AP: At What Cost?

Throughout the gambling threads there are multiple references to AP ("advantage play" and "advantage player"). "Advantage play," I believe, is a result of casino offers to patrons in the forms of free slot play and/or free table play. It is NOT, I believe, actual gaming play, strategy, or systems employed by a player. Therefore, the "advantage player" is one who receives and uses the offers (free money) to play and hopefully win without diving into his/her own bankroll. A considerable number of forum members claim AP. I am not one. I do receive considerable comp offers from my favorite casino RFB every month plus $50 slot play and $20 table play on average.

During an average 4day/three night stay, I put about $3,000 in play with most of it dedicated to table play (craps) and 3 card poker. The rest is slot play. That is my "cost" which results in the above listed comps. BTW because my favorite casino is a 6 1/2 hour drive from home, I usually play three to four times a year.

Questions for the "real" AP's:

1. With $50 in slot play, which machine would you play and at what denomination level?
2. How often do you patronize your favorite casino?
3. What kinds of comps and $$$ offers do you receive on a monthly basis?
4. What do you estimate your "cost" to receive those offers?
5. If you get free slot play, what machines do you frequent and what denomination level do you play?
6. Can you provide some general advice regarding being AP that might enhance our gaming experiences?

tuttigym

Advantage play has many facets, taking Advantage of the marketing department
is a significant portion however it is not absolute for example Vulturing can be successful
absent promotion so your initial presupposition is a bit off,

Quote: tuttigym

Throughout the gambling threads there are multiple references to AP ("advantage play" and "advantage player"). "Advantage play," I believe, is a result of casino offers to patrons in the forms of free slot play and/or free table play.

not 'just' that

Quote:

It is NOT, I believe, actual gaming play, strategy ...

it can be. examples: card counting, using a flashing dealer

Quote:

or systems employed by a player.

not systems like those often criticized here

Quote:

Therefore, the "advantage player" is one who receives and uses the offers (free money) to play and hopefully win without diving into his/her own bankroll...

these things come your way and all are wise to cash them in

Quote:

A considerable number of forum members claim AP. I am not one. I do receive considerable comp offers from my favorite casino RFB every month plus $50 slot play and $20 table play on average.

During an average 4day/three night stay, I put about $3,000 in play with most of it dedicated to table play (craps) and 3 card poker. The rest is slot play. That is my "cost" which results in the above listed comps. BTW because my favorite casino is a 6 1/2 hour drive from home, I usually play three to four times a year.

$3k in bankroll typically means 10s of thousands in 'coin-in', which is what matters ... casinos track 'daily theoretical loss' I think they call it, and will be looking at that

Quote:

Questions for the "real" AP's:

excludes me

[1-6 snipped off]
link to original post

some thoughts:

* don't play for comps thinking you will now be an AP. The casino has to make an error for that to happen
* you can be over-comped, I have been, but it doesn't amount to much.

Quote: tuttigym

Throughout the gambling threads there are multiple references to AP ("advantage play" and "advantage player"). "Advantage play," I believe, is a result of casino offers to patrons in the forms of free slot play and/or free table play. It is NOT, I believe, actual gaming play, strategy, or systems employed by a player. Therefore, the "advantage player" is one who receives and uses the offers (free money) to play and hopefully win without diving into his/her own bankroll. A considerable number of forum members claim AP. I am not one. I do receive considerable comp offers from my favorite casino RFB every month plus $50 slot play and $20 table play on average.

During an average 4day/three night stay, I put about $3,000 in play with most of it dedicated to table play (craps) and 3 card poker. The rest is slot play. That is my "cost" which results in the above listed comps. BTW because my favorite casino is a 6 1/2 hour drive from home, I usually play three to four times a year.

Questions for the "real" AP's:

1. With $50 in slot play, which machine would you play and at what denomination level?
2. How often do you patronize your favorite casino?
3. What kinds of comps and $$$ offers do you receive on a monthly basis?
4. What do you estimate your "cost" to receive those offers?
5. If you get free slot play, what machines do you frequent and what denomination level do you play?
6. Can you provide some general advice regarding being AP that might enhance our gaming experiences?

tuttigym
link to original post

Hi, Tuttigym

Before answering the questions, your hypothesis as to what constitutes AP is incorrect. AP is when any advantage in a casino can be found AND said advantage is legal under current gaming laws.

The distinction is important. Advantage in a casino that is not legal under the law is simply called cheating. For example, sneaking extra chips onto a Roulette bet after the winning number is declared (called past posting) is definitely an advantage but not an advantage play. You risk getting arrested and thrown in jail. With true advantage play, the casino tries to stop you, will accuse you of being a criminal but generally knows very well you are not.

Advantage Players are not welcome in casinos for 99% of advantage play (perhaps only Must Hits AP is really tolerated) and besides winning a lot (because you have an advantage) expect heat or casinos trying to evict you if you fail to stay under the radar.

Counting cards at table games, primarily Blackjack is an Advantage Play. Other table game advantage plays are hole carding and shuffle tracking and a few others.

I believe you are reading my current thread about my battle with the Golden Nugget (part seven is now up, hint) and I specialize in an area known as comp hustling and a particular subset of that called multicarding. The AP is to understand how to get the offers of a particular size such that the offers outweigh the cost of getting them. You ask what that cost is and I can't exactly answer because it differs from property to property even within the same chain. Also, to establish camouflage in certain properties the cost may be significantly more (or even significantly less) than is optimal.

Simply using offers is not an AP move in my opinion. It's how they were obtained and will your use of them gain you an ultimate profit.

$50 isn't a lot of Freeplay. I would wager $1 at a slot and keep the count. I am always surprised how many people don't do the count but simply, if you have $50 FP and are wagering $1, then count fifty spins and you are done. Cash out what is in the machine and that's your turnover for freeplay. Some casinos do the count for you onscreen which makes it easier or doesn't add points when playing FP but still those are just variations of keeping the count.

How often I patronize my favorite casinos is moot. I actually try to stay home and let my "crew" do the work. In my beginning days I went seven days a week. I was also homeless at the time so there wasn't anything better to do that earned me money. At the beginning, I mean really beginning days, my AP earned me a paltry amount.

What you in particular are doing is not AP. You are just enjoying a well deserved and well earned momentary advantage afforded by the casino at cost which is as it should be. Without intent to insult, you are still operating in the parlance of the industry, what is known as a Ploppie. So general advice for being an AP isn't useful. For example, using your Freeplay, do not bother with camouflage or being concerned about issues with casino security. Brag about your Freeplay if you wish. No one in the casino staff is going to be problematic on that part.

If you want to learn more about earning offers, search for my threads on A NY AP move revealed. I don't give away all the secrets but that thread will give you some idea of Advantage Play.

Quote: tuttigym

___

How much do you want to reduce your time to what may not be very enjoyable to you?

Vulturing machines for instance may involve checking and rechecking certain machines. If in the same casino for 3 days, you can get a lot of exercise doing this. You can make several visits to the same machines with nothing worth playing at that moment.

Even after learning the strategy for AP Video poker, I never really enjoyed doing long stretches that are really necessary to show some optimum return. Eventually, I just went to a casual pace, as I did not enjoy the grind of speeding along.

Quote: rainman

Advantage play has many facets, taking Advantage of the marketing department
is a significant portion however it is not absolute for example Vulturing can be successful
absent promotion so your initial presupposition is a bit off,
link to original post

I have read all the great responses, and they all are honest, thoughtful, and provide real insight into my thesis. I also was pretty sure that my general definition was NOT absolute and needed "cleaning" up.

I know "vulturing" goes on, but it something I personally would not go out of my way to do. I am not that hard up, and the time necessary to accomplish it "successfully" is probably outlandish.

tuttigym

Tuttigym I love your question #4:

4. What do you estimate your "cost" to receive those offers?

I'd really like to see a straight answer.

MR.OG, Thanks for jumping in. I do not play BJ and, for me, I do not have the patience or aptitude for card counting, and with multi-deck shoes in play, it would seem a daunting task at best. I do not know what a "flashing dealer" is, so since I don't play card games with the exception above, that point, for me, is moot.

I agree with your premise of cashing in what you get, not playing for comps, and being over-comped. Three nights plus F & B and free play provides a great fun staycation for free. My additional "cost" i.e., play is just business as usual with an opportunity for possible profit without stress.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

"Advantage play," I believe, is a result of casino offers to patrons in the forms of free slot play and/or free table play. It is NOT, I believe, actual gaming play, strategy, or systems employed by a player. Therefore, the "advantage player" is one who receives and uses the offers (free money) to play and hopefully win without diving into his/her own bankroll.

link to original post

There are many pieces of the puzzle.

Some plays are positive without marketing bonuses. (Think about playing poker against drunken suckers who call anything.)

I use a different definition, which relies on three parts:

• A play, which results in a trend to increase bankroll
• A bankroll sufficient to effect the play and absorb the variance
• The ability to make the play and cash out

Yes, bonuses and incentives can be a part of the overall advantage. Some people want a hotel room and dinner, and regard 4 hours of barely losing at a gambling table to be a significantly discounted price to pay for the hotel room and dinner. ("I lost $100, but that's cheaper than the $600 I would have otherwise paid for what I got!")

I can't tell you what machine to play, because I don't know what your choices are. (Knowing absolutely nothing else, there is probably a deuces wild video poker game that is a reasonable choice. 5 play, 25 cent is probably suitable for your playroll.)

General advice: your money lasts longer if you spend less of it. If you hate what you're doing, find something else to do.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Tuttigym I love your question #4:

4. What do you estimate your "cost" to receive those offers?

I'd really like to see a straight answer.
link to original post

You are skeptical because you don't understand how to achieve the offers people discuss on here at profit.

You ask a straight question but a straight answer isn't available.

Each property is different. On average though, I consider a 300% return on my investment good. 500% excellent and doable.

200% return is if I really have nowhere else better.

I have had 1000% and better returns but those are rare and don't last too long. I haven't seen a situation like that in about eight years.

EDIT; I am speaking of comp hustling not other plays I don't deal with. And some posters on here may disagree and say 1000% return on comp hustling is still ongoing. Remember, like I said, it differs property to property which is why your question doesn't allow a "straight" answer.

It's like asking how cold does the weather get. Well, where? Florida or Alaska? You aren't going to get a straight answer to a generalized question like that.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Tuttigym I love your question #4:

4. What do you estimate your "cost" to receive those offers?

I'd really like to see a straight answer.
link to original post

Inquiring minds, Mr. Mendelson, inquiring minds. We have many prolific posters that provide chatter, strong opinions, tales of triumph and woe, bragging and crying, trip reports and sessions. It would be great to hear from them and even some of the mods including Mr. W.

We shall see.

tuttigym

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Tuttigym I love your question #4:

4. What do you estimate your "cost" to receive those offers?

I'd really like to see a straight answer.
link to original post

You are skeptical because you don't understand how to achieve the offers people discuss on here at profit.

You ask a straight question but a straight answer isn't available.

Each property is different. On average though, I consider a 300% return on my investment good. 500% excellent and doable.

200% return is if I really have nowhere else better.

I have had 1000% and better returns but those are rare and don't last too long. I haven't seen a situation like that in about eight years.

EDIT; I am speaking of comp hustling not other plays I don't deal with. And some posters on here may disagree and say 1000% return on comp hustling is still ongoing. Remember, like I said, it differs property to property which is why your question doesn't allow a "straight" answer.

It's like asking how cold does the weather get. Well, where? Florida or Alaska? You aren't going to get a straight answer to a generalized question like that.
link to original post

You made my point. No one gives a straight answer.

Quote: Dieter

There are many pieces of the puzzle.

I use a different definition, which relies on three parts:

• A play, which results in a trend to increase bankroll
• A bankroll sufficient to effect the play and absorb the variance
• The ability to make the play and cash out

Mr. Dieter: This is a spectacular and, IMHO, accurate definition. It says it all, is doable, and should be shouted from the casino penthouses across the globe for all to absorb, remember, and practice.

BRAVO!!

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AlanMendelson

Tuttigym I love your question #4:

4. What do you estimate your "cost" to receive those offers?

I'd really like to see a straight answer.
link to original post

Inquiring minds, Mr. Mendelson, inquiring minds. We have many prolific posters that provide chatter, strong opinions, tales of triumph and woe, bragging and crying, trip reports and sessions. It would be great to hear from them and even some of the mods including Mr. W.

We shall see.

tuttigym
link to original post

There are formulas for offers and these offers include comps and free play and show up money.

There are also discretionary comps and offers. They have a formula as well.

It's true that these formulas will vary. A player making $100 bets for four hours at Suncoast is going to get different offers than a player making $100 bets for four hours at Caesars Palace.

But there are formulas.

What I question are claims such as getting a continuous stream of free play without using their own money.

I've had instances where I've been given $5000 of free play to entice me to come to a casino -- but if I didnt play up to their expectations I never got another offer like that again.

Comments like "I get a thousand dollars a month of free play" beg the question "how much are you playing to get that thousand dollars a month?"

Hi Mr. Darkoz: Thanks for taking the time with your generous post. I am reading your GN thread with great interest. I am NOT a lawyer, but I do know enough law to make myself semi-dangerous, so I am grateful and absorbed in the story as well as being educated.

What you do and what you are relating is extreme. One might call you a 1%'er in that 99% of the gambling population would never go to the extent of putting together a "team" and then mine their results, with their permission, to effect your AP. You are a professional, and I am confident that there are few like you.

Your advice on the slots is well taken and usually done. I am an old, short, dumpy "Ploppie" and proud of it. Your personal story is fascinating.

If I could ask for one example of "cost" as related to play to offers (free play) from say a Resorts or Ceasars group, that might be interesting to see.

Thanks,
tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Hi Mr. Darkoz: Thanks for taking the time with your generous post. I am reading your GN thread with great interest. I am NOT a lawyer, but I do know enough law to make myself semi-dangerous, so I am grateful and absorbed in the story as well as being educated.

What you do and what you are relating is extreme. One might call you a 1%'er in that 99% of the gambling population would never go to the extent of putting together a "team" and then mine their results, with their permission, to effect your AP. You are a professional, and I am confident that there are few like you.

Your advice on the slots is well taken and usually done. I am an old, short, dumpy "Ploppie" and proud of it. Your personal story is fascinating.

If I could ask for one example of "cost" as related to play to offers (free play) from say a Resorts or Ceasars group, that might be interesting to see.

Thanks,
tuttigym
link to original post

Here is a very unique situation (again when the answer is different depending on location giving what Alan calls a straight answer is ridiculous.).

I explain in detail a move that was for a time only available in NYS. Enjoy and comment.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/35435-a-2nd-ny-ap-move/

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

Hi Mr. Darkoz: Thanks for taking the time with your generous post. I am reading your GN thread with great interest. I am NOT a lawyer, but I do know enough law to make myself semi-dangerous, so I am grateful and absorbed in the story as well as being educated.

What you do and what you are relating is extreme. One might call you a 1%'er in that 99% of the gambling population would never go to the extent of putting together a "team" and then mine their results, with their permission, to effect your AP. You are a professional, and I am confident that there are few like you.

Your advice on the slots is well taken and usually done. I am an old, short, dumpy "Ploppie" and proud of it. Your personal story is fascinating.

If I could ask for one example of "cost" as related to play to offers (free play) from say a Resorts or Ceasars group, that might be interesting to see.

Thanks,
tuttigym
link to original post

Here is a very unique situation (again when the answer is different depending on location giving what Alan calls a straight answer is ridiculous.).

I explain in detail a move that was for a time only available in NYS. Enjoy and comment.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/35435-a-2nd-ny-ap-move/
link to original post

Thank you Darkoz for bringing back this historical post. In particular I am interested in these three paragraphs because these get to the heart of my question and, I think, tuttigym's question:

"For example if there was a $12,500 coin-in required for a certain level of offers, my people would play on a card armed with$10,000 in freeplay vouchers culled from a bunch of different players cards.

Walking in with $10,000 freeplay, leaving with $8,000 cash (and another player's card all setup for the cycle to continue)

Welcome my friends to the Freeplay that never ends."

Those are your three paragraphs and here's the question:

How did you qualify for $10,000 of free play?

If you have not already read it, I highly recommend Comp City by Max Rubin. While most of the plays he talks about are long outdated, I think anyone with an imagination will be able to use the ideas behind them to create their own situations.
Some are APs and will only play if they are at an advantage. Many others can AP a game or two or a situation but also play when they are not at an advantage. I'm in that group. I used to play with an advantage at BJ, and only play video poker with Freeplay but then I'd occasionally play some slots.
If you are happy playing as you do, and since you've said you don't need the money, why risk turning your entertainment into a job you may not like.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

Hi Mr. Darkoz: Thanks for taking the time with your generous post. I am reading your GN thread with great interest. I am NOT a lawyer, but I do know enough law to make myself semi-dangerous, so I am grateful and absorbed in the story as well as being educated.

What you do and what you are relating is extreme. One might call you a 1%'er in that 99% of the gambling population would never go to the extent of putting together a "team" and then mine their results, with their permission, to effect your AP. You are a professional, and I am confident that there are few like you.

Your advice on the slots is well taken and usually done. I am an old, short, dumpy "Ploppie" and proud of it. Your personal story is fascinating.

If I could ask for one example of "cost" as related to play to offers (free play) from say a Resorts or Ceasars group, that might be interesting to see.

Thanks,
tuttigym
link to original post

Here is a very unique situation (again when the answer is different depending on location giving what Alan calls a straight answer is ridiculous.).

I explain in detail a move that was for a time only available in NYS. Enjoy and comment.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/35435-a-2nd-ny-ap-move/
link to original post

Thank you Darkoz for bringing back this historical post. In particular I am interested in these three paragraphs because these get to the heart of my question and, I think, tuttigym's question:

"For example if there was a $12,500 coin-in required for a certain level of offers, my people would play on a card armed with$10,000 in freeplay vouchers culled from a bunch of different players cards.

Walking in with $10,000 freeplay, leaving with $8,000 cash (and another player's card all setup for the cycle to continue)

Welcome my friends to the Freeplay that never ends."

Those are your three paragraphs and here's the question:

How did you qualify for $10,000 of free play?
link to original post

It's literally answered in the post.

Multicarding multicarding multicarding!!!!!!!!

Quote: darkoz

It's literally answered in the post.

Multicarding multicarding multicarding!!!!!!!!
link to original post

Fair caution to the ambitious beginner:
It's as simple as that, but probably not as easy as that.

Best of luck in your endeavours.

Quote: billryan

If you are happy playing as you do, and since you've said you don't need the money, why risk turning your entertainment into a job you may not like.
link to original post

Exactly. What puzzles me is if and when I might post my personal successes, why so some here feel it compulsory to conclude that I should become a "professional" and just pocket huge amounts of $$$ and live a lifestyle they fantasize about? I am extremely comfortable in who I am.

tuttigym

Mr. Mendelson: I know and don't care about casino formulas for free play. There are a number of forum patrons that continuously tout their AP. I am hopeful that some of them will provide us with their experience and "cost" of receiving those offers. The inference I get from some is that they do not use their own personal $$$ to play; they just get offers and win.

Mr. Darkoz is truly the exception in a class by himself. He did his homework, produced a strategy, put in place a "marketing" system, assumed risk, and went to work. My guess is that he would be a success at any endeavor with that kind of commitment and focus.

tuttigym

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

Hi Mr. Darkoz: Thanks for taking the time with your generous post. I am reading your GN thread with great interest. I am NOT a lawyer, but I do know enough law to make myself semi-dangerous, so I am grateful and absorbed in the story as well as being educated.

What you do and what you are relating is extreme. One might call you a 1%'er in that 99% of the gambling population would never go to the extent of putting together a "team" and then mine their results, with their permission, to effect your AP. You are a professional, and I am confident that there are few like you.

Your advice on the slots is well taken and usually done. I am an old, short, dumpy "Ploppie" and proud of it. Your personal story is fascinating.

If I could ask for one example of "cost" as related to play to offers (free play) from say a Resorts or Ceasars group, that might be interesting to see.

Thanks,
tuttigym
link to original post

Here is a very unique situation (again when the answer is different depending on location giving what Alan calls a straight answer is ridiculous.).

I explain in detail a move that was for a time only available in NYS. Enjoy and comment.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/35435-a-2nd-ny-ap-move/
link to original post

Thank you Darkoz for bringing back this historical post. In particular I am interested in these three paragraphs because these get to the heart of my question and, I think, tuttigym's question:

"For example if there was a $12,500 coin-in required for a certain level of offers, my people would play on a card armed with$10,000 in freeplay vouchers culled from a bunch of different players cards.

Walking in with $10,000 freeplay, leaving with $8,000 cash (and another player's card all setup for the cycle to continue)

Welcome my friends to the Freeplay that never ends."

Those are your three paragraphs and here's the question:

How did you qualify for $10,000 of free play?
link to original post

It's literally answered in the post.

Multicarding multicarding multicarding!!!!!!!!
link to original post

I guess I'm stupid because I dont see the literal answers.

I play at Red Rock with a monthly Video Poker budget of about $600 a month. My coin in is much higher, of course, because I have my share of winning hands.

My free play is $15, six times per month. Plus my cashback is about $40 a month.

I am mostly a craps player but there is no free play for craps, so I'm just giving you my VP play.

I know what it takes to get about $90 of free play plus $40 of cashback at Red Rock.

What I dont know is how much play you have to give to get $10,000 of free play to power your perpetual free play machine.

I understand that new signups get free play but most of these free play sign ups are $5 or $10 unless you're lucky enough to spin a wheel for perhaps $100 or $500.

So, based on my own 40+ years of casino gambling (I'm two weeks away from being 70) I'd like to know how much previous play is needed that you can get $10k of free play routinely?

Since I do have a basic understanding that free play for returning players is only a small percentage of coin in, I'd appreciate a straight answer.

By the way, I've done marketing work for three major casino companies.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

Hi Mr. Darkoz: Thanks for taking the time with your generous post. I am reading your GN thread with great interest. I am NOT a lawyer, but I do know enough law to make myself semi-dangerous, so I am grateful and absorbed in the story as well as being educated.

What you do and what you are relating is extreme. One might call you a 1%'er in that 99% of the gambling population would never go to the extent of putting together a "team" and then mine their results, with their permission, to effect your AP. You are a professional, and I am confident that there are few like you.

Your advice on the slots is well taken and usually done. I am an old, short, dumpy "Ploppie" and proud of it. Your personal story is fascinating.

If I could ask for one example of "cost" as related to play to offers (free play) from say a Resorts or Ceasars group, that might be interesting to see.

Thanks,
tuttigym
link to original post

Here is a very unique situation (again when the answer is different depending on location giving what Alan calls a straight answer is ridiculous.).

I explain in detail a move that was for a time only available in NYS. Enjoy and comment.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/35435-a-2nd-ny-ap-move/
link to original post

Thank you Darkoz for bringing back this historical post. In particular I am interested in these three paragraphs because these get to the heart of my question and, I think, tuttigym's question:

"For example if there was a $12,500 coin-in required for a certain level of offers, my people would play on a card armed with$10,000 in freeplay vouchers culled from a bunch of different players cards.

Walking in with $10,000 freeplay, leaving with $8,000 cash (and another player's card all setup for the cycle to continue)

Welcome my friends to the Freeplay that never ends."

Those are your three paragraphs and here's the question:

How did you qualify for $10,000 of free play?
link to original post

It's literally answered in the post.

Multicarding multicarding multicarding!!!!!!!!
link to original post

By the way, I've done marketing work for three major casino companies.
link to original post

This is precisely why Advantage Players can get away with taking advantage of comps. The marketing personnel almost never have a clue or are able to figure it out on their own.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

Hi Mr. Darkoz: Thanks for taking the time with your generous post. I am reading your GN thread with great interest. I am NOT a lawyer, but I do know enough law to make myself semi-dangerous, so I am grateful and absorbed in the story as well as being educated.

What you do and what you are relating is extreme. One might call you a 1%'er in that 99% of the gambling population would never go to the extent of putting together a "team" and then mine their results, with their permission, to effect your AP. You are a professional, and I am confident that there are few like you.

Your advice on the slots is well taken and usually done. I am an old, short, dumpy "Ploppie" and proud of it. Your personal story is fascinating.

If I could ask for one example of "cost" as related to play to offers (free play) from say a Resorts or Ceasars group, that might be interesting to see.

Thanks,
tuttigym
link to original post

Here is a very unique situation (again when the answer is different depending on location giving what Alan calls a straight answer is ridiculous.).

I explain in detail a move that was for a time only available in NYS. Enjoy and comment.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/35435-a-2nd-ny-ap-move/
link to original post

Thank you Darkoz for bringing back this historical post. In particular I am interested in these three paragraphs because these get to the heart of my question and, I think, tuttigym's question:

"For example if there was a $12,500 coin-in required for a certain level of offers, my people would play on a card armed with$10,000 in freeplay vouchers culled from a bunch of different players cards.

Walking in with $10,000 freeplay, leaving with $8,000 cash (and another player's card all setup for the cycle to continue)

Welcome my friends to the Freeplay that never ends."

Those are your three paragraphs and here's the question:

How did you qualify for $10,000 of free play?
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It's literally answered in the post.

Multicarding multicarding multicarding!!!!!!!!
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By the way, I've done marketing work for three major casino companies.
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This is precisely why Advantage Players can get away with taking advantage of comps. The marketing personnel almost never have a clue or are able to figure it out on their own.
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Never can get a straight answer. Of course there might not be a straight answer when things are too contrived.

This hasnt been a question about a "special play." This has been a question about a simple mathematical return. How much was played? How much free play did it yield?

Were you playing in a casino that offers 0.5% in free play or 0.25% ?

Did you have sign up bonuses for new players?

Was the play on special 10x multiplier days?

Did you have 100 cards with $100 each of accrued free play?

I could come up with perhaps 50 explanations that would give a straight answer because I've seen perhaps 50 real reasons for getting Bonus free play offers. You can't come up with one.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

Hi Mr. Darkoz: Thanks for taking the time with your generous post. I am reading your GN thread with great interest. I am NOT a lawyer, but I do know enough law to make myself semi-dangerous, so I am grateful and absorbed in the story as well as being educated.

What you do and what you are relating is extreme. One might call you a 1%'er in that 99% of the gambling population would never go to the extent of putting together a "team" and then mine their results, with their permission, to effect your AP. You are a professional, and I am confident that there are few like you.

Your advice on the slots is well taken and usually done. I am an old, short, dumpy "Ploppie" and proud of it. Your personal story is fascinating.

If I could ask for one example of "cost" as related to play to offers (free play) from say a Resorts or Ceasars group, that might be interesting to see.

Thanks,
tuttigym
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Here is a very unique situation (again when the answer is different depending on location giving what Alan calls a straight answer is ridiculous.).

I explain in detail a move that was for a time only available in NYS. Enjoy and comment.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/35435-a-2nd-ny-ap-move/
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Thank you Darkoz for bringing back this historical post. In particular I am interested in these three paragraphs because these get to the heart of my question and, I think, tuttigym's question:

"For example if there was a $12,500 coin-in required for a certain level of offers, my people would play on a card armed with$10,000 in freeplay vouchers culled from a bunch of different players cards.

Walking in with $10,000 freeplay, leaving with $8,000 cash (and another player's card all setup for the cycle to continue)

Welcome my friends to the Freeplay that never ends."

Those are your three paragraphs and here's the question:

How did you qualify for $10,000 of free play?
link to original post

It's literally answered in the post.

Multicarding multicarding multicarding!!!!!!!!
link to original post

By the way, I've done marketing work for three major casino companies.
link to original post

This is precisely why Advantage Players can get away with taking advantage of comps. The marketing personnel almost never have a clue or are able to figure it out on their own.
link to original post

Never can get a straight answer. Of course there might not be a straight answer when things are too contrived.

This hasnt been a question about a "special play." This has been a question about a simple mathematical return. How much was played? How much free play did it yield?

Were you playing in a casino that offers 0.5% in free play or 0.25% ?

Did you have sign up bonuses for new players?

Was the play on special 10x multiplier days?

Did you have 100 cards with $100 each of accrued free play?

I could come up with perhaps 50 explanations that would give a straight answer because I've seen perhaps 50 real reasons for getting Bonus free play offers. You can't come up with one.
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It's definitely a special play because you admit working for marketing previously and can't figure it out.

I have already answered you that each property has its own formulas.

If I tell you a formula involving say percentage of payback guess what? It doesn't work everywhere. It works only at the specific casinos I have identified it works at.

So you want me to tell you how to get the offers. Then you will go to XYZ casino in Vegas, do what I described, then say "Aha, Darkoz lied, it didn't work" and meanwhile I just told you it works different for each property.

The basic thing I do is use techniques to determine what EACH PROPERTY formula entails.

I can figure out the exact details of any casino comp formula. But that doesn't mean it's beatable. I have spent money on properties to only find out the formula they use is awful and I need to move on. (Also, formulas in a property themselves change and sometimes it's time to move on).

It's also more than just understanding how to get the offers but keeping them going. And that includes determining heat at the property. Having great offers that get pin locked if you take them does no good.

You are asking for the formula and I keep telling you there is no one single formula. So I don't know what more I can help you with.

Never a straight answer.

I rest my case.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Never a straight answer.

I rest my case.
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No you don't rest your case, you lose your case.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Never a straight answer.

I rest my case.
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No you don't rest your case, you lose your case.
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Okay. I lost. You win.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Never a straight answer.

I rest my case.
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No you don't rest your case, you lose your case.
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Okay. I lost. You win.
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I'm glad you recognize that.

Seriously, I have tried to give you straightforward simple answers.

It seems you demand a specific PROPERTY, say Ceasars Palace and you want me to divulge the specific formula to get great comps there, so you can get them yourself.

And you expect this info distributed on an open forum and at no cost to you.

You probably will get the secret formula for coke a cola faster but you probably don't believe they have a secret formula because you can't get a straight answer to their process either.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Never a straight answer.

I rest my case.
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You know Alan, I understand Mr Oz perfectly, it took a few years, but his latest series of articles is pretty self explanatory..

Quote: AlanMendelson

My free play is $15, six times per month. Plus my cashback is about $40 a month.

I am mostly a craps player but there is no free play for craps, so I'm just giving you my VP play.
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OK, way out of town, not a particularly good rewards program:
$400,000 in cash funded coin-in per year gets $5200 in freeplay per year ($100/week) (restrictions apply), plus some ancillary benefits, some of which may have a cash value.
Point multiplier days and careful game selection can reduce the coin-in requirements substantially.
There are other promotions which may stack, so meeting the quarterly coin-in requirement to continue the freeplay may also qualify for other benefits (like an extra $50 freeplay on the days of sufficient coin-in).

I don't think this particular system is AP'able under ordinary circumstances. I doubt I'm burning anything (it is published on their website).

So if I play 2,000 hands per trip of $1.25/hand VP on 160 trips to the casino, or $2,500 of coin-in per trip, I'll meet the $400K/yr coin-in suggestion assuming 1X multiplier days only. If there's 98% payback, that would be an $8K loss for the year, or 8x $1,000 Royal Flushes missing to make up the difference. With $5,200 in free play, I'd be at a $2,800 loss for the year, except I need cash back on that free play and I'll likely just spend it on extra hands of VP so I'll be down $8,000 anyway.

Quote: ChumpChange

So if I play 2,000 hands per trip of $1.25/hand VP on 160 trips to the casino, or $2,500 of coin-in per trip, I'll meet the $400K/yr coin-in suggestion assuming 1X multiplier days only. If there's 98% payback, that would be an $8K loss for the year, or 8x $1,000 Royal Flushes missing to make up the difference. With $5,200 in free play, I'd be at a $2,800 loss for the year, except I need cash back on that free play and I'll likely just spend it on extra hands of VP so I'll be down $8,000 anyway.
link to original post

That amount of play would get you a lot of free meals at places like Emerald Island or El Cortez.

Quote: ChumpChange

So if I play 2,000 hands per trip of $1.25/hand VP on 160 trips to the casino, or $2,500 of coin-in per trip, I'll meet the $400K/yr coin-in suggestion assuming 1X multiplier days only. If there's 98% payback, that would be an $8K loss for the year, or 8x $1,000 Royal Flushes missing to make up the difference. With $5,200 in free play, I'd be at a $2,800 loss for the year, except I need cash back on that free play and I'll likely just spend it on extra hands of VP so I'll be down $8,000 anyway.
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Like I said... I don't think THIS scheme is particularly vulnerable, and I don't recommend a special detour unless you need a chip or a license plate for your collection.

Quote: ChumpChange

So if I play 2,000 hands per trip of $1.25/hand VP on 160 trips to the casino, or $2,500 of coin-in per trip, I'll meet the $400K/yr coin-in suggestion assuming 1X multiplier days only. If there's 98% payback, that would be an $8K loss for the year, or 8x $1,000 Royal Flushes missing to make up the difference. With $5,200 in free play, I'd be at a $2,800 loss for the year, except I need cash back on that free play and I'll likely just spend it on extra hands of VP so I'll be down $8,000 anyway.
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This is reality, Chumpchange and thank you.

More reality: playing $400,000 of coin in at a 99% return is a loss of $4,000 and that's assuming royal flushes are hit on schedule.

If that yields $5200 of free play how does Darkoz get his $10,000 for his perpetual free play machine?

These paragraphs from Darkoz are what I question:

"For example if there was a $12,500 coin-in required for a certain level of offers, my people would play on a card armed with$10,000 in freeplay vouchers culled from a bunch of different players cards.

Walking in with $10,000 freeplay, leaving with $8,000 cash (and another player's card all setup for the cycle to continue)

Welcome my friends to the Freeplay that never ends."

Quote: ChumpChange

So if I play 2,000 hands per trip of $1.25/hand VP on 160 trips to the casino, or $2,500 of coin-in per trip, I'll meet the $400K/yr coin-in suggestion assuming 1X multiplier days only. If there's 98% payback, that would be an $8K loss for the year, or 8x $1,000 Royal Flushes missing to make up the difference. With $5,200 in free play, I'd be at a $2,800 loss for the year, except I need cash back on that free play and I'll likely just spend it on extra hands of VP so I'll be down $8,000 anyway.
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This might be AP'able but not in the method described.

FYI, multiplier days are good for points on your card but Theo is never a part of that.

For example, if there was a 10X multiplier, your Theo is not multiplied by ten and your subsequent offers are not multiplied either. All offers are generally calculated on base Theo.

For that reason, I totally ignore multiplier days. In fact they can be detrimental to what I do.

Quote: billryan

Quote: ChumpChange

So if I play 2,000 hands per trip of $1.25/hand VP on 160 trips to the casino, or $2,500 of coin-in per trip, I'll meet the $400K/yr coin-in suggestion assuming 1X multiplier days only. If there's 98% payback, that would be an $8K loss for the year, or 8x $1,000 Royal Flushes missing to make up the difference. With $5,200 in free play, I'd be at a $2,800 loss for the year, except I need cash back on that free play and I'll likely just spend it on extra hands of VP so I'll be down $8,000 anyway.
link to original post

That amount of play would get you a lot of free meals at places like Emerald Island or El Cortez.
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$15 meals each trip for free? That's 30% of the $50 HA per day at 98% payback on $2,500 coin-in.
If I come in on multiplier days I can rack up more extra meals or more expensive meals.

But at my local casino I need to coin-in $6 to get 1 penny, so to get 1,500 points I'd need a coin-in of $9,000.
I got to 2,000 points, so I went to the Club Counter to upgrade my card and they said I don't qualify because 1,000 of those points were just for checking the kiosk on 2 days (free $5 of points per trip). They said to keep gambling and come back when my gambling points hit 2,000. The kiosk will not tell me when that is, it only tells me total points whether earned or won. Higher card statuses get multiplier days, my card status doesn't. So I have to coin-in $12,000 to get to the next card level, and I can take my $5 in points to get a slice of pizza or a cookie at the food court.

Quote: ChumpChange

Quote: billryan

Quote: ChumpChange

So if I play 2,000 hands per trip of $1.25/hand VP on 160 trips to the casino, or $2,500 of coin-in per trip, I'll meet the $400K/yr coin-in suggestion assuming 1X multiplier days only. If there's 98% payback, that would be an $8K loss for the year, or 8x $1,000 Royal Flushes missing to make up the difference. With $5,200 in free play, I'd be at a $2,800 loss for the year, except I need cash back on that free play and I'll likely just spend it on extra hands of VP so I'll be down $8,000 anyway.
link to original post

That amount of play would get you a lot of free meals at places like Emerald Island or El Cortez.
link to original post

$15 meals each trip for free? That's 30% of the $50 HA per day at 98% payback on $2,500 coin-in.
If I come in on multiplier days I can rack up more extra meals or more expensive meals.

But at my local casino I need to coin-in $6 to get 1 penny, so to get 1,500 points I'd need a coin-in of $9,000.
I got to 2,000 points, so I went to the Club Counter to upgrade my card and they said I don't qualify because 1,000 of those points were just for checking the kiosk on 2 days (free $5 of points per trip). They said to keep gambling and come back when my gambling points hit 2,000. The kiosk will not tell me when that is, it only tells me total points whether earned or won. Higher card statuses get multiplier days, my card status doesn't. So I have to coin-in $12,000 to get to the next card level, and I can take my $5 in points to get a slice of pizza or a cookie at the food court.
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Well if you look at my post above I mention that multiplier days or in your case free points can be detrimental.

It's precisely because they can be misleading.

Only base points really are Good for anything.

Chumpchange I get it. Your numbers are real.

If you rack up $100 in points on a 1X multiplier day, I assume you can trade that in for a $100 hotel room. If you rack up $100 in points on a 5X multiplier day, that'd be $500 in apparent points. Could you get a $500 hotel room, or a $100 hotel room for 5 days on those points?

I believe the Mendelson vs Darkoz debate is apples and oranges. The DO offer system was produced by race track casinos in NY which apparently was incredibly generous and was a pyramid scheme of sorts which, at the time, was legal. Mr. Mendelson is trying to draw a parallel with Vegas casinos and their offer methods which are very tight. So my two questions are: (1) Is my analysis correct Mr. Darkoz? and (2) Could one get those same offers in Vegas today or accumulate the $10,000 of free play as you previously described in your NY thread and set up a similar legal syndicate of like-minded players?

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

So my two questions are: (1) Is my analysis correct Mr. Darkoz? and (2) Could one get those same offers in Vegas today or accumulate the $10,000 of free play as you previously described in your NY thread and set up a similar legal syndicate of like-minded players?

tuttigym
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The phrase "I can neither confirm nor deny..." would be appropriate in reply, if we can get talking crickets.

Quote: tuttigym

I believe the Mendelson vs Darkoz debate is apples and oranges. The DO offer system was produced by race track casinos in NY which apparently was incredibly generous and was a pyramid scheme of sorts which, at the time, was legal. Mr. Mendelson is trying to draw a parallel with Vegas casinos and their offer methods which are very tight. So my two questions are: (1) Is my analysis correct Mr. Darkoz? and (2) Could one get those same offers in Vegas today or accumulate the $10,000 of free play as you previously described in your NY thread and set up a similar legal syndicate of like-minded players?

tuttigym
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1) I don't consider it a pyramid scheme. It was taking advantage of how the system for offers worked in NYS.

2). I don't do Vegas so I am not the one to answer. I have had or currently have similar operations in Atlantic City, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Mississippi and Florida.

However those don't involve vouchers for freeplay so the precise methods are different. But having my team hit casinos for large sums of Freeplay is good in quite a few locales.

Quote: tuttigym

I believe the Mendelson vs Darkoz debate is apples and oranges. The DO offer system was produced by race track casinos in NY which apparently was incredibly generous and was a pyramid scheme of sorts which, at the time, was legal. Mr. Mendelson is trying to draw a parallel with Vegas casinos and their offer methods which are very tight. So my two questions are: (1) Is my analysis correct Mr. Darkoz? and (2) Could one get those same offers in Vegas today or accumulate the $10,000 of free play as you previously described in your NY thread and set up a similar legal syndicate of like-minded players?

tuttigym
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There are dozens of multi-card crews in Vegas. I don't have any real evidence but I'd guess there are a few hundred individuals who make a living off of multi-carding. There may be more multi-carders operating in Vegas than full-time card counters.

Quote: tuttigym

1. With $50 in slot play, which machine would you play and at what denomination level?
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As a non-AP who plays pretty much the same as you do, I don’t have answers for some of the questions. But I do have an answer for this one, plus one more bit of advice.

1) $3000 over 3-4 days is 6 sessions of $500. If you want to shoot for a win that will carry you through a session, take your $50 to a $5x2 Wheel of Fortune machine. You get 5 shots, plus whatever cherries or mixed bar hits, at a spin. These machines are usually close to the top payback slots in the casino. (Alternately, if all you want is some fun, just put it in your favorite machine.)

2) If you play 3 Card, keep an eye out for flashing dealers. They aren’t as common as they used to be, but they’re out there. When you get a favorable look, play your hand blind. You don’t need to go full out AP for this one, just watch the dealer. Also, knowing a dealer card doesn’t guarantee a win. You can still get smacked around. It happens.

That’s it. Good luck.

With $50 in Freeplay, I'm playing $2 video blackjack.

Quote: billryan

With $50 in Freeplay, I'm playing $2 video blackjack.
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Yes, actually this is the best choice in my opinion. You will get back on average a 99% return.

The only issue is some casinos disallow freeplay use on video blackjack so be prepared to have a slot machine choice as backup

Quote: darkoz

1) I don't consider it a pyramid scheme. It was taking advantage of how the system for offers worked in NYS.

Perhaps a poor choice of word description. I did say legal, though, and combining offers through multi-carding does create a $$$ "pile."

Quote: darkoz

2). I don't do Vegas so I am not the one to answer. I have had or currently have similar operations in Atlantic City, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Mississippi and Florida.

However those don't involve vouchers for freeplay so the precise methods are different. But having my team hit casinos for large sums of Freeplay is good in quite a few locales.
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I find that remarkable. Here is what puzzles me: The casino business is quite saturated, I believe, so that the costs of customer acquisition is not cheap. In order to lure and retain patrons, casinos give offers but only to players and customers who have been or are currently "active." That "activity" begets offers commensurate with their play, i.e., "cost." Is that still true? If so, how does one deal with those costs (play) and, using an example of $100 free play, how much might that "cost" be?

Are the casinos so unsophisticated that they just allow the multi-carding play without challenging crew members somehow?

tuttigym

Mr. Mosca: Thanks for the advice on the slot. I will look for one next trip and play it as directed. I do not know what a "flashing" dealer is, but since I only play the Pair Plus, the hand that the dealer has is of no consequence to me. I cannot lose to the house's cards only to my non-performing hand.

What exactly is AP for 3 Card with the exception of a "flashing" dealer? Again, thank you.

tuttigym