a percentage balancing table for Pai Gow Poker.)


Percentage balancing table: * = two-card tops include banker copy advantage
Five card hand: win percentage two card hand win percentage
Pai Gow J-high or less 0% 6 high or less ~0%
Queen high 1% 7 high 1%
King high 4% 8 high 2%
Ace-7 8% 9 high 3%
Ace-9 13% 10 high 6%
Ace-10 14% Jack high 13%
Ace-J 15% Q-2 18%
A-K 16% Q-8 20%
Pair 2’s 17% Q-10 23%
Pair 4’s 23% Q-J 26%
Pair 6’s 30% K-6 31%
Pair 8’s 38% K-10 36%
Pair 10’s 49% K-J 40% *
Pair J’s mid point 50% K-Q 47% *
Pair Queens 56% A-2 49%
Pair kings 61% A-7 50% mid point
Pair Aces 67% A-9 51%
Two pairs 3 high 76% A-J 58% *
Two pairs 7 high 78% A-Q 62% *
Two pairs 10 high 81% A-K 69% *
Two pairs Ace high 82% Pair 2’s 72%
Three 2’s 83% Pair 4’s 76%
Three Aces 89% Pair 6’s 81%
Straight 6 high 90% Pair 8’s 85%
Straight jack high 93% Pair 10’s 89%
Straight Ace high 96% Pair of J’s 93%
Flush 7 high 97% Pair of Q’s 95%
Flush Ace high 98% Pair of K’s 97%
Full house and up ~100% Pair of Aces 100%


Split Two-pair Queens NWhh
Queens 2-card win 5-card win Aggregate win 2-card loss 5-card loss aggregate loss NWhh
QQJJ 0.931 0.550 0.512 0.069 0.450 0.031 48.1
QQ1010 0.891 0.550 0.490 0.109 0.450 0.049 44.1
QQ99 0.871 0.550 0.479 0.129 0.450 0.058 42.1
QQ88 0.850 0.550 0.468 0.150 0.450 0.068 40.0
QQ77 0.829 0.550 0.456 0.171 0.450 0.077 37.9
QQ66 0.807 0.550 0.444 0.193 0.450 0.087 35.7
QQ55 0.785 0.550 0.432 0.215 0.450 0.097 33.5
QQ44 0.763 0.550 0.420 0.237 0.450 0.107 31.3
QQ33 0.740 0.550 0.407 0.260 0.450 0.117 29.0
QQ22 0.718 0.550 0.395 0.282 0.450 0.127 26.8

Unsplit two pair NWhh:
Cutoff points to keep two pair, using TSCF (top side copy factor) FOR DEALER/BANKER ADVANTAGE
Top side Values AK AQ AJ A-x KQ KJ K-x
as dealer Two card 69.3% 62.4% 57.7% 50.1% 47.0% 39.8% 35.1%
player 64.6% 59.3% 55.6% 49.7% 44.2% 38.3% 35.0%
dealer value is player value * copying frequency, e.g., dealers' AK = 64.6 * 1.072 or 69.3%, as AK copies 7.2% of the time
(for AQ, copy factor is 5.3%, AJ it's 3.7%, for KQ it's 6.3%, for KJ it's 3.9%, for K-low it's 0.2%
Unsplit Five card w/ AK AQ AJ A-x KQ KJ K-x
QQxx 82.0% 51.3% (overlap) 39.7% 32.1% 29.0% N/A N/A
Keep all (overlap) Keep 7's- keep 4's - SPLIT ALL

QQAK3/77 Played the standard house way, as split pairs:
Hand Played as Win Push Lose Wins-Losses
Five card side: QQAK3 .56 - .44
Two card side: 77 .83 - .17
Combined hand: QQAK3/77 .46 (.47) .07 = 39 NWHH

NWHH = +39
DHH = 53
CW/L = 14, (or the portion of the DHH that the were canceling wins/loses)

QQ77AK3 Played with the EZ Pai Gow house way, AK up:
Hand Played as Win Push Lose Wins-Losses
Five card side: QQ773 .83 - .17
Two card side: AK .69 - .31
Combined hand: QQ773/AK .57 (.38) .05 = 52 NWHH
NWHH = 52
DHH = 62
CW/L = 10, 10 canceling win/loss actions

Along with a comparison summary:

Summary:
QQ77AK3 Split Unsplit result .
NWHH 39 52 improved by 13 net wins
CW/L 14 10 improved by 4 actions

Lubin-Jones, LLC Table Games, 2008

Quote: hook3670

Thanks guys. If you were playing the hand how would you play it?

That's why I love Pai Gow, the feeling of "playing defense" (I'm very defense oriented in sports).

I've lost absolute knowledge of House Way and would fall to instinct and general knowledge. Normally I'd play the A/10 with a Straight, figuring the Straight was a lock and I'd have a good chance of pulling the Ace to victory. If, on the other hand, I just DID NOT want to lose, I'd put the A/Joker up high with 10's under it, figuring there'd be no way (figuratively) that the dealer would pull 2 of the 3 remaining Aces, and at least guarantee a push.

I realize this may be (probably is) incorrect, but that's what I'd do and why.

Keep in mind I represent the dark side (Gaming Commission) and am in no way a gambling savant, so grain of salt and all that...

Quote: Face

Keep in mind I represent the dark side (Gaming Commission) and am in no way a gambling savant, so grain of salt and all that...

You are the good soldier working for the good guys. Serve and protect this great industry.

In Lake Tahoe they only have low 5's or less and high 6's or higher and they keep two low pairs together no matter what is on top. First time I have ever seen that house way.

90% of house ways are written up by use of the "House Way Dart Board." Or passed down through the ages on overly Xeroxed sheets, origins unknown.

Quote: Paigowdan

You are the good soldier working for the good guys. Serve and protect this great industry.

Hehe, I know, just slightly influenced from an exchange with a dealer last week. Walking down the hall with our pizza delivery, I came across Mr Dealer who asked if the pizza was for the Commish (he must have thought I was the delivery guy, even though I was dressed to the nines) I smiled and said yeah, and he turns and asks me to open it up so he could spit in it! The smile from my face fell and I just glared at him as his eyes go wide and his mouth gaped open. He stuttered and stammered before saying "I mean...I...I... don't know anyone in there or anything" and hurried off just as I badge into the locked door to the Commish office. Open mouth and insert foot, indeed.

I'll get over it, it's rather funny looking back on it. It was just kind of a reminder that we'll always be the bad guys to some and I guess it carried over to here. No worries =)

Quote: Face

I'll get over it, it's rather funny looking back on it. It was just kind of a reminder that we'll always be the bad guys to some and I guess it carried over to here. No worries =)

Good attitide, even if for preservation of peace of mind. The casino dealers and floorman are not always viewed as fellow participants in a game (with "the players") that we mutually run correctly and by the rules for the good of us all and for all "good gaming" to happen. we're viewed as "the enemy house" who must be taken down, in a us versus them attitude, where the rules of the house is by the house and for the house. Shot taking and cheating sometimes become righteously justified on the "good guys vs. bad guys" mindset when we all supposed on the same game at the same times with the same rules. Break downs happen.
Face, I will PM an incident from Saturday night that's from a live crap game incident we had, an interesting review to say the least. Regards,....

Quote: hook3670

The pit boss told him to ... The dealer disagreed.

That right there is the problem and the fact that no one there and apparently no one here can really agree on what is proper then I think the problem is widespread.

Forty-five minute argument??? What is wrong with these casinos that they can expect to wind up the year in the black and also afford to suffer a 45 minute break in the game? Any game!

What are they going to be saying at the Big Six wheel? This is a simple game, the arguments are very few and very brief. As you venture deeper into the casino you can work your way up to a Pai Gow Poker game at which you argue for 45 minutes.

Aces and tens with the straight- split them! The ace ten gets busted FAR more than the tens do, especially when you know the deck is missing 2 aces, 3 faces, and 2 tens. The likelihood of a picure pair in the 2 card hand is diminished. With 2 aces out of the deck the likelihood of the dealer having to split two lower pairs is increased, making your single pair of aces stronger. Also, if by some chance the dealer can play aces in the 5 card hand you will out kick him. A - 10 is not strong enough to give up 10's, period. A - K, with 2 aces and 2 kings out of the deck probably is.

Quote: hook3670

First of all which is the best way to play that hand? Second which is the more common house way to play that hand?

Which setting is better? That's irrelevant.

Remember that the House Ways are generally not designed to win the most, but to lose the least. It's a subtle difference, but important.

Quote: Paigowdan

The number of morons in this business is amazing.
For floormen to not know this is amazing and scary.

It doesn't surprise me.

In Hook's original post, he made it seem like the official House Way rules list was littered with exceptions, some of which were contradictory.

Quote: Face

I'd put the A/Joker up high with 10's under it, figuring there'd be no way (figuratively) that the dealer would pull 2 of the 3 remaining Aces, and at least guarantee a push.

You may have thought that you would guarantee a push, but the only thing that you guaranteed is a loss!

The 5 card hand must be higher than the 2 card hand. It should be Aces on the bottom and 10's up top.

Setting the cards your way (Aces up and 10's down) would disqualify the hand resulting in an automatic loss.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Remember that the House Ways are generally not designed to win the most, but to lose the least. It's a subtle difference, but important.

Honest question - Why is this the case?

The game of Pai Gow makes a casino money based on two factors: Commission on winning bets and the banker's privilege of winning the 'copy' hands.*

In a fully bankable game (that is where each player may bank in turn), the effect of the banker's privilege is a net-0. For every x players (including the house), each player gets the advantage against (x-1) players every x turns (that is, once a cycle around the table). It's just like the dealer button at a Hold-em game. Everyone gets their turn.

In fact, in California, there are PGP games where the house doesn't even field a hand. They simply deal the cards, collect commission and the players all bank for themselves in turn.

That leaves commission. Which of the sets of hands does a casino make more money on: (50 wins, 50 losses, 0 pushes), (0 wins, 0 losses, 100 pushes), (32 wins, 34 losses, 34 pushes)?

Playing to "lose the least," does not seem like a smart position for a casino to develop a house way from. Given the effect of a small player bankroll / risk of ruin relative to the house, a casino would be wiser to set hands more aggressively winning *and* losing more hands. This churn would generate more commission for the same set of cards and would, over the long run, bust more players out as they get closer to the end of their bankrolls.

This is just my (not so) humble opinion, at least.

I think most house ways say under the straights section that if you also have a two pair to follow the two pair rule. The two pair rule will probably tell you to split up the two pair.

In my opinion the casino should let the player see the house way rule in writing in such cases. It has happened to me a few times in pai gow tiles where the dealer sets the hand one way and then the supervisor jumps in and says the casino added a new exception to the rules, changing the way the dealer set the hand, turning my win into a push, or a push into a loss. Whenever I ask to see the rule in writing I get rebuffed.

The player should always be allowed to know the rules of the game he is playing.

Quote: Wizard

The player should always be allowed to know the rules of the game he is playing.

Yes. And I think that to be fair about it, the casino should also make sure the dealers and floor men know the rules too.

Whether its Pai Gow poker or Pai Gow tiles or whatever ... there is no such thing as the "House Way" unless its defined somewhere and available. Now "house wine" and "house salad dressing" and "house this 'n that" are all fine and dandy and one takes their chance. However, there is no such thing as a nominal house way or a house way on one particular shift but not on others or a house way with one floorman but a different houseway with another.

I don't know anything about this Gee, Gong, Earth, Moon and Happy Pig stuff in Pai Gow Tiles but if someone says "house way" they darn well better be able to pull out some laminated card with text and diagrams on it.

Quote: FleaStiff

I don't know anything about this Gee, Gong, Earth, Moon and Happy Pig stuff in Pai Gow Tiles but if someone says "house way" they darn well better be able to pull out some laminated card with text and diagrams on it.

Fat chance of that. I bet you could give the average casino two hours to produce a tiles house way and they wouldn't be able to produce one. Most casinos follow the same general strategy, but each adds its own exceptions. However, I think such lists of exceptions and handed down verbally, on an as-needed basis, so nobody really has a complete list of them.

I assume the house sets it's hand before you reveal yours?

Quote: PerpetualNewbie

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Remember that the House Ways are generally not designed to win the most, but to lose the least. It's a subtle difference, but important.

Honest question - Why is this the case?

Good question. And a good analysis you have there.

For the record, I originally heard that from a pit boss, and had it repeated from a dealer in a different casino.

However, since it's been pointed out here and in other threads that the casino staff is not always the best source of that kind of information, I think I'll stop repeating that tidbit.

Quote: thecesspit

I assume the house sets it's hand before you reveal yours?

Yes.

The exception is if you ask for assistance setting your hand. The rule there is to wait for all other players to set their hand, then ask for assistance. Your cards/tiles will be turned up, set house way, then you have the option of taking that setting or not. In most casinos, even if you're playing alone, you then turn your cards/tiles face down before the dealer will turn his cards/tiles up.

Quote: Wizard

Fat chance of that. I bet you could give the average casino two hours to produce a tiles house way and they wouldn't be able to produce one. Most casinos follow the same general strategy, but each adds its own exceptions. However, I think such lists of exceptions and handed down verbally, on an as-needed basis, so nobody really has a complete list of them.

Got to agree with the Wizard and this has been the norm for many years.

When I used to teach Pai Gow Tiles and Pia Gow Poker to new Dealers in dealer school, back in the 90s in Reno, I knew of only 1 casino that actually had a laminated card for house way. I was told it had never been used.
When a casino would send Dealers over to learn new games, the house ways were always found in the Dealers' Handbook. Funny, most Dealers did not know they were even in there and sad but true there were many errors or just plain out-dated material contained in them.

Quote: thecesspit

I assume the house sets it's hand before you reveal yours?

Sort of. Yes, they do set them before turning over your tiles. However, as I was saying before, sometimes a supervisor will jump into the game after he sees all the tiles and supposedly corrects the way the dealer set the hand. Funny how such corrections either hurt me or have no effect, they never seem to help.

Some notes:
1. Fiesta Henderson actually keeps a copy of its house way at each Pai Gow table, under/next to its shuffler machine.
2. The product documentation (the technical documentation) for EZ Pai Gow has listed in it the "factory spec" house way that was verified by Charles R. Mousseau, the gaming mathematician we use.

Mike's WOO site has an appendix of various house ways in the PGP poker area. Bless him.

House ways are determined to maximize the expected value for the casino. I would assume that house ways are developed using the copy hand in the house's favor, which would be a weakness if players bank alot. My experience at most tables is that well less than 10% of the money wagered is when a player is banking, most players just don't bank. The caveat about a 'house ways' is that it must be reasonable for a dealer to understand. So that's why certain hands are lumped together. For example, 10 10 9 9 A 2 3 is played as two pair with the A 3 up top. (Medium medium with an ace). I would always put the 9 9 up top. However, 8 8 7 7 A K 2 is also medium medium with an ace, but I would always put the A K up top. Having a dealer learn those specific subtleties would make a 'house ways' page into a book. Those that say the casino tries to push complicated hands must be wrong. The casino has fixed per hour costs and would prefer if 3 players won, 3 lost, to 6 pushes.

Quote: Wizard

Sort of. Yes, they do set them before turning over your tiles. However, as I was saying before, sometimes a supervisor will jump into the game after he sees all the tiles and supposedly corrects the way the dealer set the hand. Funny how such corrections either hurt me or have no effect, they never seem to help.

Hmmm, on that sort of "correction" I'd be tempted to cash in my chips, leave and never darken the door of the casino again. They'd not actually give two hoots due to my action. I might be tempted to re-arrange my hand again... saying "fairs fair, you got a Mulligan, I want one as well"....

That sort of "correction" seems highly suspect.

Soopoo - kind of true.
Pai Gow house ways are designed to be a comprimise between decent play versus "easy - or possible - to deal."
As for lumping hands together, there is a bit of slop in most house ways, partly because most house ways weren't mathematically examined or verified, but passed down from shift manager x to floorman y as "well, it seems to work well enough" without really knowing.
Your right about the play of the two hands you listed, and one or both would fall into the gray area of a slight misplay. (I have a modified house way that consideres Ace-face versus A-x, and KQ/KJ versus K-x on the two card side to refine house wayplay; still easy to deal, and without going over one page. Sort of an AK rule.)
See below:

Pai Gow: Highest card in five card hand, 2nd and 3rd strongest on two card side.
One pair: Always play pair in five card side, with next two strongest cards up

Two pairs:
a. Always split Ace-high two pairs.
b. Always split jacks and 7’s or better, except when having an AK for the top.
c. Always keep two-pairs 6’s and less with any King or better top, else split.
d. Split all other two pairs without an ace, but keep together with an ace.

Three pairs: always play the highest pair in the two-card side

Three of a kind, simple (no flush or straight with it):
a. Three Aces always split 2-and-1, as a pair of aces for the five-card side.
b. All other three of a kinds (Kings and less) never break up.

Two three of a kinds: split off a pair from the higher group for the top.

Straights and/or flushes:
a. Straight or flush with one pair: If the pair is Jacks or better, and the top is Ace-face or better, play as one pair if the straight or flush has a queen or less top.
b. Straight or flush with two pairs:
i. - Always play as a straight or flush with an AK or AQ top.
ii. - Play as straight or flush if it’s two low pairs with a Q or lower top.
iii. - Else play as two-pair hand.

Straight with Flush: if either the straight or flush has a Queen or better top, then play the better top; if both tops are Jack or less, then play the stronger flush.
Straight or flush with three pairs: Always play as a three pair hand.
Straight or flush with three of a kind: always play it as a straight or flush with pair or ace up. (Play 9888765 as 98765/88, and AA*2459=A2*45/A9)
Straight or flush with full house: Play as flush or straight if it has a higher pair for the top, else treat as full house, below.
Straight flush or Royal Flush: Always handle as straight and/or flush, above.

Full house:
a. If you have a full house with an extra pair, then play the higher pair up;
b. If your full house’s pair is 5’s or less, keep with AK or AQ, else split.

Four of a kind:
a. Always split four Aces 2 & 2, unless there’s a pair of 4’s or better for the top.
b. Keep all other quads (K’s and less) with an Ace-Jack or better, else split 2 & 2.
c. Split four Kings or Queens 3 & 1 with an Ace-low (AK/AQ top), else split 2 & 2.
d. Keep 10’s or Jacks together with any ace or pair for the top, else split 2 & 2.
e. Keep 7’s through 9’s together with any King or better top, else split 2 & 2.
f. Keep 6’s and lower with a Queen or better top, else split 2 & 2.

For four of a kind with a three of a kind, split a pair from the higher group for top.

Five aces: Always play a pair of aces up.

Geez and people think craps is complicated!

Quote: thecesspit

Hmmm, on that sort of "correction" I'd be tempted to cash in my chips, leave and never darken the door of the casino again. They'd not actually give two hoots due to my action. I might be tempted to re-arrange my hand again... saying "fairs fair, you got a Mulligan, I want one as well"....That sort of "correction" seems highly suspect.

Back when I played tiles a lot I cared about the relationship with the casino, because I was trying to get invited to high-level table game tournaments. Sometimes you have to suffer a little injustice in the interests keeping your eye on the prize.

Every pai gow tables, whether cards or tiles, will say "Dealer must set hand according to the house way." As Dan mentioned, sometimes the Station casinos will have it right there on a rack card. However, in tiles, fat chance. I think if the casino is going to insist on that "house way" rule they should be able to produce a copy in writing.

ed431390

Quote: 7craps

"it is better to prevent a beef than to win one"

Now that's a quote EVERY floorman should live by, short of allowing customer theft.

The casino and the pit bosses easily produced the lamenated 8x11 showing the house way and even set it on the table for all to see. It was reviewed by all the managers/pit bosses that were called in, the dealer and the four players. The problem was it was so poorly written and full of contradictions, that 10 different people could not agree as to what rules to follow or which rule took precedent. Eventually, they decided to default to the "basic" two pair rule and set it as 10's and aces. It took so long because they kept calling in new pit bosses and keeping this debate going and going and going....

Quote: Wizard

Every pai gow tables, whether cards or tiles, will say "Dealer must set hand according to the house way." As Dan mentioned, sometimes the Station casinos will have it right there on a rack card. However, in tiles, fat chance. I think if the casino is going to insist on that "house way" rule they should be able to produce a copy in writing.

Spot on. Every BJ table says "Dealer draws until 17, hits Soft-17" - as Blackjack's "house way." Plain and simple. No Question on it - and no dispute!
And as posted in a relevant post here: "Better to avoid an altercation than to win one!" [Short of outright customer theft.]
I check under the Shufflemaster machine for a copy when tapping into a Pai Gow table, knowing full well ahead of time there may be a dispute. I also know ther's a stack of House Way sheets in the pit's podium.
Our House way rules are very straightfoward:
- Two pairs are played as follows...
- A straight or a flush with two pairs - treat as a two pair hand...
etc.

I once held up a game for about 10-15 minutes arguing that my A-2-3-4-5 beat the dealers 5-6-7-8-9. It took two floor people to finally hunt down a piece of paper telling them to pay me my $5.

Unreal. Makes me ashamed of our great industry.
It is clearly listed on 95% of Pai Gow Poker table limit "placard" signs that says "The A-5 'wheel' straight is the second-highest straight next to A-10 straight."
Some plain English here...

Dan, not every casino recognizes this. The Lake Tahoe and Seminole South Florida casinos recognize it as the lowest straight for sure because I have played there and asked. I have heard but not confirmed, that Trump in A/C also has it as the lowest straight.

Quote: hook3670

Dan, not every casino recognizes this. The Lake Tahoe and Seminole South Florida casinos recognize it as the lowest straight for sure because I have played there and asked. I have heard but not confirmed, that Trump in A/C also has it as the lowest straight.

You are right, and I know this is true, - and I view it as one hell of a Pai Gow-specific problem.

Quote: kp

I once held up a game for about 10-15 minutes arguing that my A-2-3-4-5 beat the dealers 5-6-7-8-9. It took two floor people to finally hunt down a piece of paper telling them to pay me my $5.

Yipes. Let us assume it was solely a ten minute delay. How much did the casino lose in ten minutes of an idle table and ten minutes of pissed off customers and ten minutes of distracted floor people whose eyes can't be in two places at once. All for a lousy five bucks? Sheer utter stupidity. If you don't know ... pay the guy his lousy five bucks and spend that night learning what the answer is.

Exactly!

Quote: hook3670

I have heard but not confirmed, that Trump in A/C also has it as the lowest straight.

There's a chance that I'll be heading there this weekend. If so, I'll try to remember to ask.

Heck, I'll also ask if they can produce the house ways rule sheet.

My experience in Washington is that the house way is always either posted or displayed as a rack card. It may be a law, and I may have a selective memory.

I would also humbly submit to Paigow Dan that this is similar to my point a couple months ago that I have seen dealers make mistakes on a not uncommon basis. In a small casino, it may be easier for a dealer to just set the hand quickly than to call over a pitboss and waste everyone's time over a single hand.

Quote: hook3670

not every casino recognizes this. The Lake Tahoe ... Seminole South Florida .... Trump in A/C...

Yipes. I've heard of something in craps that is nicknamed the Buffalo Bet and seems to have a West Coast meaning and an East Coast meaning, but this relates to a nickname for a prop bet combination. I can't believe that in some recognized and very fundamental concept "House Way" has a variable meaning or an ill-defined meaning. I mean I would think that there would be some sort of "Hoyle" somewhere wouldn't there?

I expect that an electric chair has a 400 page manual somewhere and all the guards ever use is the laminated placard that says Strap the sucker to the chair and throw the switch. And I would expect some sort of footnote to the posted placard that reads "This depiction of The House Way is a visual depiction of the proper application of the textual rules. It is for illustrative purposes only, all disputants are referred to the textual rules located in Some High Mucky-Muck's well-known reference work".

I don't play Pai Gow Poker and given this thread, I don't think I ever will.
Does the same House Way confusion apply to Pai Gow Tiles?

Is there a Hoyle? Is there a International Association of Pai Gow Aficionados?

Quote: 7craps

Maybe the Wizard can add that to his list of questions to ask when he visits a casino. Where is your house way card? and Why not? if it can not be found.

I used to do that a lot when it really bothered me that casinos would not or could not produce a house way to show me, as if it was some tightly held company secret. However, sadly, I've come to expect it.

I've told this story before but the most surreal incident was at the Tropicana in Atlantic City. Sometimes the casino rules will say the house way is available upon request, which was the case there. So I showed the floorman their own rules and then requested to see the house way. Then he dug around some papers in the pit and produced a copy of it. However, he then looked at it carefully and noticed it didn't have the phone number for Gambler's Anonymous on it, which you tend to see on everything gambling related in Atlantic City. He said he couldn't show it to me because it didn't have the phone number. I suggested he write it down himself on the paper, and offered my pen. He considered this for a few seconds, but then said "no" again.

After that I went next door, asked for the house way at the Trump Plaza. The floor man produced it (without the GA phone number on it) and let me copy the whole thing down on an empty table.

By the way, note how you don't see the GA phone number on my site, as you do on most gambling web sites. I figure if you need it, you could find it yourself.