Online poker fraud indictments

Full article here

Quote:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The founders of the three largest Internet poker companies have been indicted for running illegal gambling operations, federal law enforcement officials said Friday.

The United States Attorney in New York unsealed the indictment against eleven people, including the founders of PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker, and Absolute Poker. The charges include bank fraud, money laundering and illegal gambling offenses.

Wow! This is major news for online poker. It will be very tough for players who have money on these sites to withdraw their funds in the coming days.

This is big. Check out the web site for absolutepoker.com. The other two sites are still up at this time.

I just successfully signed up for a S-n-G on FTP, but unregistered real quick. Why bother playing till this crisis has cleared? I did notice that 2 of the 6 people who played in that same sng were from USA though. So we (or at least I) can still play.

I look forward to all the 20-somethings who'll move to Las Vegas to get their poker fix in the months to come. Come to zippy!

bwahahahahaha!

I used to love to play online poker, but in the last few years haven't had much time to do so.

The more I read about this, the bigger the news actually is for the industry. Zippy might be right that all of these "online poker pros" may have to move to Las Vegas and play live games. But yes, this is a crisis for online poker and one of huge proportions.

I still have a couple of thousand dollars sitting at pokerstars... Any bets if I will ever get it back.

It kinda reminds me of the axes to the doors of illegal gambling parlors. (which I've only seen in film)

I have a feeling there may still be a big fight coming on technical issues, assuming the online sites were trying to skirt by on some issues in gray areas of the law. Maybe not though. Seems like that would be the way to go, if you're trying your best to run something semi quasi respectable but not legal perhaps.

2 plus 2 is down due to all the traffic to get details. Good luck getting your money. If you know and trust someone in Canada or overseas, transfer your money to him and have him send you a check. But do it now before the Feds target that strategy.

Guess I erred by posting earlier about this in the then-most-recent existing thread about on-line gambling. I didn't have anything significant to offer other than the link, so I didn't bother to start a new thread.

Big news. The hammer came down on those guys. They did freeze the bank accounts, though. I would hope they would pay back the players first, once is all said and done. Who knows what the government is thinking, though.

It sounds real bad for the Owners. The government had this stuff organized and co-ordinated on a large scale. Usually they do not take this kind of drastic action unless they have all of their cards in a row.

Interesting....

But... but... I thought those were all "not a gambling website(s)?"

Well, the problem that I see here is this : the government is upset because these people were laundering money that was being used to gamble illegally. They weren't supposed to accept funds that were being used for gambling from this country and tried to play it off as if the money was being used for legitimate business. So, the money in their account that they either have or haven't frozen wouldn't just get given to the players. If anything, I could see the government seizing the raked amount (their revenue) and if anything is left after that (similar to a bankruptcy hearing) then those funds would be distributed to players. Either way I really don't see a whole lot of good happening because the U.S. players really can't say, "oh, I didn't know it was illegal".

Quote: Doc

Guess I erred by posting earlier about this in the then-most-recent existing thread about on-line gambling. I didn't have anything significant to offer other than the link, so I didn't bother to start a new thread.

It's all in the presentation, Doc!

I had looked for a thread about it before posting. I had expected the story to be along the lines of the UB collusion thing and was stunned to see the big guys named. And I hadn't considered the ramifications for live poker in Vegas, which could have an impact on the WSOP field--will they pay for Main Event seats people have won in online tourneys?

Holy Cow. Richard Marcus has been saying for years that the poker sites are as crooked as they can get. He also says a number of famous players are into it up to their necks. Well, goodbye to PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker, they'll never be back. If you had any money there, you can kiss it goodbye..

What's the situation at our benefactor, Bodog?

Poker stars and full tilt are still up and running as of 5 minutes ago. Being Canadian and cheap I have been playing with play money for the past 2 years. I do have $2.00 won on freerolls though. Guess the U.S. Government can use that.

High Stakes Poker is probably gone too. They're totally sponsored by online poker and the reason the players are there is, most of them are getting kick backs from the poker sites also.

Reading the poker forums, Full Tilt's checks are bouncing and there's a mass panic of people trying to get their money out.

Look at this, the plot gets thicker and thicker. A Vegas tie in too..


BoyWonder' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.businessinsider.com/boy-genius-online-poker-scandal-2011-4]BoyWonder

Prosecutors are seeking to immediately shut down the sites and to eventually send the executives to jail and to recover $3 billion from the companies. By Friday afternoon Full Tilt Poker’s site displayed a message explaining that “this domain name has been seized by the F.B.I. pursuant to an Arrest Warrant.”


GUILTY AS CHARGED OF RECREATION WITHOUT TAXATION !!

I actually had been trying to withdraw my paltry sum from PStars recently, but for whatever reason the check didn't arrive, so they put the $$ back into my PStars account. I have since asked for a new check to be issued. We'll see.

I don't mind the US Gov't actually having to prove their case rather than trying to bully everyone around. Of course the next step is when US allows MGM, Harrah's, etc to set up licensed internet poker. It will be interesting to see what the WTO says about that.

US has already lost a WTO judgment vs Antigua re: Internet Gambling several years ago, but the US refused to abide by the ruling, saying 'oh that's not what we agreed to when we joined WTO' and since Antigua is so small there isn't much they can do to retaliate.

Alot of this is like going after rum runners by attacking their trade in sugar used to make the rum.

Some offshore sites said No USA players. Some didn't. The servers were all in foreign "flags of convenience" locations that allow anything if palms are greased.

The achilles heel has always been the payment processors. Its well known that Vegas casinos have corporate entities in California with nice sounding names that will be neutral sounding in check registers. There is a phrase we've all seen on the hotel TV channel "Movie Title Will Not Appear on the Bill". Payments are handled with discretion in Vegas.

There is no White Hat entity in the processing of poker payments. Bookies have a Pick Up and Deliver system wherein large sums of cash are handled with trust. The markets and bazaars of the Middle East have money transfer specialists that do business under the Arabic word for trust. Payments show up in the account specified and the customer gets the paperwork back.

Money laundering? Its "laundered" only because US laws declare it to be dirty.

The defendants include Isai Scheinberg and Paul Tate of Poker Stars; Raymond Bitar and Nelson Burtnick of Full Tilt Poker; and Scott Tom and Brent Beckley of Absolute Poker.

I'm amazed at the number of people on the forums saying they play poker for a living and are now out of a job.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm amazed at the number of people on the forums saying they play poker for a living and are now out of a job.

Maybe there will be tens of thousands of online poker player who will have to move to Canada!

Well, Steve Wynn just backed out of his recent alliance with PokerStars. "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

This is the first step towards actually having legalized online poker in the US. No way were these sites going to get a free pass. Momentum has been building in several states and in D.C. to legalize it and I think that's what forced DOJ to act. Obviously they've been working on this for a while but the legalization movement forced indictments now. When the dust settles players will get paid, DOJ forced Neteller to pay and I can't see them doing differently here. Stars and Tilt may be done though so it might actually be a good thing that the Feds have the money, more likely you get paid.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm amazed at the number of people on the forums saying they play poker for a living and are now out of a job.

So they're out of a job, and broke also. Come to Vegas, baby! Plenty of poker tables for ya right here! I can hardly wait!

What's the under/over on how much the sites will have send to the treasury? Can't see any fat cats doing anytime. Nothing will change on Wall Street till high rollers are sent to Attica, not Club Fed.

“The key to the indictment is the bank fraud conspiracy charge. The factual basis for that charge includes the alleged misrepresentations about the nature of the transactions being processed, in effect, a cover-up,” says Kevin Di Gregory, a former federal prosecutor who is now a partner at Manatt, Phelps & Phillips. “The government will argue that whether poker was gambling is irrelevant to proving this charge, but that nevertheless the efforts to mask the transactions suggests the defendants knew the gambling activity behind them was illegal.

Quote: Altut

The law is the law, and even though it'll likely soon change so we all can participate, learn to wait instead of looking for ways to manipulate the system.

But it's a stupid law, and all us smart folks are tired of waiting for the stupid people in class to catch up. It was the same way with Prohibition in the 20's. And Marijuana laws now. Wise up.

What are the implications for online sportsbooks now, if any? Will they be next?

Also, why would the government reimburse seized funds to the players when they were involved in an illegal activity?

Quote: clarkacal

What are the implications for online sportsbooks now, if any? Will they be next?

Also, why would the government reimburse seized funds to the players when they were involved in an illegal activity?

Sportsbooks have always been under fire, I don't see any change.

Government will make sure players get their money because they aren't going to piss off the electorate more than they already have. Just like when the Neteller situation went down. DOJ made sure everyone got their money but it took time.

Quote: Altut

I applaud the Government's action. Anyone from the US who thinks they're being slick & tricky by using agents and whatever methods to xfer $$ to online gambling sites should get slapped down hard. The law is the law, and even though it'll likely soon change so we all can participate, learn to wait instead of looking for ways to manipulate the system.

I say make the poker sites pay the Government BIG and use it to pay down the deficit. I actually hope all such sites permanently freeze all US accounts.

Using funds of Swedish (or whatever) players to pay government debt seems more than a little unethical.

Quote: Wizard

This is big. Check out the web site for absolutepoker.com. The other two sites are still up at this time.

Poker Stars is down

I wonder what the impact will be on for live poker now that people can't play online.

All our drug raids do is keep the prices high to support the dealers. Legalization would mean the end to too many DEA agents, prosecutors, prison guards, treatment centers, etc.

With gambling, what is it? Do Indian casinos have the kind of clout that keep politicians in line? Who is really behind this seizure?

edited

Quote: Altut

Anyone who takes chances going against "stupid laws" has to be, well....STUPID! No one's gonna care what the person getting nailed thinks of the law. It's just like the millions who get pulled over thinking the speed limit is set too low for the road they're on and the type car they're driving. Doesn't change one thing--the ticket's a-coming either way. As it well should. The same with the grass freaks who think they know more about the laws and drugs than the authorities. As long as the law says it's illegal, if it's broken you're gonna get pinched. You don't like that or you don't think it's fair, try to get it changed. But until that time comes, the bad boys will pay.

For every common sense free-thinker, there are thousands of sheeple like you who just do what you're told.

Quote: pacomartin

Quote: Wizard

This is big. Check out the web site for absolutepoker.com. The other two sites are still up at this time.

Poker Stars is down

I wonder what the impact will be on for live poker now that people can't play online.

Was going to update that , you beat me to it. What a crappy way to start the day, finding it is down. As I posted on Facebook, I am glad the government has things like border security and the budget so in order they have time for this nonsense.

So, how many more are ready to join the Tea Party Movement? We have been telling you for 2 years what happens when people start to give up "freedom" in exchange for "free health care."

Quote: Ayecarumba

What's the situation at our benefactor, Bodog?

As of 0830 EDT the sportsbook is UP. Places todays action with no issues.

Did not try poker or the casino.

Does anyone have any idea how much money is being spent on prosecuting these losers? The US isn't planning on taking a loss in this action. I quit playing online poker for money when I watched a guy go all-in 7 hands in a row with nothing and win them all. And I also saw a quote about online casinos that has stuck with me for a long time....."Never gamble at a casino that uses invisible dice!"...might also apply to cards you can't hold in your hand!

Quote: zippyboy

For every common sense free-thinker, there are thousands of sheeple like you who just do what you're told.

Thank goodness. I don't have much interest in having to deal with free-thinking anarchy.

Quote: Doc

Thank goodness. I don't have much interest in having to deal with free-thinking anarchy.

Yeah, really--damn that Rosa Parks, anyway!






(Yes, I'm being sarcastic...)

Quote: zippyboy

For every common sense free-thinker, there are thousands of sheeple like you who just do what you're told.

Our prisons are full of nothing but free thinkers.

What a shaft

I would just like to say. Finally those bastards will get theirs. I have been tring for years to show poker fraud on this sites in forums, but their
was always some people that believe if they can't see it, or didn't discover it first had to knock or make little of my spelling, and anything else to ingore my findings.
I have shown in fulltilts dealt flops alone where in deed unprobable poker odds. Come on every flop had to have 2 same suit cards, and 2 cards that suppoerted in a straight. example 7c Ac 8d 10c 2c Js Qd 5d Kh 5c 6c 10s Ac 10s 5c 8s 2s Ad 9d Ks 8d 4d 8d Qc 7d Ks 10s if the flop didn't have a pair dealt in it 7s 8s 7c, or full suited flop 6s 9s 4s they would deal the 2suit 2 straight support cards. This type of flop over 92% of the time, and these flops would make the online poker sites more rake, because more players would have playable pocket cards to bet on. Some thing that simple, and hard for the amature once a week player to notice it.
And all the rest of poker unprobables which is the A card was the most dealt card for the river. stack (a)2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. total of 8 cards, stack(b) 10 J q k A total of 5 cards, if you count all the cards fulltilt dealt out. Stack(b) somehow has more cards dealt out. And dealing low pocket cards for 60 hand of undesirable poker cards. And thats not all of my oddities found in the online poker games. So you naysayers like TJteddybear(I told you. now how does crow taste?) now mouth off that nobody cares. And to the Wizard, see we could of stomp them. Sorry my editing skills sucked, and my writing skills. But my card counting abilities, and observation on cards is good.

Quote: 40487

I would just like to say. Finally those bastards will get theirs. I have been tring for years to show poker fraud on this sites in forums, but their
was always some people that believe if they can't see it, or didn't discover it first had to knock or make little of my spelling, and anything else to ingore my findings.
I have shown in fulltilts dealt flops alone where in deed unprobable poker odds. Come on every flop had to have 2 same suit cards, and 2 cards that suppoerted in a straight. example 7c Ac 8d 10c 2c Js Qd 5d Kh 5c 6c 10s Ac 10s 5c 8s 2s Ad 9d Ks 8d 4d 8d Qc 7d Ks 10s if the flop didn't have a pair dealt in it 7s 8s 7c, or full suited flop 6s 9s 4s they would deal the 2suit 2 straight support cards. This type of flop over 92% of the time, and these flops would make the online poker sites more rake, because more players would have playable pocket cards to bet on. Some thing that simple, and hard for the amature once a week player to notice it.
And all the rest of poker unprobables which is the A card was the most dealt card for the river. stack (a)2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. total of 8 cards, stack(b) 10 J q k A total of 5 cards, if you count all the cards fulltilt dealt out. Stack(b) somehow has more cards dealt out. And dealing low pocket cards for 60 hand of undesirable poker cards. And thats not all of my oddities found in the online poker games. So you naysayers like TJteddybear(I told you. now how does crow taste?) now mouth off that nobody cares. And to the Wizard, see we could of stomp them. Sorry my editing skills sucked, and my writing skills. But my card counting abilities, and observation on cards is good.

You're pretty much nuts. The problems these guys are in have nothing to do with supposedly having rigged games. And don't you think if they did have rigged games that they would have been charged with that also? No this has to do with bank fraud. Go get some more tinfoil, you probably need a new hat.

Quote: JimMorrison

You're pretty much nuts. The problems these guys are in have nothing to do with supposedly having rigged games. And don't you think if they did have rigged games that they would have been charged with that also? No this has to do with bank fraud. Go get some more tinfoil, you probably need a new hat.

+1. These conspiracy theorists about how rigged FTP and PokerStars supposedly are sound just like sore losers to me.

"Oh, I lost... so the game must have been rigged... after all, it couldn't be my fault..."

Quote: Altut

Anyone who believes online casinos don't cheat people are hopelessly addicted to playing online and don't want it ever to be the way clear thinking people know it is.

I wish there were more clear thinking people then, I'd have less competition. I've made my money playing online casinos for 7 years now. Sure some are cheats but they are easily avoided. The vast majority and all of the well known software providers run a clean game (i.e non-rigged software). Now their terms for bonus money might be shady sometimes but they don't cheat. I love people who sit there and throw out conspiracy stuff without any real world experience at what they're talking about. Please continue to be a clear thinking person, it's better for my wallet that way.

I read on one of the poker forums that a high level player got called today by FullTilt and hemmed and hawed about how they can't do anything right now about getting him his 50K and were 'working on it'. He actually told the player he should think about setting up residence in Canada. In other words, FullTilt knows its going to a loooooooog time, if ever, before they refund Americans any money.

JimMorrison wake up..You don't think these outstanding men would ever think about purchasing a software that would being in more money on rakes. A software
that would intise more players in betting by dealing flops with certain cards that more player will gamble on, and you would have to know that it's in the DNA of the software before it is easily dectected. A skilled poker investorgator would need 100s of hands before he becomes alert to the schme. And if you set this software to small stakes where new players wouldn't detect it, and who would look at hudreds of hands of a new player thats has questions? Poker investorgators seem to live in a world of odds, and the odds of a new player discovering a scam, that thousands of others haven't the chancea are slim, and none. So no attention is given.
And online poker was caught the attention of this nations youth, not the middle age, or the old. And with these young players will not complain with loosing number of hands to unprobable odds. They will not know what to look for.

Great example watched a player say "nice hand" to another player that won on a desperate all in bluff, and was called by two other players
with a 6-5 he bets at pre-flop. 2 players called A-k and KK. Flop was A K 2. 6-5 player all in after flop, 2 players called and these cards where dealt 3 4. What does that mean? Well online poker has players congradulating other players winning in these manner of slop poker. And having 1,000s of new players reading "nice hand" after seeing these types of hands winning they start believing is normal. And when that happens you can scam the hell out of them. I folded this hand with pockets 2s. I would of played this hand after the flop. And what percentage of odds for the 6-5 to win? And the percentage of the KK to win? Whatever the percentages the smaller odd percentage will beat the largest one more times, and even in all in hands. How can that be? Not last week or today, but everyday.
Funny is when you ask a poker question to any online poker support. Its a game of luck, and chance. Theirs no odds
in online poker thats what they told me, and I bet each one privately. Today I read their comments, that poker is a game of skill, not chance. Funny tell the mass public the truth. You cant lie to the whole nation but you can one at a time in chat window.

Theirs more to this than you know. Sometimes you have to Al capone things in law. If you know what that means. You know what their doing, but can't prove it with out showing how you obtain certain proof, and you want to keep that. So get them for what you can.
We must not conceal from ourselves that no improvement in the present is possible without a severe struggle; for the handful of those who are really determined to do something is minute in comparison with the mass of the lukewarm and the misguided.
And those who have an interest in keeping the machinery of hidden agenda going are a very powerful body; they will stop at nothing to make public opinion subservient to their own thrist of profits..
in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires that control the public mind."

Quote: 40487

JimMorrison wake up..You don't think these outstanding men would ever think about purchasing a software that would being in more money on rakes. A software
that would intise more players in betting by dealing flops with certain cards that more player will gamble on, and you would have to know that it's in the DNA of the software before it is easily dectected. A skilled poker investorgator would need 100s of hands before he becomes alert to the schme. And if you set this software to small stakes where new players wouldn't detect it, and who would look at hudreds of hands of a new player thats has questions? Poker investorgators seem to live in a world of odds, and the odds of a new player discovering a scam, that thousands of others haven't the chancea are slim, and none. So no attention is given.
And online poker was caught the attention of this nations youth, not the middle age, or the old. And with these young players will not complain with loosing number of hands to unprobable odds. They will not know what to look for.

Great example watched a player say "nice hand" to another player that won on a desperate all in bluff, and was called by two other players
with a 8-5 he bets at pre-flop. 2 players called A-k and KK. Flop was A K 2. 8-5 player all in after flop, 2 players called and these cards where dealt 3 4. What does that mean? Well online poker has players congradulating other players winning in these manner of slop poker. And having 1,000s of new players read nice hand after seeing this type of hands they start believing is normal. And when that happens you can scam the hell out of them. I folded this hand with pockets 2s. I would of played this hand after the flop. And what percentage of odds for the 8-5 to win? And the percentage of the KK to win? Whatever the percentages the smaller odd percentage will beat the largest one more times, and even in all in hands. How can that be? Not last week or today, but everyday.
Funny is when you ask a poker question to any online poker support. Its a game of luck, and chance. Theirs no odds
in online poker thats what they told me, and I bet each one privately. Today I read their comments, that poker is a game of skill, not chance. Funny tell the mass public the truth. You cant lie to the whole nation but you can one at a time in chat window.

Theirs more to this than you know. Sometimes you have to Al capone things in law. If you know what that means. You what they done for sure, but can't reaaly prove it with out showing how you obtain certain proof, and you want to keep that. So get them for what you can.
We must not conceal from ourselves that no improvement in the present is possible without a severe struggle; for the handful of those who are really determined to do something is minute in comparison with the mass of the lukewarm and the misguided.
And those who have an interest in keeping the machinery of hidden agenda going are a very powerful body; they will stop at nothing to make public opinion subservient to their own thrist of profits..
in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires that control the public mind."

I'm not going to debate you, it's pointless. You have nothing to back up what you say except bullshit. I'm sorry you aren't a winning player. I am. I have never booked a losing year playing poker live, online poker or online casinos. I've been doing this a long time. It always amazed me how many people on the internet know what these powerful bodies with hidden agendas are up to. With all due respect, if you can figure out all these conspiracies what does that say about the rest of us? And why wouldn't you simply be eliminated for your knowledge?

The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. And the whole "i'm not going to debate you" cause you cant. Calling facts "bullshit" means you have nothing but cheap illusion you what people to trust. And you couldn't even know anything at all towards poker. See how this works is I show proof, now you show something in actual proof of numbers to back up your opion. But all you did was talk like Fulltilt was %%%$# YOUR $&& real $@@& good to. I wasn't debating you. You got that backwards too. You started this. So basically you want to mouth off shout nothing, and leave. hmmmm.


jimmorssen your statement about 7 years of playing online poker. Is hard to believe. And any person that writes I lose no big deal just move on.
on is not a player. Has no idea, and the concept of people being untrust worthy towards money is new to him. Or he's just a villian.



you post a statement so fast u couldnt of read it, before I edit and put 6-5 instead of the wrong 8-5. It wasnt up their for a second it.