Runlikegod777
Joined: Oct 15, 2017
• Posts: 81
November 27th, 2022 at 5:29:16 AM permalink
Hello, i was using this calculator to practice pai gow hands, but the casino's in california the joker is fully wild. Is there a calculator available when the joker is fully wild?

https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/calculator/
Runlikegod777
Joined: Oct 15, 2017
• Posts: 81
November 29th, 2022 at 11:31:38 PM permalink
does wizard have one available? I couldnt find how to set hands when the joker is fully wild
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4403
November 30th, 2022 at 5:26:10 AM permalink
I believe the short answer is no.

Pai gow poker is a difficult game to analyze (7-cards each to make 2 hands each from a 53 card deck.) The current hand analyzer with partially-wild joker, was written by JB, a professional programmer, in collaboration with the Wizard. I wrote my own home version of a Pai Gow hand analyzer lacking all the fancy graphics for input and output. For me, the amount of effort was enormous - I would not want to do that again for a fully-wild joker.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 2826
November 30th, 2022 at 11:23:24 AM permalink
Quote: Runlikegod777

Hello...Is there a calculator available when the joker is fully wild?...

I'm guessing it could become complicated as you would need to define/clarify a House Way. For instance a hand like KKQJT3! could count as Two Pair and be set QQ KKJT3 rather than K3 !KQJT. Also with, say, AAAK76! do you play AA !AK76 or !K AAA76? There's quite a few new scenarios to think about.

It's this bit that is complicated, since typical coding (I've also done it a while ago) looks at every way the Player could split their cards and then compares it with the results against all the possible hands the Dealer might get. Thus you need a well defined House Way.

btw is House Way really !Q KKJT3 as I always assumed it would make a straight - do they mostly now play it like the Two Pairs rule if the low hand can be Ace-high (I see that MGM have that added that rule)?
Quote: https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/house-way/mgm/

With Ace or Joker and pair of 10's, Jacks, Queens or Kings — play Ace or Joker in front hand and pair in high hand, unless a straight or flush can be maintained with an Ace in the low hand.

gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4403
November 30th, 2022 at 1:06:20 PM permalink
Wow. Charlie's question provoked me to revisit the WOO pages on House Ways. It appears that during the past 10 years there has been a proliferation of new House Ways and that the House Way rules for any given casino have become increasingly more complex. Obviously the intent is to shut down inefficencies in the way that Dealers arrange:
- Two Pair hands
- Straight/Flush/Straight Flush hands that also have a pair
- Full Houses of various types

so as to increase the overall House Edge.

I suspect that these House Way changes may have only a minor effect on player strategy, but I don't know of any published strategies for virtually any of these 17 different house ways, much less any published values of House Edge.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
• Posts: 9916
November 30th, 2022 at 1:45:18 PM permalink
Making the joker fully wild is essentially creating an entirely new game. The joker can now never be part of a ‘Pai Gow’ hand. FAR MORE two pair hands. FAR LESS ace high hands in the low hand. Etc….
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4403
Thanks for this post from:
November 30th, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Making the joker fully wild is essentially creating an entirely new game. The joker can now never be part of a ‘Pai Gow’ hand. FAR MORE two pair hands. FAR LESS ace high hands in the low hand. Etc….

Yes, I strongly agree. the low hand will have far less ace-high hands but more 1 pair hands (from splitting two pair.). A 7-card hand with A-A-Joker is completely different than one with A-A-A. Two natural pairs with a joker and two singletons will occur >1% of the time and will usually be arranged as Trips in back and the higher pair in front. Three natural pairs with a joker kicker is now a boat in back and the highest pair in front.

Basically, 7/53 or 13.2% of all hands have a joker in them and they have become, on average, more powerful. And, if you don't have the joker in your hand, then the odds of the dealer having a joker are 7/46 = 15.2%. And if the players on your right and left don't have the joker either, it is almost 22% that the dealer has it -which should about double the odds of the dealer having a pair in his two-card hand. Be very afraid.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Runlikegod777
Joined: Oct 15, 2017
• Posts: 81
November 30th, 2022 at 3:45:41 PM permalink
If we did need to clarify house way, for 2 pair if they have AA, KK, QQ they always split, jacks to 7's split if you have ace high, 6's and below split with king high. Three of a kind: Always play three of a kind in back unless they are aces, then play a pair of aces in back and one ace in front.. Straight, Flush, Straight Flush:
With No Pair: Place the two highest cards in front that will leave any complete hand in back.
With One Pair: Place highest possible two cards (pair or no pair) in front that will leave any complete hand in back.
Four of a Kind:
Aces, Kings, Queens, Jacks: Always split.
10s, 9s, 8s, 7s: Play four of a kind in back if you can; put at least a King up front; otherwise split.
6s and below: never split.
Four of a Kind with a Pair (or Three of a Kind): Play the pair in front.

QQ KKJT3 is .566 return vs k3 akqj10 is .326 and kkj103 with aq is .35. so I am looking for something like this that would show the different combos when I plug in the hand, and then i can see myself qq kk j103 is the optimal at .566

I would be willing to pay for someone to make something.
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4403
Thanks for this post from:
November 30th, 2022 at 3:52:28 PM permalink
Quote: Runlikegod777

I dont think we would need to clairfy the house way. what i am looking for is which way to set has the highest return for any given hand, that way I know how to set the hand correctly.

QQ KKJT3 is .566 return vs k3 akqj10 is .326 and kkj103 with aq is .35. so I am looking for something like this that would show the different combos when I plug in the hand, and then i can see myself qq kk j103 is the optimal at .566

I would be willing to pay for someone to make something.

The question you are asking may indeed occasionally depend upon the House Way. Because the probability distribution of Dealer hands in the front and the back depends upon the rules he plays by, and the EV of your possible arrangements are directly detrmined by those dealer probability distributions.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Runlikegod777
Joined: Oct 15, 2017
• Posts: 81
November 30th, 2022 at 8:36:49 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Quote: Runlikegod777

I dont think we would need to clairfy the house way. what i am looking for is which way to set has the highest return for any given hand, that way I know how to set the hand correctly.

QQ KKJT3 is .566 return vs k3 akqj10 is .326 and kkj103 with aq is .35. so I am looking for something like this that would show the different combos when I plug in the hand, and then i can see myself qq kk j103 is the optimal at .566

I would be willing to pay for someone to make something.