Multi-game unit that showed odds?

I was at South Point recently and a very new looking unit caught my eye. The seats for it were these comfortable-looking executive office style chairs and the screens for it had adjustable angles. What made the unit particularly interesting is that they openly listed their payback percentage and, the greater your bet, the higher it was (up to a maximum of ~99%, depending on the game).

The games included keno, slots and video poker, with video poker having an additional interesting option: For the price of a ~1% return, the unit would automatically make the optimal holds for you.

I only noticed it on my way out so I couldn't spend too much time looking at it, but it seemed a novel idea. Does anybody know the full name of it or could point me towards additional information on it?

I called South Point and those would be the Dotty's U1 machines, article below:

http://gamingtoday.com/articles/article/28256-U1_machine

I skimmed the article and am about to read the whole thing, great concept.

The people at South Point are very friendly and knowledgable, at least, the two that I talked to were. The gentleman to whom I was transferred in Slots was very polite and immediately knew of the machines to which I referred.

Aha, yes, thank you!

The machines looked really nice and pretty comfortable. The design aesthetic isn't quite my taste, but assuming the machine's not lying about its info, it might be interesting to try it for a bit.

One feature I noticed that I neglected to mention (and doesn't appear to be mentioned in that article) is that it had a session counter. You could turn it on and it records time, coin-in and total winnings. There's also a clock in the corner. (I'm not sure how robust it is regarding changing games, but considering the thought they appear to have put into it, records across different games probably works smoothly.)

Quote: Venthus

Aha, yes, thank you!

The machines looked really nice and pretty comfortable. The design aesthetic isn't quite my taste, but assuming the machine's not lying about its info, it might be interesting to try it for a bit.

You're welcome.

With Gaming Regulations being as they are, I seriously doubt if you will have to worry about the game lying about its information. This is especially the case since there are places like WoO out there where you could input a Video Poker Paytable or a Keno Paytable and have the site calculate the ER% immediately.

Quote:

One feature I noticed that I neglected to mention (and doesn't appear to be mentioned in that article) is that it had a session counter. You could turn it on and it records time, coin-in and total winnings. There's also a clock in the corner. (I'm not sure how robust it is regarding changing games, but considering the thought they appear to have put into it, records across different games probably works smoothly.)

I suppose that would be useful for the coin-in and time, but one should always know where one's total winnings/losses are at any given time. I would hope so, at least.

The clock seems like an interesting feature. Is it a clock or a timer? Clocks and casinos usually do not go hand-in-hand the vast majority of the time as the House generally wants you to lose track of the time. I suppose with everyone carrying cell phones now, though, that it is probably somewhat pointless not to have clocks here and there given that you can just whip your phone out to check the time.

I am very familiar with U1, and I'm sure the returns are correct. I've done math on some of their games and they have always been spot on.

Quote: CrystalMath

I am very familiar with U1, and I'm sure the returns are correct. I've done math on some of their games and they have always been spot on.

What do you think of the Optimal Hold option?

I don't play much VP, but in my opinion, I would hate something like that because I'd hardly be engaged in the game, at that point. I don't play much VP, but have played the WoO practice game enough to know that I make very few mistakes. I don't even know that I make enough mistakes to cover the 1% ER that I would be losing. Even if I did make that many mistakes, I'd rather be engaged.

It seems to me that you might as well just pre-configure win/loss parameters into the machine and sit back and watch it do its thing until you hit the Stop-Win point or blow out whatever you put into the machine if you are going to do it that way.

Quote: Mission146

What do you think of the Optimal Hold option?

I don't play much VP, but in my opinion, I would hate something like that because I'd hardly be engaged in the game, at that point. I don't play much VP, but have played the WoO practice game enough to know that I make very few mistakes. I don't even know that I make enough mistakes to cover the 1% ER that I would be losing. Even if I did make that many mistakes, I'd rather be engaged.

It seems to me that you might as well just pre-configure win/loss parameters into the machine and sit back and watch it do its thing until you hit the Stop-Win point or blow out whatever you put into the machine if you are going to do it that way.

Anyone semi-serious about video poker can do better than 99% ER accuracy. Generally yeah, I'm not a fan of auto-holding. I dealt with it at Alabama racinos for awhile and occasionally I would just hold all my garbage cards and hope for a "genie" to appear instead. Or throw away my trips just to see them come back, or improve. All game results had to be determined by bingo draws...lol

Quote: tringlomane

Anyone semi-serious about video poker can do better than 99% ER accuracy. Generally yeah, I'm not a fan of auto-holding. I dealt with it at Alabama racinos for awhile and occasionally I would just hold all my garbage cards and hope for a "genie" to appear instead. Or throw away my trips just to see them come back, or improve. All game results had to be determined by bingo draws...lol

Class II VLT's, good times. The thing about the auto-holds on those is that they are also not always the optimal decision, whereas this game is promising that the auto-holds will have maximum ER, just on the 1% reduced paytable.

Here's something about knowing how those things work. I could see throwing away trips knowing they will be replaced by Trips, Quads or a FH, but could you bring yourself to throw away something like a Straight Flush? Logically, you know it's coming back, at worst, in a different suit, but could you do it?

Quote: Mission146

Class II VLT's, good times. The thing about the auto-holds on those is that they are also not always the optimal decision, whereas this game is promising that the auto-holds will have maximum ER, just on the 1% reduced paytable.

Here's something about knowing how those things work. I could see throwing away trips knowing they will be replaced by Trips, Quads or a FH, but could you bring yourself to throw away something like a Straight Flush? Logically, you know it's coming back, at worst, in a different suit, but could you do it?

Yeah, the autohold on Class II seems to always hold a card even with garbage. Maybe to signify to you it's "working". I never had a dealt hand that high there (but a dealt royal and dealt steel wheel in Vegas, go figure), but if I got quads or better I probably just hold on to it, just in case. Unless I make a decent sidebet with an unknowledgeable player. I never made such a side bet though. I was worried I would ruin other people's "fun" by pointing out the game is not random.

Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, the autohold on Class II seems to always hold a card even with garbage. Maybe to signify to you it's "working". I never had a dealt hand that high there (but a dealt royal and dealt steel wheel in Vegas, go figure), but if I got quads or better I probably just hold on to it, just in case. Unless I make a decent sidebet with an unknowledgeable player. I never made such a side bet though. I was worried I would ruin other people's "fun" by pointing out the game is not random.

I don't know, you might be doing them a favor to point that out. The problem with those Class II's is that someone comes to a site like WoO or to this very message board, and they read the material and learn the game and then go to that casino thinking they're in the good at slightly Over/Under 100% ER with perfect play. They might even have their hand-held Internet machine phone and can access the website while playing and figure out the optimal play every time, and absolutely none of it matters. The paytable doesn't matter, the paytable could reflect 150% ER and it makes no difference.

I know that you know this, but just in case anyone else reads the thread, I wanted to point out that the results are still random prior to the initial hand being drawn. The randomized results coming from a RNG that selects from a pool of results/pays and uses the, "Video Poker," game as nothing more than an instrument to present the result of your bet. It could just as easily be a blank screen with nothing except text saying:

Bet: Win:

Result---

Bet: 1 Win: 20

Or something like that. I'd say that nobody would ever play that game, but I saw a, "Green Machine," slot machine that doesn't seem to be that far off. Basically, you have 5 Reels at $1.00/Reel (but you can play less than the full five) and there are images of bills on there which cycle through and wherever they stop is what you get paid on that reel. I tried it out once, dreadfully boring, managed to come out ahead $110 after four pulls, but never played it again and have no plans to do so.

I don't pay much attention to machines-- is there any easy way to determine if a unit is Class II (and, therefore, should be avoided or not, depending on their preference for style of play)?

I think Circus Circus has an example of one of those machines. Felt profoundly pointless to me, even moreso than slots.

Quote: Mission146

I don't know, you might be doing them a favor to point that out. The problem with those Class II's is that someone comes to a site like WoO or to this very message board, and they read the material and learn the game and then go to that casino thinking they're in the good at slightly Over/Under 100% ER with perfect play. They might even have their hand-held Internet machine phone and can access the website while playing and figure out the optimal play every time, and absolutely none of it matters. The paytable doesn't matter, the paytable could reflect 150% ER and it makes no difference.

Yeah, I also didn't ruin people's fun as well because I was rarely playing next to people to begin with. I think the autohold feature actually kept more people away. The paytables were not +EV, but they were often full pay. But at least in Alabama, it was fairly clear that bingo draws were being run. There had to be a display of your card and a list of balls drawn. Somehow I was lucky enough to get like 21 hits in 48ish calls in a particular pattern to win my only slot jackpot ever on a Texas Tea machine. So Class II gaming actually has been good to me. :)

Quote: Venthus

I don't pay much attention to machines-- is there any easy way to determine if a unit is Class II (and, therefore, should be avoided or not, depending on their preference for style of play)?

I think Circus Circus has an example of one of those machines. Felt profoundly pointless to me, even moreso than slots.

I doubt it...Class II should be illegal in Nevada. What machine are you referring to?

For video poker, the ways to determine Class II is to see if there is something like a bingo card displayed on your machine. Also while playing for cheap you can decide to hold garbage and eventually you'll see a winner, or throw away a winner and always get that hand or better back.

" Or something like that. I'd say that nobody would ever play that game, but I saw a, "Green Machine," slot machine that doesn't seem to be that far off. Basically, you have 5 Reels at $1.00/Reel (but you can play less than the full five) and there are images of bills on there which cycle through and wherever they stop is what you get paid on that reel. I tried it out once, dreadfully boring, managed to come out ahead $110 after four pulls, but never played it again and have no plans to do so. "

My wife use to kill that machine. Ameristar had a bank of three of them. She would play all 5 until she hit, then TITO and on to next machine. This went on for about 2 weeks. Then one night they were roped off. I know that drill. Mardi Gras does it all the time. New
bank of penny slots, paying good, then roped off after 2 weeks or 30 days. Why ? Because you need to have gaming there to change the payout chip. Might just be a toggle or software change now.

Anyway, a couple of months later the bank of three was one. Did not see any last time I was at Ameristar.

I wouldn't trust autohold. I don't think it is required to be perfect, and it is not evaluated by 3rd party laboratories.

Quote: Mission146

I suppose that would be useful for the coin-in and time, but one should always know where one's total winnings/losses are at any given time. I would hope so, at least.

I guess it might be useful for people who insert multiple tickets and lose track? Though losing track of how much money you have is always a bad idea... You could get the amount you've won by comparing your current cash against the coin-in easily enough, but convenience and extra data are a plus in my opinion.

Quote: Mission146

The clock seems like an interesting feature. Is it a clock or a timer? Clocks and casinos usually do not go hand-in-hand the vast majority of the time as the House generally wants you to lose track of the time. I suppose with everyone carrying cell phones now, though, that it is probably somewhat pointless not to have clocks here and there given that you can just whip your phone out to check the time.

It's a clock. Specifically, a sort of 'ghost' analog clock. I didn't check if the time was correct, but it probably was.

On a progressive, would not the hold strategy change occasionally when the jackpot reached a certain level ?

Quote: tringlomane

I doubt it...Class II should be illegal in Nevada. What machine are you referring to?

Oh, I was referring to the 'Green Money' machine, or whatever it's called, that resembles a slot machine, but it just has a bunch of bills on it.

Quote: tringlomane

For video poker, the ways to determine Class II is to see if there is something like a bingo card displayed on your machine. Also while playing for cheap you can decide to hold garbage and eventually you'll see a winner, or throw away a winner and always get that hand or better back.

Ahh, gotcha. I actually noticed that on a few machines in... California, I believe. (Temecula region, north of San Diego. By Harrah's Rincon, if you're familiar with the area.) I was wondering about how it worked, dropped a few dollars in, felt something was amiss, and left.