Liberty Stars Keno

I just finished a first draft of my page on Liberty Stars Keno. This is another keno-based game by U1 Gaming.

As always, I welcome comments, corrections, and questions before I announce this to a wider audience. Thank you.

Quote: Wizard

I just finished a first draft of my page on Liberty Stars Keno. This is another keno-based game by U1 Gaming.

As always, I welcome comments, corrections, and questions before I announce this to a wider audience. Thank you.

Hi, Wizard!

I think your explanation is very good, and an improvement on the help screen, even with the graphics available to them. I only saw 2 minor things:

"Example 4 is form a bonus game": I think you meant "from".

In the first table, "Multiplier Table", the free games awarded for 7 stars is shown as 8. However, on the help screen, it's shown as 7 = 7 free games awarded.

If I'm understanding your stat tables correctly, the entire game provides a 96%+ return when played for 10 catches? I would try it for that; I had always understood Keno to have much lower %'s than that. Am I reading that correctly?

Quote: beachbumbabs

If I'm understanding your stat tables correctly, the entire game provides a 96%+ return when played for 10 catches? I would try it for that; I had always understood Keno to have much lower %'s than that. Am I reading that correctly?

If I'm understanding correctly, U1's machines offer unusually high returns, but only for unusually high bet amounts.

The 96.51% return is probably only available at the $2 max bet level. The Wizard's screen shots show that when he wagered the 5-cent minimum, the return decreased to only 90.00%.

Quote: beachbumbabs

If I'm understanding your stat tables correctly, the entire game provides a 96%+ return when played for 10 catches? I would try it for that; I had always understood Keno to have much lower %'s than that. Am I reading that correctly?

Thanks for those corrections. 96.5% is indeed a very strong return for keno. Most keno games pay about 90%. So, if you must play keno, especially at $2 a pop, I'd recommend playing a U1 game. However, you could make out a lot better playing video poker.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for those corrections. 96.5% is indeed a very strong return for keno. Most keno games pay about 90%. So, if you must play keno, especially at $2 a pop, I'd recommend playing a U1 game. However, you could make out a lot better playing video poker.

:) I'm practicing your strategy tables for Deuces Wild, as that's my favorite VP. Hope to find a good paytable next time I go out and invest some time on it. Thanks for all you do!

Quote: beachbumbabs

If I'm understanding your stat tables correctly, the entire game provides a 96%+ return when played for 10 catches? I would try it for that; I had always understood Keno to have much lower %'s than that. Am I reading that correctly?

For the $2 per credit level you are. For the nickel per draw the Wiz bet in the picture, the game returned 90% including the random network bonus according to U1 Gaming.

I'm trying to dig where you might possibly be off (because your math used 7 free spins as written, so it's not that), but other than trying to redoing the math, it will be hard. And they are just as likely to be off of course. Did a help screen say things like 10 for 10 wins were fully excluded from multipliers since the odds were so rare?

Quote: tringlomane

For the $2 per credit level you are. For the nickel per draw the Wiz bet in the picture, the game returned 90% including the random network bonus according to U1 Gaming.

I'm trying to dig where you might possibly be off (because your math used 7 free spins as written, so it's not that), but other than trying to redoing the math, it will be hard. And they are just as likely to be off of course. Did a help screen say things like 10 for 10 wins were fully excluded from multipliers since the odds were so rare?

Thanks for checking. I've been off by +-/0 0.03% on lots of U1 games, not just this one. No, there are no such obscure exceptions in the rules. I tend to think they don't use as many significant digits as I do, or something like that. However, if you PM me your Email I'll send you my Liberty Stars spreadsheet, that shows my math. It is not documented well.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for checking. I've been off by +-/0 0.03% on lots of U1 games, not just this one. No, there are no such obscure exceptions in the rules. I tend to think they don't use as many significant digits as I do, or something like that. However, if you PM me your Email I'll send you my Liberty Stars spreadsheet, that shows my math. It is not documented well.

It's definitely possible it could be a significant digit issue, but with today's computers, wouldn't people know not to do this? I have seen some old IGT par sheets for video poker reporting games only to the nearest tenth of a percent, so I guess they could be that dumb...lol And email sent via PM.

I understand why live Keno is so horrible its slow and you can't really make mistakes like on Video poker. Video Keno is now very fast and its somwhat popular so why are the payback percentages still so horrible compared to VideoPoker? Customers would not stand for 90% payback on VideoPoker why do they on keno? What dose this say about Keno players?

Quote: AxelWolf

I understand why live Keno is so horrible its slow and you can't really make mistakes like on Video poker. Video Keno is now very fast and its somwhat popular so why are the payback percentages still so horrible compared to VideoPoker? Customers would not stand for 90% payback on VideoPoker why do they on keno? What dose this say about Keno players?

Higher variance and the game is error-free like you mentioned. Also people that started playing video keno likely used to play live keno, which is a terrible as hell payout. So video keno is a massive improvement for them. These players likely play the lottery regularly, which is even worse.

Quote: AxelWolf

I understand why live Keno is so horrible its slow and you can't really make mistakes like on Video poker. Video Keno is now very fast and its somwhat popular so why are the payback percentages still so horrible compared to VideoPoker? Customers would not stand for 90% payback on VideoPoker why do they on keno? What dose this say about Keno players?

As has been stated, you have the effect of player mistakes, which is why 96% on a $2.00 bet makes sense to me for these VK games. It certainly depends on the game, but I'd venture to say that even on a, "Good," VP game, your average VP player is probably playing at an Expected Return right around there, given mistakes.

Someone can also correct me if I'm wrong, but it also seems that this U1 concept of better returns based on the bet amount on what is otherwise the same game on the same machine is relatively new. Many of the VK games that offer lesser returns have similar bet ranges, anywhere from $0.05-$2.00 or $0.05-$3.50, $0.05-$5.00, something like that, but most people are playing on the lower end of that spectrum, in my experience.

Finally, you have to Max Bet to get the most return on pretty much every VP game I've ever seen, so played optimally, a $0.25 machine, for all practical purposes, is really a $1.25 machine.

Quote: AxelWolf

Video Keno is now very fast and its somwhat popular so why are the payback percentages still so horrible compared to VideoPoker? Customers would not stand for 90% payback on VideoPoker why do they on keno? What dose this say about Keno players?

You could ask the same question about video slots. It think it comes down to selective pricing. Players who play slots and keno are not savvy gamblers and play what machine they feel is lucky or fun. Meanwhile video poker players are smarter and tough to please, so the casinos know they have to have be more competitive in that area.

I think it is like how there are often discounts for those over 50 in Vegas. They know these people probably live here and have nothing better to do than shop around for a value. One price for the tough consumer and one for the sucker.

Video keno players look like the type of people who have gambled every day for years, and the fun is completely gone. At this point, their primary reason for visiting the casino is to smoke indoors, and they want a game that won't distract them or require any thought.

They may roughly comprehend pay tables and percentage returns, but they're too (a)pathetic to seek value.

IMO.