Roulette dealers

So I never cared until it was brought to my attention:

Can the ACTUAL person ( "the dealer") control where the ball lands?

YES
one person planted the idea with me.
and I took note of the patterns

an employee at my healthcare was a former dealer, she said
most def.. we could BUT it is HIGHly unprofessional,
maybe illegal, looks bad, etc to "ask"
I hinted by saying is it okay to say when I win the dealer wins,
and tip first, she said, they miiight get the hint

NO
2 friends protest this and say there is NO way..
too many factors; the starting point changes, odd bounces,
the dealer spins one way one time/other way next spin ( clockwise, counter clockwise)...
and the key parts..IF they could they have to observe what number you want
and then take that risk..one by saying this, hinted at a YES but
still stood by his answer of NO.

One neutral well, two neutral friends said yes/no either way.
While the one that said yes, seen the dealer call off 5 reds in a row
prior to the spin, and the buddy who said no, explained it away with math.

I say YES and thinks that is why new dealers are constantly rotated ...

so,
can a dealer ...nit would they,
but can they put the ball where they want within ONE or may be two slots??

The ball pockets are shallow. It's appears as if the ball is spinning/bouncing on a hub cap. Completely random.

Ball pockets were much deeper back in the day? Supposedly a few talented dealers could hit quadrants at a higher than expected rate.

interesting....

I think she was pulling your leg to get you to tip the dealers more.

I am no physics expert, but I suppose technically it is possible for somebody to launch the ball with the intention of landing in a certain pocket or certain area of the wheel (probably more likely), but you would have to be perfectly precise. The ball launch would have to initiate at the exact right time, at the right location on the wheel, and the right when the wheel is at the right point in the spin. It probably can be done by the right person (somebody with a great mind and great perception and they would require a ton of practice), but I can't picture most humans being able to do this, especially to the exact precision of one pocket every time.

Not possible, especially with the new wheels
that have no frets between the pockets.
It's an urban legend propagated by people
who lose. "The dealer was spinning against
me." Sure he was, dude, whatever..

You want to find out if a roulette dealer is able to get certain selected numbers all you have to do is look at the players: if Dealer's Hubby, Brother, Brother-in-Law and Sister are sitting there you might be on to something. If there not, then you are on something that causes you to believe a low salaried, tip-begging dealer is in control of anything at all.

Our very own Croupier did an experiment on this and the results were very interesting...based on his experience he found that he was able to "aim" at a given quadrant with consistency, over a fairly large number of samples (I believe it was something like 1000 spins or more). I have no idea if it was statistically significant or what kind of equipment he was spinning on.

I can't find the thread here, but if I remember correctly the response from forums members was underwhelming, in my opinion.

Quote: FleaStiff

You want to find out if a roulette dealer is able to get certain selected numbers all you have to do is look at the players: if Dealer's Hubby, Brother, Brother-in-Law and Sister are sitting there you might be on to something. If there not, then you are on something that causes you to believe a low salaried, tip-begging dealer is in control of anything at all.

exactly

Quote: AcesAndEights

Our very own Croupier did an experiment on this and the results were very interesting...based on his experience he found that he was able to "aim" at a given quadrant with consistency, over a fairly large number of samples (I believe it was something like 1000 spins or more). I have no idea if it was statistically significant or what kind of equipment he was spinning on.

I can't find the thread here, but if I remember correctly the response from forums members was underwhelming, in my opinion.

Roulette Spin Control

Quote: miplet

Roulette Spin Control

It was 20,000 spins. Certainly enough for the results to be statistically significant. I don't want to accuse anyone of anything, but I'll believe it when I see it (I am a naturally skeptical person)

Is one spin every 16 seconds realistic? I don't play roulette so I have no idea how long the ball actually spins for.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Is one spin every 16 seconds realistic? I don't play roulette so I have no idea how long the ball actually spins for.

About 90 seconds for a live game spin, minus waiting to place bets, minus sweeping layout, minus paying out, minus restacking cheques... it's plausible.

The casino wants high spins per hour but mainly looks at when the dealer says no more bets and waves his hand over the layout. If that wheel is decaying in speed rapidly and the recent bets are winning, something is up. Otherwise the house doesn't much care and will decide on using a mucker or a different dealer. The casino doesn't want past posters or people even getting close to making a bet when the ball is falling into a slot.

I have no scientific basis for what I'm about to say, which should go over well on this forum :). But speaking purely as a layperson who plays roulette semi-regularly for fun, mostly because my ploppy friends like it. I'd say a dealer consistently hitting a specific number...no way in hell. But a section of the wheel...yeah probably. Maybe say a quarter or at least a third of the wheel. Is very probable. Can I say for sure I've seen it done...no. But as Croupiers' study pointed out; it seems possible. So if a dealer could consistently hit say 8 out of the 37/38 numbers even twice as much as normal. I'd say that's a beatable game, at least enough to overcome the 5.26% house edge. Of course said dealer would quickly be out of a job and/or be locked up for violating gaming regs. So in the real world is it an issue?...probably not. But I'm sure some people have and will continue to try it.

If the data provided in that thread is accurate, then there is no doubt that he is controlling the ball.

I am usually the one arguing that more data is needed, but in this case it's not even remotely close. The probability of him achieving results like that on random spins is essentially 0.

Just stand and watch the ball ping pong around the wheel for a while and you should conclude the wheel is completely random IMHO

]I think she was pulling your leg to get you to tip the dealers more.

This was AFTER SHE QUIT and had zero stake in the house/casino/ or
former employees. She didnt leave on bad terms, but nonetheless,
still left...

Quote: Treetopbuddy

Just stand and watch the ball ping pong around the wheel for a while and you should conclude the wheel is completely random IMHO

No, that's not exactly true. If you were to record where the ball hits the wheel, where it actually lands, and then graph the distance between the two, you'd quickly find that it's not random enough. (coefficient of restitution test). Within 1000 trials, you'd likely see a section of yardage belling upwards beyond ten or more standard deviations. Of course different models of wheels, wheel speed, and ball used, have different scatter profiles.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

If the data provided in that thread is accurate, then there is no doubt that he is controlling the ball.

I am usually the one arguing that more data is needed, but in this case it's not even remotely close. The probability of him achieving results like that on random spins is essentially 0.

Yeah, that's why I was surprised there wasn't more surprise on that thread. Although he hasn't been around in a while, Croupier is a respected member of the forum who has met several others (including the Wiz) in person. So while I'm not vouching personally for his data, I believe it to be true. So if you take that data to be true, you essentially have proof that with the kind of equipment he was using "steering" is possible.

Arnold Snyder came out with similar claims last year. It doesn't seem so implausible that a dealer who wants to steer the ball, can. The trick is finding one who wants you to win.

This seems like one case where collusion would actually be pretty easy to get away with. I'm not going to detail a plan of attack, but you get the idea.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Yeah, that's why I was surprised there wasn't more surprise on that thread. Although he hasn't been around in a while, Croupier is a respected member of the forum who has met several others (including the Wiz) in person. So while I'm not vouching personally for his data, I believe it to be true. So if you take that data to be true, you essentially have proof that with the kind of equipment he was using "steering" is possible.

Arnold Snyder came out with similar claims last year. It doesn't seem so implausible that a dealer who wants to steer the ball, can. The trick is finding one who wants you to win.

This seems like one case where collusion would actually be pretty easy to get away with. I'm not going to detail a plan of attack, but you get the idea.

Yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I tend to be very skeptical, and I'll believe it when I see it. But I also don't want to accuse anyone of anything, particularly a respected forum member.

Remember that Stanford Wong also believed in dice control. This is a little different (Stanford Wong didn't have data like this), but, I don't know. Perhaps mistakes were made.

Anyway, I don't particularly care. Collusion with a dealer is clearly cheating, and a felony in Nevada (and I'd assume most other places). It's also not particularly hard for a dealer in a hand-held blackjack game to deal you winners if he is skilled. I have no interest in this. I have no issues with using my skills to beat a game within the rules, but this clearly crosses a line that I have no interest in being anywhere near.

Here is my opinion, for what its worth........

Dealers, with years and years of practice is able to let the ball go at exactly the same spot on the wheel track in relation to the opposing spinning wheel. They are also able to control the speed with which they spin the wheel and how fast the turret turns. If all of these factors are closely included in each and every spin then I believe the ball will slow down at the same rate and fall in the same quadrant. There are still some issues that the ball has to deal with before coming to rest such as the "canoe's" and the divisions between the numbers. Also, as mentioned before the divisions are nowhere near as high as they were in the old days, in fact some are simply grooved numbers with hardly any division between the numbers. This will cause the ball to "slide" over divisions more regularly than they would have in the olden days.
So it is possible for a very experienced dealer to hit a section of, lets say 10 to 15 numbers on the reg but I don't think it is a play that can be relied upon due to the other factors mentioned above. I have to stress, the dealer needs to be with the Roulette ball and wheel like John Wayne was with a gun........

Let us look at it from the house perspective. The ball is changed every day, one day small the next day big. Also when the ball leaves the wheel declaring a "no-spin" most casino regulations require the ball to be changed to the "alternate" that they have. Also the dealers are not changed with regularity because the casino is afraid that they may be trying to control the outcome of the game, it is simply because there are many more dealers now who deal most or all of the games. In the olden days it was ok for a dealer to only deal blackjack or only deal roulette or only deal craps. Those days are gone......dealers need to be well versed in a few games before they are considered for employment. Also the casinos are not as busy so perhaps the staffing levels are off and people need to go on break more often. If any casino manager removes a dealer from a game before their alloted break they better have proof that the dealer is doing something funky or they are too superstitious for their own good and they shouldn't be running a table games operation anyway.

Is it possible.......technically yes, very technically.

Would I worry about it happening at my property, no, because an abnormal win (outside of 3 standard deviations) would be investigated and clamped down on quick, fast and in a hurry........

Now biased wheels and unscrupulous dealers.......whole different kettle of fish :)

We tried it about 15 years ago with a friend of ours who is a long time roulette dealer...and lost. My guess is when they know/try it changes their motion. If they don't know it's probably better. If I ever was going to try it again I would watch a long time dealer with a smooth release and clock his release points and compare it against quadrants the ball eventually lands in. There also probably would be a difference between the beginning of the shift, the middle of the shift and the end of his shift. I would guess the beginning of the shift would be the most consistent.

FYI:
To the dealer who wants NO part of this, and to those wondering why I am hinting. . or
out right ASKING is this remotely possible..
Am I going to try this? No.
nah, and never

I am just wondering from a probable and
scienctific point of view....

Wow, so dealer's signature is a viable form of advantage play, who knew, hey hey!

Is this superstition? When (rarely) I play table roulette, I always wait until the ball is thrown before placing my bet, in the silly idea that the dealer might tune his/her throw as a function of where we bet. Also, I bet where others didn't. Yeah, yeah, superstition. But it can't hurt, so...

Most people overlook the conditions required for sector shooting.

For starters a wheel has to have some kind of dominant ball drop zone on the bowl. When it's present, even a green dealer can intentionally or unintentionally hit sections. Regardless of what dealer's will tell you, it's not the super human skill of the dealer that makes it possible, it's the wheel. This is why some dealers insist that they can do it, and others believe that it's impossible.

If a dominant ball drop zone isn't present, then it's virtually impossible to hit sections by aiming.

Such drop zones are the result of off level wheels and wear.