5Dimes online casino .. Rigged? i got the data

Okay i just tried the 5Dimes casino online because they have pretty good blackjack games (House edge under 0.1%) but unfortunately, my little trip didn't go so well

Here are the data of my last session:

Hands: 576
Sum of original bets: 1150$
Sum of Final bet (due to double and splits): 1258$
Gain/losses: -95$
Payout %: 92.45% !!

The game i played in order to gain the deposit bonus was a 1 deck game, stand all 17, double 9-11, split to 4 hands, no double after split and late surrender on dealer's 10 only. According to the wizard of odds and his list of rule variations, the house edge is a tiny 0.11%

I used the whole way a 2$ bet size (sometimes 1 or 4 but nothing over, no big donkwager) with the optimal strategy for this game and i hit this unbelievable variance .. is this usual? i don't think we can lose that much easily on a blackjack session where the house has a so tiny edge ..

To confirm my though, i went to the wizard of odds website and i found in the appendix 4, details on the standard deviation in blackjack, that the odds of losing 47 units of wager by badluck over 500-600 hands was a bit less than 5% chance.

Right after that session i was quite frustrated by the variance, so i decided to take a break, but i quickly changed my mind and told myself that the odds had to change somehow (stupid i agree). So here i am playing another game, the 5deck bonus blackjack with the folowing set of rules:

After each hand played, a new 5 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. Player blackjack is automatic winner. Blackjack pays 3/2. Dealer stands on soft 17. Double down on all 2-card combinations, even after splits. Split pairs up to 3 times. May split aces once. Late surrender available, even after splits. Insurance pays 9/4. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.

These rules gives an house edge of exacly 0%, but this is obviously not the result i got. Again, i lost a little more than 150$ under aproximately the same amount of time and hands and i have the data to support it. I asked in the live chat to send me the history of all hand i played, and all i need to do now is to compute them to have a pretty solid proof that this site is totally rigged. Yesterday, i also had a similar session at that same website, so that's a 3rd one ..

By the time i play here, i deposited in total 500$ + around 100$ of bonus and right now i stand with a poor 100$ in my bankroll and everything happened under around 3k hands of blackjack, if not less. Using my usual 2$ bet, that's a total of 250 unit of wager lost in about 3k hands, wich has less than 0.01% chance to occur.

My plan is actually to compute the full hand history data and give the probability of this event happening, and then talk to a manager and try to claim my money back, but before doing that, i want all the chances on my side so do you guys have any tips to give me? does all this sounds unfair to you? Because maybe it's just me and my results are totaly fair .. ?!?

Thanks for your reply!

Quote: PhilGooD

These rules gives an house edge of exacly 0%, but this is obviously not the result i got.!

The edge isn't going to manifest itself on such a
small number of hands. Variance is what rules
short term play, not the edge.

I agree, it's about variance and i want to know if it's usual to get that kind of variance 3 times in a row

Nothing is unusual in short term variance. Laymen
call variance 'luck'. If you keep playing and it keeps
happening, thats a different story.

i edited my first post and added this info:

By the time i play here, i deposited in total 500$ + around 100$ of bonus and right now i stand with a poor 100$ in my bankroll and everything happened under around 3k hands of blackjack, if not less. Using my usual 2$ bet, that's a total of 250 unit of wager lost in about 3k hands, wich has less than 0.01% chance to occur.

it doesn't really seems to stop .. the chances that this event occur really makes me think that there is something wrong out there

Quote: PhilGooD

the chances that this event occur really makes me think that there is something wrong out there

I never played an online casino that didn't have
weird results. Never again..

Right, at $2 a hand if ya get lucky and win $300, try cashing out, but lose $10G's at $2 a pop it aint enuff data (or $), AND you still have no recouse.
Treat it like poison.

N&B

This has to be an interesting point here. I just hoped that things would have been good and well, and also by having a lot of good things to do when going to another online casino in the future.
________________________
MyBet Casino

I dunno, guys. I use 5Dimes for sports for maybe $500/day. Data indicates they're among the biggest books on the planet. Would they get that big bilking a couple bills here and there? I lose money at their casino. But I doubt they're purposely cheating me. Variance is a bitch.

Quote: PhilGooD

Hands: 576
Sum of original bets: 1150$
Sum of Final bet (due to double and splits): 1258$
Gain/losses: -95$
Payout %: 92.45% !!

If you bet $2 a hand shouldn't 576 hands be $1152? Let's assume the 576 is right.

The standard deviation on 576 hands is sqr(576)*1.155 = 27.72

You lost $95, which at $2 a bet is 95/2 = 47.5 units.

Assuming zero house edge, you were 47.5/27.72 = 1.7136 standard deviations south of expectations. The probability of luck that bad, or worse, is 4.33%.

My verdict -- could have easily been ordinary bad luck. Unless I misunderstood something, I find in favor of 5 Dimes.

I agree with you, I feel that 5dimes is definitely fair in its cards. For reference, I just placed 50 dollars on the site today and cashed out 1050 from their 6-deck blackjack game with favorable rules. Now, I know that's a ridiculous streak of positive variance, but I doubt that a site that goes through all the trouble to significantly rig their cards would admit such a win.

I just have one question regarding 5dimes, specifically this:
http://www.5dimes.com/independent.html, analysis by Michael Shackleford.

It indicates a return of -0.01646 on Blackjack, or 98.35%, or HA of -1.65%. Another document states a return of 98.8% or HA of -1.2%.
Isn't that a horribly high house edge for Blackjack? What's the deal with that?

Quote: P90

It indicates a return of -0.01646 on Blackjack, or 98.35%, or HA of -1.65%. Another document states a return of 98.8% or HA of -1.2%.
Isn't that a horribly high house edge for Blackjack? What's the deal with that?

That was based on actual results. Player mistakes will add about 1% to the house advantage, I think more in an online game. When I used to play at a multi-player table at Casino on Net the caliber of play was terrible.

I see, so you didn't use a robot to play through and record the statistics, as was my first assumption, but player hand records. That explains it.

Quote: PhilGooD

My plan is actually to compute the full hand history data and give the probability of this event happening, and then talk to a manager and try to claim my money back

Not going to happen. The definition of "betting" includes the potential loss of that bet. Sorry! If you can't afford to gamble, don't do it.

JMHO on a rather stale topic.

If you would like to see what happens, just go to a reputable casino that offers a "FreePlay" or "Practice" casino... there are several. Start wagering the play money, and tell us what happens.

/MHO

5Dimes online casino is 100% not fare, I lost on hands even when i had 21 lots of pushes like 4 in a roll one night after upping my wager to $150 per hand, then when i bet back to $5 hands i would win like 3 out of 10 hands cause the dealer on the non live game would always get a push most of times. I seem to always get dealt 13 on big money hands, then 20 on $5 dollar hands. I told my girlfriend one night check this out i have 20 dealers has a 3 up card, i said watch when the dealers card card flips to show face value it will be a 8? BOOM it was a 8 =11 then here comes the queen =21 lost so many big hands like that it would never happen in real life. I am not just talking one night! i am talking every night i played. So yes i chat with them and said i am done, they will steal all your casino money. and for the live rooms same deal, funny how the video goes out for up to 30 seconds on big money hands, and dealer ends up with a 5 card 21 draw????

Well, I'm convinced.

just curious i have posted this before but never got a real answer, are the cards just an animation which animate a game based on the percentage- the reason I ask is I have literally gotten hands on 5dimes in pai gow of jack high and WON and juts earlier today got aces full of kings and lost- the odds of this are truly staggering unless in face the rng is just based on win loss and not a tryue random number generator of cards

really hope the wizard chimes in on this

VLT PGP?

Made a couple of posts at Beating Bonuses forum with a similar issue / video poker.


http://www.beatingbonuses.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89512&postcount=63



http://www.beatingbonuses.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89515&postcount=65

Quote: 4ofaKind

Made a couple of posts at Beating Bonuses forum with a similar issue / video poker.


http://www.beatingbonuses.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89512&postcount=63



http://www.beatingbonuses.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89515&postcount=65

I'm not going to argue if the online casinos are random or not. But you comments about serious gamblers being degenerate asshole nickle and dime slot players. Is not true, individuals have made 100's of thousands online and luck had nothing to do with it.

Quote: AxelWolf

Is not true, individuals have made 100's of thousands online and luck had nothing to do with it.

They have indeed. One such started the thread at Beating Bonuses that 4OAK linked to (you're a serial link-to-my-own-posts-at-other-forums, 4OAK, it's a tad narcissistic I must say), and luck had nothing to do with those 100s of gs indeed. He had thought about requesting Mike's input, but was put off by the suggestion that Mike "would already be spending too much time on the 4 SD events" to bother.

It seems that online gamblers are so plagued with awful results that noone has any time to do anything about it. Nice business to have a slice of.

Quote: AxelWolf

But you comments about serious gamblers being degenerate asshole nickle and dime slot players.
Is not true, individuals have made 100's of thousands online and luck had nothing to do with it.

I didn’t say smart gamblers are degenerate asshole nickel and dime slot players. Smart gamblers certainly wouldn't be wasting much time playing slot machines. Smart gamblers wouldn’t risk their money online under the present possible conditions that all casinos have with the simple click of a mouse which has been proven time and time again.

Excluding poker, the days of making hundreds of thousands of dollars at online casinos with +EV bonuses is a dead issue and only arises by error and is quickly corrected today before any serious damage is done to the casinos. If you should beat a bonus today be ready for your play to be put under a microscope. You probably aren't getting paid anyhow for not playing within the spirit of the bonus, or run the risk of being accused of outsmarting their programed slot machines.

Nickel and dime slot player’s flood the casinos hoping to strike a big one, then only have to worry about getting paid.

My stubborn views about how online casinos presently still have the privilege to operate are just my opinions. I prefer to wait for real regulation and regulation enforcement and know I'm losing my money fairly.

Quote: 4ofaKind

I didn’t say smart gamblers are degenerate asshole nickel and dime slot players. Smart gamblers certainly wouldn't be wasting much time playing slot machines. Smart gamblers wouldn’t risk their money online under the present possible conditions that all casinos have with the simple click of a mouse which has been proven time and time again.

Excluding poker, the days of making hundreds of thousands of dollars at online casinos with +EV bonuses is a dead issue and only arises by error and is quickly corrected today before any serious damage is done to the casinos. If you should beat a bonus today be ready for your play to be put under a microscope. You probably aren't getting paid anyhow for not playing within the spirit of the bonus, or run the risk of being accused of outsmarting their programed slot machines.

Nickel and dime slot player’s flood the casinos hoping to strike a big one, then only have to worry about getting paid.

My stubborn views about how online casinos presently still have the privilege to operate are just my opinions. I prefer to wait for real regulation and regulation enforcement and know I'm losing my money fairly.

Makes sense what your saying, and I agree (I get your frustration) There seem to be very few trustworthy online casinos(I trust Bovada, They pay)the golden years seemed to have passed.

Originally, I had high hopes, thinking how great regulated online gaming would be. After some thought, I changed my mind on how wonderful regulation would be. Other then an occasional mistake, I'm not so sure if it will be as good as I once thought it would be. especially for small time affiliates. Who know's what things will look like in 5 years if the competition gets fierce.

I wonder if gambling will soon be Americas favorite pass time? Personally I can only hope this is the case I want more casinos. The more competition the better

If there is debate about the legitimacy of the cards in online blackjack, don't play. I've gotten burned in my younger days by that (win a little, lose it all or lose a lot and then squeak back and win ten bucks) and will never do it again.