The only time I am aware of that...
Craps is the only game where the player and not the dealer controls the outcome
BJ (shoe dealt) is the only game where odds can change as the game progresses, even if you do not know why
Big 6/8 is the only bet where you get worse odds for the same outcome on the same table for the same results at the same time
BJ is the only time where you can add to your bet when you know the odds are in yoru favor (split/double)
Sports-betting is the only bet where the price can change for the same outcome
How many of these are there in a casino?
Quote: AZDuffmanI find it fun that some bets are uniqe in a casino. For example:
Craps is the only game where the player and not the dealer controls the outcome
BJ (shoe dealt) is the only game where odds can change as the game progresses, even if you do not know why
Big 6/8 is the only bet where you get worse odds for the same outcome on the same table for the same results at the same time
BJ is the only time where you can add to your bet when you know the odds are in yoru favor (split/double)
Sports-betting is the only bet where the price can change for the same outcome
How many of these are there in a casino?
Actually, in craps, neither the dealer nor the player controls the outcome. Dice control strategies notwithstanding, the DEALER could throw the dice and the same overall results would be achieved. For that matter, the dice could be extruded from the anus of an African pygmy goat hung suspended ten feet above the crap table, and it STILL wouldn't make any difference.
You could definitely say that the player and not the dealer controls the outcome of blackjack, and indeed any table game where the player makes a meaningful decision (excluding baccarat, because the player's only decision--which side to bet on--has no effect on the OUTCOME).
BTW, Big 6/8 has a useful function--it identifies the biggest idiots at the table. That could be why the casinos still have it on the layout--that would be useful information.
You can increase your bet when you have the advantage in many Hold Em based table games as well. It could also be said that betting the don't and taking odds after a point is established qualifies in that regard.
I took AZ's meaning to be that if you are at a standard Craps table, the game does not happen if the player does not throw the dice. That whole pygmy goat thing would be a different kind of crap.
There are other ways to get different odds for the same outcome (the assumption here is the same amount is bet that a specific event will occur) - buy vs place, hop 7 vs any 7, horn vs C&E. What about games like 3 Card Poker where you have the choice of making a second bet that has a diffent payout?
Is Craps the only game where a player can be cheered for a good result? I know BJ players can be chastised for "incorrect" play, but are they ever applauded for taking the correct cards?
You can add to your don't pass bet after a point is established. The odds are in your favor that you'll win, however the bet itself has no EV.
How about Let It Ride is the only game where you can reduce your bet after the outcome has been partially revealed?
Quote: mkl654321For that matter, the dice could be extruded from the anus of an African pygmy goat hung suspended ten feet above the crap table, and it STILL wouldn't make any difference.
Harrah's just announced on their website that their Las Vegas casinos will be implementing this new system shortly. CEO Gary Loveman is quoted as saying "We want our tables to reflect our comp system, and it will give a new spin on classic game."
Quote: seattlediceHow about Let It Ride is the only game where you can reduce your bet after the outcome has been partially revealed?
Actually, don't most casinos allow you to remove a Don't Pass bet after a point has been established?
Yes, but I would argue that the outcome has not been revealed, even partially. The probablity of winning has changed since the bet was originally placed, although removing a DP bet after the point is established is another potentially idiot revealing move because you've made it past the come out roll and the odds are now in your favor to varying degrees depending on the point.Quote: TiltpoulActually, don't most casinos allow you to remove a Don't Pass bet after a point has been established?
It's true in Craps that you can take down any bet except a pass line or come bet, but this is not any different from never having made the bet in the first place.
Quote: seattlediceYes, but I would argue that the outcome has not been revealed, even partially. The probablity of winning has changed since the bet was originally placed, although removing a DP bet after the point is established is another potentially idiot revealing move because you've made it past the come out roll and the odds are now in your favor to varying degrees depending on the point.
It's true in Craps that you can take down any bet except a pass line or come bet, but this is not any different from never having made the bet in the first place.
Not trying to argue on here, I do understand your logic. However, once a point has been established, that is essentially "revealing" what number must be rolled in order to win or lose. I've seen some people take down DP bets when the point is 6/8, simply because they are afraid they will be rolled again.
To that measure, Spanish 21 allows you to take back half your bet on a double down when the result has been partially revealed. Surrender on a regular BJ table does the same thing. In all of the cases, there is no action left on the hand, so while you may reduce your bet after the outcome has been partially revealed, you will have no action on the remaining hand.
So to fix your original statement and try to make it more accurate, the line should read:
How about Let It Ride is the only game where you can reduce your bet after the outcome has been partially revealed, while still maintaining action on the hand?
Quote: TiltpoulActually, don't most casinos allow you to remove a Don't Pass bet after a point has been established?
The equivalent move, as compared to let it ride, would be to remove the bet when only one die has been rolled. Of course this can't happen because both dice must be rolled together
It is absolutely an idiot-revealing move because you have the advantage on that bet. People don't realize that there are 6 ways to roll a seven and 5 ways to roll a six or eight. It's not even a question of variance. If you're not going to leave it up there the whole roll, you shouldn't be betting the don't.Quote: seattlediceRemoving a DP bet after the point is established is another potentially idiot revealing move because you've made it past the come out roll and the odds are now in your favor to varying degrees depending on the point.
There is absolutely no reason to take down a DP bet after the point has been established. Laying odds is another story and should be left up to the player and his or her desire for variance/risk.
Quote: seattlediceI like this thread because it highlights features we might be looking for in our gambling experience, other than bet size, odds, HE, and variance, etc.
I took AZ's meaning to be that if you are at a standard Craps table, the game does not happen if the player does not throw the dice. That whole pygmy goat thing would be a different kind of crap.
That is why I started it--seems we can get too hung up on the same old-same old.
Yes, that was my meaning that the player makes the game happen. MLK's comment shows why I have his comments blocked. He seems to be the kind that has to make a smar-@$$ comment about a minor point while missing the spirit of the point entirely.
If he was on ESPN and they said the game was being played on grass he would say "the proper term is a natural surface since there is dirt beneath the grass and cement under astroturf, which affects the game as much as the grass itself."
Quote: AZDuffmanThat is why I started it--seems we can get too hung up on the same old-same old.
Yes, that was my meaning that the player makes the game happen. MLK's comment shows why I have his comments blocked. He seems to be the kind that has to make a smar-@$$ comment about a minor point while missing the spirit of the point entirely.
If he was on ESPN and they said the game was being played on grass he would say "the proper term is a natural surface since there is dirt beneath the grass and cement under astroturf, which affects the game as much as the grass itself."
As far as missing the point goes, AZD seems to have done that, which is the REAL reason he blocks my comments: they go whistling clear over his head:
"Control" of the game of craps is illusory. You fondle the dice and fantasize that you are actually affecting the outcome in some way--this is what makes the game fun for many people. Absent some successful method of dice control, though, it doesn't matter who is throwing the dice---the outcome of the roll will be random.
And if I was on ESPN and made such a comment, it would be correct.
Quote:MLK's comment shows why I have his comments blocked.
He may be articulate and he may also have a dream. But, I think this is stretching things a bit.
Quote: chookQuote:MLK's comment shows why I have his comments blocked.
He may be articulate and he may also have a dream. But, I think this is stretching things a bit.
That's why so many cities have named the main drag through the worst part of town after me.
Quote: mkl654321That's why so many cities have named the main drag through the worst part of town after me.
You're sense of humor is unsettling, and not in a good way. There is the obvious reason why so many highways named MLK often go through the worst part of town.
Quote: pacomartinYou're sense of humor is unsettling, and not in a good way. There is the obvious reason why so many highways named MLK often go through the worst part of town.
Yes. And it's a terrible "reason". Is it any kind of tribute to the man to put his name on a street that goes past junkyards, dive bars, empty tenements, vacant lots filled with debris, and abandoned warehouses?
("You're" sense of humor?)
Quote: mkl654321"Control" of the game of craps is illusory. You fondle the dice and fantasize that you are actually affecting the outcome in some way--this is what makes the game fun for many people. Absent some successful method of dice control, though, it doesn't matter who is throwing the dice---the outcome of the roll will be random.
Archie Karas had a rather successful shot (yes dice control) when he took Binions for roughly 18 million.
Then they added a pad under the felt to make the shot useless and he lost a large portion of it back.
Quote: KeyserArchie Karas had a rather successful shot (yes dice control) when he took Binions for roughly 18 million.
Then they added a pad under the felt to make the shot useless and he lost a large portion of it back.
Karras was an adrenalin junkie who bet immense sums that were too large for even his outsized bankroll. He got lucky for a while. Eventually, as everybody does, he stopped getting lucky.
I doubt very, very much that Karras had a viable dice control method. One, Binion's would have stopped him cold as soon as they detected it ("Please don't set the dice, Mr. Karras"), and two, he was way too undisciplined to use any kind of "method" in his gambling.
Binion's could not have modified the crap game the way you describe without violating about twelve gaming regulations.
Archie was a very successful shooter. Binion consulted the great Jackie Newton at the time regarding Archie.
Jackie was the one that instructed Binions to install the pad below the felt, rendering his spin shot worthless.
Archie was also known for a slide shot where he would let the top dice run free to create the illusion of a random throw. One more thing, Archie didn't just win at Binions, he has a record of successful hits under his belt at other casinos.
For more information, read Jackie Newton's book, "Gentleman Jackie Newton, Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler."
Karras won significant amounts of money. He also lost significant amounts of money. He's been turned into somewhat of a legend because of that, but you have to realize one thing--he made huge bets. The amount he won wasn't actually all that remarkable, given his bet sizes--he was about 400 bets ahead at his zenith. That would be like a $5 bettor being ahead $2000 after several months---unusual, but well inside the realm of possibility.
I don't know who this Jackie Newton person is, but personal anecdotes, no matter how intriguing, aren't the world's most reliable sources of information. In fact, the pad story tands to make me think that he made the entire incident up. It would be interesting if someone who actually worked at Binion's during that time could or would verify it--but I doubt that anyone would--the whole thing sounds apocryphal.
Now THERE's a visual I didn't need...Quote: mkl654321the dice could be extruded from the anus of an African pygmy goat hung suspended ten feet above the crap table, and it STILL wouldn't make any difference.
What about Surrender in BJ?Quote: seattlediceHow about Let It Ride is the only game where you can reduce your bet after the outcome has been partially revealed?
