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Wizard
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Wizard
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Mission146
May 2nd, 2021 at 4:05:17 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

I believe NGCB 14.040.5

It used to be 14.040.2(b).

For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game.



Thank you.

It looks to be 14.040.5 (page 8).

Quote: Regulation 14.040.5

For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability
of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability
of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game.

It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
CrystalMath
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Mission146
May 2nd, 2021 at 5:34:28 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Itís going to make you more mad when a Keno game is gaffed to look like it would pay in the high-90ís if the special feature actually corresponded to natural probabilities.

Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime.



Yes. This game is opening that door.
I heart Crystal Math.
onenickelmiracle
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Mission146
May 2nd, 2021 at 6:49:40 AM permalink
Quote:

The shall choose 20 numbers, without replacement, from 1 to 80.


typo

Quote:

If the ball draw by the game matches one of the three numbers marked by a bomb, then that bomb shall explode. After the explosion, one to three fragments will land on one of the 57 numbers not chosen by the game or marked with a bomb.


Bombs can't land on bombs confirmed by this statement. I find this sentence confusing following the sentence before, because "drawn" is right above "draw".

Quote: rule screen pic

A maximum of 9 fragments can appear in a single game
Explosions and fragments are evaluated after all numbers are drawn...
Wins are shown in credits unless marked as currency.



Bombs cannot land on marked numbers, correct? Fragments cannot land on marked numbers, correct? This is why "explosions and fragments are evaluated after all numbers are drawn".

This post event evaluation is common wording on some slot machines which require it, cannot think of an example. I believe usually to do with pays, just so small pays aren't awarded in addition to a larger and improved pay by some game feature. I find the phrase fair and excusable, though an extra or hidden meaning could exist. I'm doubtful.

Does the game force you to bet in even amounts of credits or is the player not paid fully with half credits?


Quote:

The following table shows an example pay table. Note that many pays end in 0.5. To keep the total pays in round numbers, the player must bet an even number of coins.


Same question as above.

Quote:

It should be noted the first rule screen says, "Explosions and fragments are evaluated after all numbers are drawn." While this is open to interpretation, it suggests to me everything that goes on with the bombs is determined independently and not necessarily by the random draw of balls.

Maybe. There would be 20 balls drawn to account for hitting the numbers and 3 for the bombs, unless the bombs cut into the 20 to make it 17 for numbers and 3 for bombs. You have to test play to see if the bombs are...I'm going to keep this train of thought here...I looked at the pictures and the bombs do correspond to drawn numbers. This is screwy and complex. So it isn't just getting 3 of 20, it is representing getting 3/14 for a 6 spot. I see the wording now being strange and not innocent as I assumed. Why are they even correlating the drawn numbers with the bombs for explosions, if that's not how the game is really working? I see the entire point now I have read this completely. Are the bombs matching the drawn numbers what causes them to explode or what places them on the board? Maybe I am thinking this because I haven't slept in over 24 hours, but can you play the game again and just test the first stage of the game for being legit with a 2 spot before the bombs come into play?
ThatDonGuy
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Mission146gordonm888
May 2nd, 2021 at 8:33:58 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thank you.

It looks to be 14.040.5 (page 8).


And it appears that the 20 balls being drawn do have an equal chance of being any of the C(80,20) ways to do it. Since drawing the numbers for the bombs has nothing to do with "live" Keno, I don't think the way those three numbers are selected has to be uniformly random to comply with the regulation. See my earlier comment about the "free ride card" in MultiStrike Poker for a similar case.

Here's a question: once a bomb releases fragments, do the numbers that the fragments have to land on have to be uniformly random?
CrystalMath
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Mission146
May 2nd, 2021 at 9:37:27 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy


Here's a question: once a bomb releases fragments, do the numbers that the fragments have to land on have to be uniformly random?



I would say yes, and the Wizard also made this assumption. But, I donít trust anything on this game to work fairly.

I found this in a NGCB notice:

ď Gaming devices which do not utilize elements commonly used in live games may alter the probability of game elements appearing in a winning or losing combination in a bonus game if it is clear to the patron that a change has been made.Ē

This game uses elements commonly used in live games, so this does not apply.
I heart Crystal Math.
SOOPOO
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Mission146
May 2nd, 2021 at 10:04:24 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

I would say yes, and the Wizard also made this assumption. But, I donít trust anything on this game to work fairly.

I found this in a NGCB notice:

ď Gaming devices which do not utilize elements commonly used in live games may alter the probability of game elements appearing in a winning or losing combination in a bonus game if it is clear to the patron that a change has been made.Ē

This game uses elements commonly used in live games, so this does not apply.

. You are the expert. Iím a layman. But once you introduce Ďbombs and fragmentsí they can argue those are NOT elements commonly used in live games.

I know Axel must be salivating..... the question for you guys is this.... has this gaffe left a player advantage, and if so, what is the best way to exploit it?
CrystalMath
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Mission146
May 2nd, 2021 at 10:40:23 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

. You are the expert. Iím a layman. But once you introduce Ďbombs and fragmentsí they can argue those are NOT elements commonly used in live games.

I know Axel must be salivating..... the question for you guys is this.... has this gaffe left a player advantage, and if so, what is the best way to exploit it?



Thatís where I see the fault in the rule. Where do you draw the line? I think most people would expect them to be randomly distributed because itís a keno grid. This game, however, has also altered the initial distribution of the 20 balls, which are elements used in live games.

Iíve designed maybe 50 keno games and it would never cross my mind to do something like this. If they need more explosions, have 4 bombs or increase the average number of fragments, but donít alter natural probabilities.
I heart Crystal Math.
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Mission146
May 2nd, 2021 at 11:18:06 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Where do you draw the line?



Its all about what the gaming control board approves, and they know everything about every game that goes into their casinos... or am i wrong to assume that?

how about artificial intelligence in a table card game?

https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1045&context=glj

Quote:

When Shuffle Master submitted the game Dealer Bluff Six Card Poker for
approval, the Gaming Control Board warned the manufacturer that the game
might violate the text of NRS 465.075.99 The problem was that Dealer Bluff
included a small element of artificial intelligence, designed to make it more
interesting for players.100 The Gaming Control Board and Nevada Gaming
Commission described the game as fair,101 and maybe fairer because of the
artificial intelligence element.102

ThatDonGuy
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Mission146CrystalMath
May 2nd, 2021 at 11:51:24 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

I would say yes, and the Wizard also made this assumption. But, I donít trust anything on this game to work fairly.

I found this in a NGCB notice:

ď Gaming devices which do not utilize elements commonly used in live games may alter the probability of game elements appearing in a winning or losing combination in a bonus game if it is clear to the patron that a change has been made.Ē

This game uses elements commonly used in live games, so this does not apply.


It's also not "in a bonus game."

Somebody who's in Vegas (or anywhere else where there's a machine with this game) needs to scan the help/payout screens and see if any probabilities are mentioned.
Keeneone
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Mission146
May 2nd, 2021 at 12:22:42 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

It's also not "in a bonus game."

Somebody who's in Vegas (or anywhere else where there's a machine with this game) needs to scan the help/payout screens and see if any probabilities are mentioned.


The Wizard did include some photos of the help screen here:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/keno/keno-explosion/

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