Pai Gow Poker questions

Quote: Face

Agreed, and for the record, I've never seen a Floor or a dealer demand that the hand is fouled.

This happened to me once on a monster hand. They tried to not pay the fortune bet because the main bet was fouled. I expressed my displeasure very strongly, and they eventually paid me on the sidebet. Actually, this happened at the casino that'll be covered in tomorrow's chip of the day post. I legitimately almost died leaving the casino, too. That was a surreal day, I guess.

Some Casino operators show their true colors.

To try to deny the bonus bet (which is based on just the seven cards dealt - regardless of set) is despicable. Really dirt-low.

A fouled hand pays the full-hand bonus bets as it was dealt, - it ONLY forfeits the main bet's win/loss/push result to a loss. It is not a folded hand, and even on folded hands, side bets play by practice.

Even in internal control documentation, it is stated on Pai Gow Poker: "side bets are based on the full 7-card hand dealt, - regardless of the hand setting." Mathematically, all loses on the main bet, even from hand fouling, and divorced from side bet fair win payouts, as it is based on the "static" hand originally dealt.

If they deal you the hand with your money in action, then they pay you the full "side bet winnings" WHEN you win it - which are not based on hand sets that forfeit the main bet that is based on hand set fouls. You simply cannot "Foul" a side bet on a full hand dealt to you.

If the casino looks at the 7-card hand to deny the main bet on a fouled hand, they still have to pay on the full and natural hand dealt for the side bets.

The whole point of side bets is that you cannot "foul out" a side bet winner based on your hand setting, - as they are statistically static. You receive a wining hand dealt, you get paid a winning hand dealt, period, - end of story! But....You foul out your "competition" main bet with the dealer, you lose ONLY that bet.

- What if you had a nine-high Pai Gow (9875432, and you set it as 92/87543 after a couple of Jagermeister shots?) You still have a nine-high 7-card hand, and win 100:1 on what you've bet on Insurance. You lose your $10 or so main bet, but THEY HAVE TO PAY YOU and all side bets as the full hand dealt, - and on which all side bets are based on AND pay on.

I don't think so otherwise.
You have an exceedingly valid complaint with Gaming, and some money due you.

Let me stress that the floorman might not have tried to cheat you. He may have [clearly and simply] been an idiot.

Dan, when you used to deal, did they used to call fouled hands dead?

If so, that is a disgrace. There is no good reason not to reset the hand the house way. This is policy at some (most?) casinos. The casino is already making money in a +EV game, there is no good reason to try to extract extra money from the people who don't understand the game, or are drunk, or who just had a brain fart.

I can confirm that at least the Borgata pays the fortune bet on qualifying 7-card hands when the player sets it as a foul hand.

Quote: sodawater

I can confirm that at least the Borgata pays the fortune bet on qualifying 7-card hands when the player sets it as a foul hand.

Absolutely Decent, fair, and correct!

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Dan, when you used to deal, did they used to call fouled hands dead?

If so, that is a disgrace. There is no good reason not to reset the hand the house way. This is policy at some (most?) casinos. The casino is already making money in a +EV game, there is no good reason to try to extract extra money from the people who don't understand the game, or are drunk, or who just had a brain fart.

No, damn right, agree!

They used to re-set the hands by the house way, and pay off to the player no problem. I've always done this, a thousand times, and the game goes on in good faith. I've even had to set players hands on Pai Gow Poker to the house way on request, - if they had wished to play blind, even playing at the table mnimum.

If a player continuously mis-set and fouled his hand, we would set his hand for him up to three times, and after that, tell him that he had to have the dealer set to house way [while he drank], and be good with that. It took a tiny bit of extra time for me to set his hand to the house way.

We had some Pai Gow players, who, after a few shots [or for what ever lazy reason], would just place their hands in front of their bets by the dealer's area and say: "dealer sets my hand the house way", and be done with it, and I would do so. I'd always set their hands quicker than they would, [if Stanford Wong wasn't at the table], and always to the exact house way.

If a player EVER fouled his hand innocently, he got more chances than like "being an only son working in his father's shop," if he was learning, or otherwise being a good guy, including asking for dealer's setting of the hands and why. But if he was taking shots at staff and being a dick, - he is done for the night very quickly, but he leaves with his legit winnings.

1. We ALWAYS re-set to the house way with any player acting in good faith without declaring a fouling of his hand, - ever, if behaved.
2. We always cut off a player who was basically taking shots and pulling our dicks. We sent them to Joker's Wild or the Long Horn Casino, somewhere out the door.
3. We ALWAYS paid legit "bonus bets dealt" in a hand dealt to a player, - and then either kept a "very fine person player" who is simply learning the game, - or told some dick that he needs to leave the pit area if push comes to shove.

Casino operators and Gambling Hall operators do try to be fair to those who are fair in their play.
A reset hand is never problem, and should be never problem, when to can see that the player is 100% good faith.
There is NO circumstance when a side bet win should be denied on a fouled hand, even if the player is a jerk and you can fool him, or if caused by floorman incompetence.

"Pay Him and Let Him Leave" is better than "Stiff him and he leaves"
and
"The casino pays its winning hands obligations to players," to boot.

That's good. Seems fair.

I'm not sure how this could not be in good faith. I can't see how to get an advantage from this (unless you are hoping that the dealer won't notice -- which has basically zero chance against an experienced dealer)

I've actually never fouled a hand. I mentioned it in passing once (I said "I'd better be careful not to foul the hand", and the dealer said "don't worry about it, we would set it the house way")

Also can confirm that the Borgata will NOT set a pai gow tiles hand to the house way, even if the player made a mistake and set it a way that makes no sense.

For example if a player gets dealt all 7s and sets it 4-4 instead of pair-pair, they will not set it house way. I think that's a little silly, because there is zero advantage to setting it 4-4. Now obviously if a player sets a hand 7-7 and the house way is 5-9, then that has to stand no matter what.

Quote: sodawater

Also can confirm that the Borgata will NOT set a pai gow tiles hand to the house way, even if the player made a mistake and set it a way that makes no sense.

For example if a player gets dealt all 7s and sets it 4-4 instead of pair-pair, they will not set it house way. I think that's a little silly, because there is zero advantage to setting it 4-4.

This is a slightly different situation, though.

Quote: Paigowdan

I posted a one-page fully optimized PGP strategy two years ago here. I'll dig it up.

Here
I've fouled my hand before. Grabbed 3 cards for the low hand. Of course they fixxed it for me. I have also missed a flush, and while I didn't foul my hand, they fixxed that from a push to a win.

Quote: sodawater

I can confirm that at least the Borgata pays the fortune bet on qualifying 7-card hands when the player sets it as a foul hand.

Not always, and they won't always let you correct a fouled hand to house way. Most of the time when I see a player foul their hand at Borgata I hear "we will fix it for you this one time, but if it happens again we will take your money". I have also seen where certain floor people don't even fix it one time, but it all seems to depend on who is working at the time.

Quote: bw

Not always, and they won't always let you correct a fouled hand to house way. Most of the time when I see a player foul their hand at Borgata I hear "we will fix it for you this one time, but if it happens again we will take your money". I have also seen where certain floor people don't even fix it one time, but it all seems to depend on who is working at the time.

This has been far and away my experience over many years. You get to ask for help. You get to have them set it house way if you ask, and some places insist on it if you're playing a second hand. And you get one fouled hand reset, unless you've already demonstrated that you can play. After that, a hand with the 2 card higher than the 5 card is a loss.

It's possible they've relaxed that standard in the last few years, as I haven't been playing much since about 2008. But I kind of doubt it. It might be that places that are relatively new themselves and introducing the game to a lot of locals as gaming has proliferated to other states are doing it. Seems more likely. But I wouldn't depend on forgiveness for long.

Fouling a hand is different from a poor set of a hand.

For example, I had three pair in my hand and didnt' realize it and correctly split the two pair, but didn't realize that I had a third pair. If the hand had been set correctly, i would have won, but I ended up pushing the hand and the house didn't correct it.

Quote: boymimbo

Fouling a hand is different from a poor set of a hand.

For example, I had three pair in my hand and didnt' realize it and correctly split the two pair, but didn't realize that I had a third pair. If the hand had been set correctly, i would have won, but I ended up pushing the hand and the house didn't correct it.

Agree; I've never seen them correct one that's not optimally set, but they're happy to tell you what the correct set should have been...sometimes annoyingly (lol). "You set house way, youuuu WIN!". Well, yeah, this time that's true. The last 2 times, it went the other way. That's part of what's interesting about the game, that you have options. Safe way vs. gambling way; push way vs. win/lose gamble; guarding a bad hand by playing 2nd/4th up top rather than 2nd/3rd; splitting kings 3OAK or not; how you play 2 pairs depending on which 2 they are. That's the kind of fine-tuning by casino I want to figure out. There has to be an edge available, even if not a +ev situation (and I think there are some house ways where a +ev situation occurs on some hands, because they always choose the "safer" option), if you know the optimal play against that particular house way.

It's not just that. If you don't see a card in your hand and you set it in a way that doesn't foul the hand, you're forced to abide by that result EVEN if there was no better play.

For example, you have KKK AQ97 in your hand and you set it KKKA7 /Q9. This is clearly wrong because the A CAN only be in the "top" hand. Yet it's a legal set, and it's prety likely that you'll tie. I've actually done something similar to that because you didn't see a card properly.

In the case of three pair, the house might argue that if they had two pair in the bottom that you were trying to beat them on your two pair, and it would be possible to set your hand in that way and score a win over a push.

Quote: boymimbo

It's not just that. If you don't see a card in your hand and you set it in a way that doesn't foul the hand, you're forced to abide by that result EVEN if there was no better play.

For example, you have KKK AQ97 in your hand and you set it KKKA7 /Q9. This is clearly wrong because the A CAN only be in the "top" hand. Yet it's a legal set, and it's prety likely that you'll tie. I've actually done something similar to that because you didn't see a card properly.

In the case of three pair, the house might argue that if they had two pair in the bottom that you were trying to beat them on your two pair, and it would be possible to set your hand in that way and score a win over a push.

Yes.
Hands like JJ77225 may be set 77/JJ225, to beat a dealer's two pair hand such as AQ/994410, the reason being IF you want to beat a dealer's two-pair with Ace hand, set the five card side's two pair to BEAT another typical two pair bottom hand.

Generally it is best to "lock" the low side with the best pair possible, and field the lower two pairs on the bottom. If you tied because the two-pair bottom was below the dealer's better two pair, such are the breaks.

For this reason, in Pai Gow Poker Power Rankings, where the hand listings are from Five Aces in the five-card side down to a 9-high Pai Gow, you'll "0" under AA-high two pairs, as it is NOT supposed to occur in PGP with this standard house way setting of "highest pair of three pairs goes to the two-card side."

Quote: bw

Not always, and they won't always let you correct a fouled hand to house way. Most of the time when I see a player foul their hand at Borgata I hear "we will fix it for you this one time, but if it happens again we will take your money". I have also seen where certain floor people don't even fix it one time, but it all seems to depend on who is working at the time.

I wasn't talking about Borgata setting your fouled hand house way in PG poker. I was talking about them (correctly) paying the 7-card bonus bet on a foul hand.

It's my understanding that the one should never affect the other, unless they suspect you specifically of or have a house policy of considering a fouled hand cheating; and even then, they should pay the bonus even if they back you off after that. It should only affect the pay of the base bet.

Quote: sodawater

I wasn't talking about Borgata setting your fouled hand house way in PG poker. I was talking about them (correctly) paying the 7-card bonus bet on a foul hand.

Just saw them take someones protection bet last week when the person had King high Pai Gow but fouled his hand. It was an elderly man playing and he just made a mistake setting. When I asked the next floorperson that came into the pit afterwards, they said the earlier one was in error on taking the protection bet. So it is all who is working when it happens.

After practicing my hand-setting on the Wizard's game a lot, I headed off to the casino to try my hand at baking and explore the local conditions.

First of all, I discovered that my experience in the first post of this thread [paying no commission] seems to be the exception, and not the rule, among my local casinos, based on a sample size of 3. If you're just playing the main bet, 5% commission on wins as per the norm. But if you're playing at least one of the side bets, no commission required. I didn't inquire as to the required ratio here (would a $1 side bet cover your $300 base bet?). But anyway, that was a disappointment.

At the first table, there were several other players and I felt timid asking to bank. This casino had 2 PGP tables; the other one was empty so I tried my hand at baking head-to-head. The dealer initially was moving the button back and forth between myself and him, awesome! Then he checked in with the floor person, and sure enough, the house policy was to zig-zag between all spots, occupied or not, for a net effect of banking every 12th hand! Blah.

Next casino, I asked to bank while there was one other player. I won my bet against the house, and I noticed she collected the 5% commission on my win before resolving the other player's hand! Which kind of negates the benefit of the net-commission effect. The other player pushed with me, and I never ended up banking again, so I didn't get a chance to protest. The button followed the same zig-zag pattern with the empty seats (blah!), and when the dealers changed, there was an extensive conversation in either Cantonese or Mandarin about the banking button procedures. The net effect, is that the new dealer asked the player who's turn it was if he wanted to bank (he was quite confused at the question), and then the button stopped moving and she never asked again.

What's clear to me is that casinos are clearly trying to discourage player banking. I can understand their position, obviously you're slicing off a piece of their profits from the other players to yourself. But if they really don't want you to do it, and the procedures are not well-taught to the dealers, why not just stop allowing the option all together? Whatever.

Last question for the folks on this thread (for now, hehe): when you bank, are you liable for banking the bonus bets too? I'm assuming the answer is "no" and it's just about the main bet. Unclear though.

I still really like the idea of banking, and I think I'll keep trying to do it, just to force casinos to get their procedures straight. I feel like it's an important part of the game, and if they're going to offer it, they should know how to do it!

Not allowing banking, or zig-zagging banking, is similar to 6:5 blackjack. It's a bad rule designed to increase the house profits. PGP without banking is for suckers, pure and simple. Don't fall for it...

(Actually, not allowing banking is a more costly rule change, in terms of house edge, than blackjacks paying 6:5)

Always lots of confusion in the banking procedure, you are correct the dealers need more training in it.

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Same with the MGM in Vegas

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Not surprising that MGM has better rules...I'll have to swing by next time I'm in Vegas. Banking every other hand at a table with other players who don't want to bank...that's a great play.

Especially when the other players set their hands poorly!

Good players who bet big insist on banking, so I think it will remain available for a while yet, at least on traditional PGP (vs. EZ). But the dealers do have some trouble doing it well in most places for some reason. The places I've played, it's all every other hand when head-to-head, or at worst the button goes around, and only returns to the dealer if someone banks. Things could easily be changing, though.

I forgot the highlight of my recent banking experiment - on the first hand I banked, I won the high hand and copied on the low hand. He started to take my money! I'm like, hey! There's a reason I'm banking here...he realized it before having to call the floor to give me my win back.

Quote: AcesAndEights

I forgot the highlight of my recent banking experiment - on the first hand I banked, I won the high hand and copied on the low hand. He started to take my money! I'm like, hey! There's a reason I'm banking here...he realized it before having to call the floor to give me my win back.

*facepalm*

As earlier requested, here is a link to my personal way used for $$$ from 1993-2006. Since posting the strat, I have tweaked it slightly to accomodate playing 2's 3's and 4's in the same manner. There was also one oversight, that cause a ranking to move up one step. Splitting two pairs slightly modified outside of 2233, 2244, and 3344.

The final 2013 model for Player or Player as Banker is therefore as follows;

...The Player Way: "Front hand" or "front" is the 2-card hand. These decisions are made top to bottom.
If a decision fails, move to the next-lower decision. If the decision matches, then the EXCEPTIONS and STEPS are tested.
Ace-Face is AJ, AQ, or AK. A Royal-Straight-Flush is a Straight-Flush by these tests.

Five Aces: A Pair of Aces plays to the front hand.

Quad + Triple: Play the high Pair in front.

Quad + Pair: The Pair plays in front.

[Straight-Flush, Flush, or Straight] containing one Pair or better: Best [choice] 5-card hand + Pair.
....(Covers Ace-Ace-Ace-Joker that is also a Straight, Flush, or Straight-Flush)

Quads: TTTT = Four Tens, split = Pair + Pair. Play these STEPS as follows from top to bottom;
...1.) 2222, 3333, 4444: do not split. The two highest ranked remainders play to front.
...2.) 5555, 6666, 7777, 8888: King or Ace with best non-quad plays to front, else split.
...3.) 9999, TTTT, J J J J, QQQQ: Ace with best non-quad plays to front, else split.
...4.) KKKK or AAAA: Split, EXCEPT play KKK + AK, OR play AAA + Ace-Face.

Full House + Pair: Higher of the two Pairs plays to front hand.

Full House or Two Triples: Play as Low Triple + Pair,
...EXCEPT Play Ace-Face in front of any Full House having the Pair ranked 4-4 or less.

[Straight-Flush, Flush, or Straight] that is also Three Pairs: Play as Three Pairs (see below).

[Straight-Flush, Flush, or Straight] that is also Two Pairs: Play as Two Pairs (see below)

[Straight-Flush, Flush, or Straight]: Play the [choice] 5-card hand + best two cards.

Triples: Best two non-triples play to front,
...EXCEPT AAA splits as Ace with best non-triple in front of AA with remainders.

Three Pairs: Play the highest Pair to front.

Two Pairs: split = High Pair with others + Low Pair. Play these STEPS as follows from top to bottom;
...1.) High Pair AA or KK: Always split.
...2.) Low Pair 10-10 or better: Always split.
...3.) High Pair 99 to QQ: Play Ace with best non-pair to front, else split.
...4.) High Pair 55 to 88: Play King or Ace with best non-pair to front, else split.
...5.) High Pair 44 or 33: Do Not Split, play the two best non-pairs to front.

One Pair: Play the Pair and three lowest ranks as the 5-card hand with remaining two cards in front.

High Card (Pai Gow): Play the 2nd and 3rd highest ranks in front: all other cards in back.

I did find Dan's, but will refrain until he wishes to link.

Question. Lets say you have Jj 66 and an ace what is the correct play if you know there is only one ace left or also if there are none left

Quote: 98Clubs

...3.) High Pair 99 to QQ: Play Ace with best non-pair to front, else split.

JJ66 + Ace

WoO indicates 0.3325 played as 66 + JJ and 0.3344 as JJ66 + Ace-8 (the 8 is the average rank of possibilities 3 to K: 5 below and 5 above)

Thanks I get that part my question is what is the edge if you know all the aces are gone or four of them are gine

The more Aces you know are gone, the better the edge for the A-anything being a successful play for a win, not just a push. The dealer would have to have 3oak or better in the back + a pair up top to beat that hand. 3 pair might beat it, but it would take K's AND Q's or the other J's as 2 of the three, just to start; otherwise the house way is always to play the highest pair up front, and unlikely the remaining lower 2 pair would beat J's in your hand and you would push at worst.

Agreed babs... thats why I like AAAA with a king as AAA + AK as opposed to a split. Crush a 2-pair or 1 pair, but have to push on the split 2-pair. It takes a Straight or Better + Pair to win.

Quote: 98Clubs

Agreed babs... thats why I like AAAA with a king as AAA + AK as opposed to a split. Crush a 2-pair or 1 pair, but have to push on the split 2-pair. It takes a Straight or Better + Pair to win.

Mathematically, this is a very poor way to play four aces. You're giving up approximately 17.38% if the dealer is banking, and 15.33% if you are banking.

The primary reason is because splitting the aces evenly gives you an unbeatable low hand (the dealer can't even copy it, whereas the Ace-King can be copied).

Are we able to infer equity just by using the WOO tables? I ask because I was playing while more than a little drunk, got dealt TTTT55x and thought it would be really clever if I set it TT55x - TT and I was wondering how much equity I gave away (I won the hand anyway, but when I woke up the next morning, I was all WTF)

Quote: offTopic

Are we able to infer equity just by using the WOO tables? I ask because I was playing while more than a little drunk, got dealt TTTT55x and thought it would be really clever if I set it TT55x - TT and I was wondering how much equity I gave away (I won the hand anyway, but when I woke up the next morning, I was all WTF)

You gave up between 4% and 6% of expected return depending on the house way, what rank the "x" was, and whether or not it was suited with one of the 5s.

Quote: JB

You gave up between 4% and 6% of expected return depending on the house way, what rank the "x" was, and whether or not it was suited with one of the 5s.

I can't see how the rank or suit of the x would affect this hand at all?

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Quote: bw

I can't see how the rank or suit of the x would affect this hand at all?

These are the figures for TTTT+55+x against the Foxwoods house way when the dealer is banking:

	x suited with a 5			x unsuited with either 5
x	55	TT	Diff	55	TT	Diff
2	0.762546	0.719914	0.042632	0.762708	0.720866	0.041842
3	0.762734	0.721341	0.041393	0.762915	0.722248	0.040667
4	0.762904	0.722795	0.040109	0.763102	0.723655	0.039447
6	0.776961	0.722953	0.054008	0.777150	0.723805	0.053345
7	0.776982	0.721680	0.055302	0.777146	0.722582	0.054564
8	0.776866	0.720577	0.056289	0.777010	0.721520	0.055490
9	0.776768	0.719427	0.057341	0.776893	0.720413	0.056480
J	0.779093	0.728988	0.050105	0.779192	0.729983	0.049209
Q	0.779067	0.728734	0.050333	0.779167	0.729727	0.049440
K	0.778985	0.728495	0.050490	0.779085	0.729491	0.049594
A	0.780925	0.729197	0.051728	0.781019	0.730055	0.050964
W	-	-	-	0.783727	0.760431	0.023296

haha...wow. Thanks

I have no recollection of what x was.