A regulated online casino seized $100k plus from me. What can I do?

I was hoping to not share this story publicly. But I don't know what else to do. I'm not seeking attention, I just want to get paid. So here's what happened. Earlier this year I was playing at a large regulated online casino. I had a long history with this site and up until this my account was down over $100k lifetime. I played this game on their app. I noticed that it had a design oversight. The game was functioning and paying out exactly how it was designed. I did not manipulate or change it. I played it and initially thought that after a few days or a week they would notice it losing money and would remove it. A week turned into a months and they still didn't notice it. Online casinos I presume have a fairly high cycle life for a game. I don't know if there was anyone else who was playing it. Throughout this time I made withdrawals and some deposits.

Eventually I received an email saying that my account had been locked. I'm not able to access it or withdraw my money. This didn't surprise me and seemed inevitable. I looked on the site and the game that I had been playing was taken down. So obviously they noticed the game losing and they looked up which accounts played it and locked them. I was initially a little worried. It wouldn't surprise me if a casino contacted the gaming commission and even law enforcement and allege something like fraud. Of course as the saying goes just cause you aren't doing anything wrong doesn't mean you won't have to defend yourself. I was worried that police or someone might show up at my house. I just waited. About a week later someone reached out to me and told me that the game I played had a glitch in it and they were voiding my balance. I said I disagree with that and nothing was malfunctioning and I expect to be paid just like how I always paid when I lost. I played a lot of other games as well on the site. He also said that I made a lot of withdrawals and they have the right to pursue me for those if they wanted to. He also said according to the terms and conditions that I was actually required to report this to them. I wasn't aware that it was my job to monitor their game. Who determines how a game should operate? Maybe it's supposed to be like that. I don't know. They put up the game, I just played it. Also if there was a glitch, did they refund everyone who lost on the game? I haven't received any other follow up as to the account status. Online sites have a fairly long leash and instead of closing accounts they normally just no promo or limit you. I have had one or 2 accounts closed and they just do a final withdrawal of your balance and that's it.

I don't want to give specifics but let's just say the amount locked in the account is a life changing amount. I immediately knew this was something I needed help with. I thought it would be easy. I would just search around and call one or 2 lawyers and they would take the case and I'd have to give them a cut. This has been a very discouraging process. It took me 2 months of calling until just one lawyer contacted me back and listened to the 30 second run down of what happened. I have contacted over 30 and literally all but 2-3 never called back or said they don't handle cases like this. I'm learning that many lawyers do legal work but few are actual litigators that handle stuff like this. I have also learned that all those signs you see that say no fee unless we collect for you are just for accidents where they know they're going to get paid. Any other kind of litigation is just done with a large upfront retainer and billable hours. It seems like a money pit and none of them seem to want to be invested in the case. Also nobody has given me a legal opinion as to the course they would advise. This is very new case law. There aren't really any other cases like this to go off of and none of these lawyers is familiar with gaming.

I have 2 lawyers who have offered to take the case. One wanted $25k upfront plus a percentage of anything recovered. He is an independent lawyer. Kind of a funny guy but just wanted the case to sue a casino. He hasn't even listened to the specifics of the case. The second is a business litigator at a large firm. I explained the case to him. He said they do work like this but they wouldn't do it on contingency, just billable hours. They want $5000 upfront. That's just to make calls and send letters. A lawsuit or arbitration would I'm guessing would run into 100 or more hours at $400 an hour. It's not that I don't think it's reasonable for them to get a small retainer upfront but it seems like they should be invested in this with me. I'm leaning towards giving the second firm the initial amount and have them find out what they can. I don't have $25 or $50k to spend on this. I pretty much lose on everything else I gamble on.

So I was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to what I can do. Thanks for any responses.

What do you mean by ‘on line regulated’? Regulated by Curacao or New York State?

Without knowing what the ‘glitch’ is there is no way for any of us to know if it is reasonable or unreasonable to do what they did. If the ‘glitch’ was they paid 3-1 on every blackjack, even though the posted rules of the game say 3-2, I think you’ll lose.

It is not good news for you that you can’t find a lawyer that will do this on a straight contingency basis.

Needless to say, you learned a lesson about leaving ‘life changing’ money in an online casino account!

I can say this though. I wouldn’t give a single cent to a lawyer who will not take this on a contingency basis. I think your chances of winning or getting a settlement go up exponentially if the lawyer has skin in the game.

There is no way I'm giving him upfront money and a percentage. I think you need to find a lawyer who specializes in internet gambling, not a young guy eager to sue a casino.

My guess is you're not going to get the money because there was a glitch and the casino found out about it and that's what they're going to say in court. The lawyers know this they just want your money. I never at any given time have more than $300 in any casino. This is the reason why.

Quote: SOOPOO

What do you mean by ‘on line regulated’? Regulated by Curacao or New York State?

Without knowing what the ‘glitch’ is there is no way for any of us to know if it is reasonable or unreasonable to do what they did. If the ‘glitch’ was they paid 3-1 on every blackjack, even though the posted rules of the game say 3-2, I think you’ll lose.

It is not good news for you that you can’t find a lawyer that will do this on a straight contingency basis.

Needless to say, you learned a lesson about leaving ‘life changing’ money in an online casino account!

I can say this though. I wouldn’t give a single cent to a lawyer who will not take this on a contingency basis. I think your chances of winning or getting a settlement go up exponentially if the lawyer has skin in the game.
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Thanks teacher. I learned such a valuable lesson. Don’t leave money in the account. I never thought of that. I handled everything the way I thought best. The moment I saw the email from them that my account was suspended my first thought was I have no regrets on how I handled anything. I made withdrawals along the way and also deposits. There were reasons that I handled things the way that I did.

This is a large US regulated site that everyone has heard of. Again there was no glitch. The game paid exactly how it was supposed to. If I told you what it was it’s so simple you wouldn’t believe it. It is legal play in any other capacity which is possibly why they haven’t pursued me. Now whether a jury/judge/arbitor sees it like that is unknown. Out of the very few other instances I could point to, they have all won. I personally believe my case is stronger than any of those other ones.

There are no advertised internet gaming lawyers that represent consumers in disputes. It’s a field that doesn’t exist. I need a lawyer that does business dispute litigation. All of the “gaming” lawyers out there work for casinos and manufacturers on the regulation and legislation side. They don’t represent consumers. I have called every lawyer associated with any relateable case. They don’t even call back to get the 60 second run down of what happened. There is a new sect of lawsuits that is targeting people who have lost a lot at online sportsbooks. I have contacted them all and like all the others they don’t call back.

I think everyone is correct though. Paying anyone upfront may be a bad idea. They should have some skin in the game. But about 4 different lawyers have told me that’s not how it works.

Quote: EvenBob

My guess is you're not going to get the money because there was a glitch and the casino found out about it and that's what they're going to say in court. The lawyers know this they just want your money. I never at any given time have more than $300 in any casino. This is the reason why.
link to original post

The lawyers don’t know this because I haven’t told them yet what it is. I can’t even get that far. They either don’t call me back or say they want a retainer up front to do anything.

I have played online for years at dozens of regulated apps. Your money is usually always safe. I cannot find one other case where they have seized a balance. But I have seen increasing instances of them becoming more bold in reversing sports bets and other things like that.

Sorry for the ‘tone’. If you’d send the details to someone you trust, maybe he/she could give you a better answer. I think with just the details on what the glitch/error/mistake was, and the country that regulates the casino, I’d be able to at least offer good advice. Plus I am friends with a wide variety of lawyers. Some that only work on contingency (‘ambulance chasers). You can PM me if you’d like.

Hard to tell the difference sometimes between a casino's mistake in calculations of a weakness of a game and an actual malfunction of the game.

They like to keep anything due to a malfunction in the brick-and-mortar casinos..

To me it doesn't sound like a malfunction at all, I don't know why people are entertaining that idea. It sounds like the vendor of the online slot coded it in such a way that it's +EV off the top in some way they didn't intend.

I think a malfunction would involve manipulating the site outside the intended scope of interactions with the slot by flooding it with inputs or something like that to force a reset after you get an undesirable outcome.

If there was a lawyer involved in the Ocean Magic case in NJ involving JWT you could try him. I don't think there was though.

It's also legal to get backers for a civil lawsuit if you feel you can't risk the upfront cost.

I have a lawyer in mind who I will send this post to and see what he says. I have also used Bob Nersesian in the past on a contingency, but I believe he is nearing retirement and not sure this case is quite up his alley. Here are some other potential options:

-----------------
Gambler sued MGM over a phantom account that joined a leaderboard, making him lose the top prize:

Plaintiff Lawyer:
Jordan L. Barbone, Esquire (NJ Attorney ID # 309182022) JACOBS & BARBONE, P.A. A Professional Corporation Attorneys at Law 1125 Pacific Avenue Atlantic City, New Jersey 08401 (609) 348-1125 w
-----------------

-----------------
MGM steals woman's balance after a large withdrawal

Plaintiff's Lawyers:

MARK GRANZOTTO (P31492) MARK GRANZOTTO, P.C. 2684 Eleven Mile Road, Suite 100 Berkley, MI 48072 (248) 546-4649 Attorney for Plaintiff-Appellant Jacqueline Davis

DAVID S. STEINGOLD (P29752)
LAW OFFICES OF DAVID S. STEINGOLD, PLLC 500 Griswold Street, Suite 2320 Detroit, MI 48226 (313) 962-0000 Attorney for Plaintiff-Appellant Jacqueline Davis
-----------------

I found these after googling some of the more recent cases I have heard of involving online casino disputes. You could probably find quite a few more attorneys this way.

Also, you may want to consider reaching out to some gambling influencers, such as Captain Jack Andrews or someone like ThePromoGuy, Vegas Pauly C, etc. In other industries, such as travel and finance, banks will do unbelievably insane things to people and then simply stop responding, and people like The Points Guy will step in as an ombudsman, and he gets it resolved a lot of the time (for the defendant to avoid bad press).

You could also write to some newspapers for the same reason. May not work, but may be worth a shot as you have nothing to lose.

Quote: SOOPOO

Sorry for the ‘tone’. If you’d send the details to someone you trust, maybe he/she could give you a better answer. I think with just the details on what the glitch/error/mistake was, and the country that regulates the casino, I’d be able to at least offer good advice. Plus I am friends with a wide variety of lawyers. Some that only work on contingency (‘ambulance chasers). You can PM me if you’d like.
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Sorry for my sarcastic response. Again this is a US based publicly traded well known multi state regulated site. It's not Antigua or anything. I'm not here to argue anything or prove any points. I'm really just asking if anyone knows somebody or anything else I can do as I've gotten nowhere. I don't have anybody I trust. I don't really know anybody really. That's what I've been trying to find. It's almost been so discouraging from the lawyers that I'm actually worried now if I ever needed one for a criminal defense that I wouldn't even be able to get one to call me. I can imagine it like this, Judge: where is your lawyer? Me: I don't have one. Judge: What do you mean? You had 60 days. Me: No literally, I called 30 and 28 didn't even call me back. The 2 that did want thousands up front before they'll even talk to me.

I did withdraw money along the way, Without being too specific what I found was this particular site would auto approve withdrawals up to a certain amount. Then you had to wait however long to try another one. I don't know the exact system. A few times I tried larger ones and they would just sit there sometimes for up to a week or so until they were manually approved.

So my options as I saw it were
A) Make $1 and withdraw $1 (no risk)
B) Make $100, try to withdraw $95, probably get too many eyes on the account, maybe I get paid maybe not, maybe someone shows up at my house asking questions, maybe not
C) Make $10 gradually, withdraw $1, occasionally make 50 cent deposits for bonuses, know all along the account will eventually get frozen in which case they will either pay it and close it or I will have to fight for it

I chose option C. That's what I thought best.

Quote: rxwine

Hard to tell the difference sometimes between a casino's mistake in calculations of a weakness of a game and an actual malfunction of the game.

They like to keep anything due to a malfunction in the brick-and-mortar casinos..
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I haven't even gotten that far explaining it to a lawyer. But let me say this. Not in a courtroom but maybe in a arbitration or something I think at this point I could make a better argument myself than any lawyer I've talked to. This would just be based on simple gambling contract understanding. Simple things like, you make a bet, you honor it. When I lost I paid, when I win I expect to be paid. If you're claiming a glitch, that means all pays and plays are void. Did you refund those that lost on the game? You put up the game, I just played it. It's not my responsibility to monitor your game. But again whether a court sees it like that is admittedly is a gamble.

Here is an example of an actual glitch on some online video game that has a virtual casino. You can see what you do is go to a table and once it's apparent that you will lose you simply close the game and it basically voids that hand and returns your balance. This is something I wouldn't play if I found it. It violates the premise of gambling in that you must place a bet that is potentially at risk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tsIMSUjAB4

Quote: smurgerburger

To me it doesn't sound like a malfunction at all, I don't know why people are entertaining that idea. It sounds like the vendor of the online slot coded it in such a way that it's +EV off the top in some way they didn't intend.

I think a malfunction would involve manipulating the site outside the intended scope of interactions with the slot by flooding it with inputs or something like that to force a reset after you get an undesirable outcome.

If there was a lawyer involved in the Ocean Magic case in NJ involving JWT you could try him. I don't think there was though.

It's also legal to get backers for a civil lawsuit if you feel you can't risk the upfront cost.
link to original post

Great post! You pretty much figured it out. I did not manipulate it or use a device. Something I imagine you're referring to would be like pressing the deal button again if the first cards you got were bad and it would give you new ones.

The Ocean Magic and Golden Egypt case is a great example. Manufacturer design oversight, not a glitch. The manufacturer in that case started the initial state of Ocean Magic with wild bubbles already added to "get it going" I guess you could say. This created on off the top edge for a few spins. Not really a problem when they set them up in a casino with bets from 75 cents to $5. But the thing with the online version is it had probably 20 different bet levels going up to $300 a spin each with this initial setup. Then there were 2-3 different sites with the game on it. I actually played it like that before it became news. Then a few weeks later I noticed the games were gone. I thought that was odd. Then of course I heard what happened. I'm not saying they're lying but I personally doubt the story. I played it up to a certain point and usually lost. The initial state of the game was greatly over exaggerated. I think it was wild bubbles on reels 1 and 4 and just 1 coin on reels 1 and 4 of golden egypt. On the physical version that is way not positive. The online game has an RTP more like 95%. So they claimed that it was an edge. I personally didn't see it but hey I'm happy for them that they crushed it.

Quote: TigerWoodsTB12

I have a lawyer in mind who I will send this post to and see what he says. I have also used Bob Nersesian in the past on a contingency, but I believe he is nearing retirement and not sure this case is quite up his alley. Here are some other potential options:

-----------------
Gambler sued MGM over a phantom account that joined a leaderboard, making him lose the top prize:

Plaintiff Lawyer:
Jordan L. Barbone, Esquire (NJ Attorney ID # 309182022) JACOBS & BARBONE, P.A. A Professional Corporation Attorneys at Law 1125 Pacific Avenue Atlantic City, New Jersey 08401 (609) 348-1125 w
-----------------

-----------------
MGM steals woman's balance after a large withdrawal

Plaintiff's Lawyers:

MARK GRANZOTTO (P31492) MARK GRANZOTTO, P.C. 2684 Eleven Mile Road, Suite 100 Berkley, MI 48072 (248) 546-4649 Attorney for Plaintiff-Appellant Jacqueline Davis

DAVID S. STEINGOLD (P29752)
LAW OFFICES OF DAVID S. STEINGOLD, PLLC 500 Griswold Street, Suite 2320 Detroit, MI 48226 (313) 962-0000 Attorney for Plaintiff-Appellant Jacqueline Davis
-----------------

I found these after googling some of the more recent cases I have heard of involving online casino disputes. You could probably find quite a few more attorneys this way.

Also, you may want to consider reaching out to some gambling influencers, such as Captain Jack Andrews or someone like ThePromoGuy, Vegas Pauly C, etc. In other industries, such as travel and finance, banks will do unbelievably insane things to people and then simply stop responding, and people like The Points Guy will step in as an ombudsman, and he gets it resolved a lot of the time (for the defendant to avoid bad press).

You could also write to some newspapers for the same reason. May not work, but may be worth a shot as you have nothing to lose.
link to original post

Thanks for the tips. Feel free to PM me. I am also on Twitter if they want to contact me.

I did call and email the Barbone firm. Their intake person called me and I gave details but a lawyer never contacted me. I also think he has a conflict of interest in the casino this is against. I had not heard of that leaderboard case. It's interesting. It surprises me that he took the case. Personally I don't think there is anything there. Everyone knows (or at least should know) that day 3 of a 4 day leaderboard means nothing. Literally the last 15 minutes of a leaderboard everyone doubles their scores for the whole contest.

I didn't call Bob N at first because I thought it best to find a more local lawyer licensed in the applicable states. I did eventually call him and he is retiring and not taking anymore cases. I knew he would be blunt and to the point and our 12 second phone conversation did not disappoint. I have reached out to the detroit firm handling that case. Again they didn't call back. I have reached out to any other lawyer that I see handled any remotely similar case and again no one will call back. This is not a case of I explained everything and they don't want the case. It's more like I call and email saying I need representation for a large amount and they don't call back or call back and say they don't do these type of cases,

Somehow I completely forgot about lawyer Bob Loeb. I tried to contact him today. This is a great episode I just relistened to. He seems very intune with the online gambling market. After listening to this I think he would be somewhat pessimistic about my case. There is something he said at the end about something called unjust enrichment. I think this is the stance the casino is taking. They threatened that they could pursue me for previous withdrawals. I'm assuming they have decided against that since I did not do anything fraudulent but that they are basically saying we don't have to pay what's left in the account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrwR9pzB5tQ

This past week on Twitter news hit that Novig had voided bets because it's parlay pricing software was not actually ready to go live. One poster said that they voided over $100k from his account. After public pressure they paid the bets.

https://www.sportico.com/business/sports-betting/2025/novig-parlay-void-how-it-works-1234878306/

Do you think they reviewed all your playing activity on their site? Too bad you can't easily find other players perhaps in the same situation. Might makes right sometimes.

Quote: Sandybestdog

It's almost been so discouraging from the lawyers that I'm actually worried now if I ever needed one for a criminal defense that I wouldn't even be able to get one to call me. I can imagine it like this, Judge: where is your lawyer? Me: I don't have one. Judge: What do you mean? You had 60 days. Me: No literally, I called 30 and 28 didn't even call me back. The 2 that did want thousands up front before they'll even talk to me.

Lawyers, including criminal defense lawyers, don't work for free. They will give you an initial consultation at no charge (5 minutes or so).

I don't know if you'll find out anything useful, but there are "Ask a Lawyer" sites online for a small fee. I think you can pick by category. For people who just want to get a ballpark idea of what they want, it's an armchair option.

Probably no use to you at this point since you've already contacted many.

Of course, if you use a site like that you should look up reviews before trusting anything with your money. Not perfect, but better than going in completely blind.

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: EvenBob

My guess is you're not going to get the money because there was a glitch and the casino found out about it and that's what they're going to say in court. The lawyers know this they just want your money. I never at any given time have more than $300 in any casino. This is the reason why.
link to original post

The lawyers don’t know this because I haven’t told them yet what it is. I can’t even get that far. They either don’t call me back or say they want a retainer up front to do anything.

I have played online for years at dozens of regulated apps. Your money is usually always safe. I cannot find one other case where they have seized a balance. But I have seen increasing instances of them becoming more bold in reversing sports bets and other things like that.
link to original post

Even better. So if you get a lawyer who's interested you know he just wants your money and he knows you can't win. I had a case last year of a different nature and I talked to a bunch of lawyers and half of them told me I had a good case but it would take too long and the amount they got wasn't worth that time. It was potentially a somewhat large sum of money but they wanted a bigger payday for the time involved. I had no idea how to do it myself so I just forgot about it. What lawyers seem to want now is a fat case with a guaranteed win and a quick turnaround.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: EvenBob

My guess is you're not going to get the money because there was a glitch and the casino found out about it and that's what they're going to say in court. The lawyers know this they just want your money. I never at any given time have more than $300 in any casino. This is the reason why.
link to original post

The lawyers don’t know this because I haven’t told them yet what it is. I can’t even get that far. They either don’t call me back or say they want a retainer up front to do anything.

I have played online for years at dozens of regulated apps. Your money is usually always safe. I cannot find one other case where they have seized a balance. But I have seen increasing instances of them becoming more bold in reversing sports bets and other things like that.
link to original post

Even better. So if you get a lawyer who's interested you know he just wants your money and he knows you can't win. I had a case last year of a different nature and I talked to a bunch of lawyers and half of them told me I had a good case but it would take too long and the amount they got wasn't worth that time. It was potentially a somewhat large sum of money but they wanted a bigger payday for the time involved. I had no idea how to do it myself so I just forgot about it. What lawyers seem to want now is a fat case with a guaranteed win and a quick turnaround.
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I appreciate when lawyers at least tell you it is not worth their time. I consulted with a personal injury attorney in Las Vegas named Monte Hall (as in Let's Make a Deal). He said I had a case that could definitely be won but would probably require a trial and hiring expert witnesses and he didn't think the award or settlement would justify the expenses. He said I could try taking it to a junior attorney who might be interested in getting some courtroom experience. I took a small five figure settlement and walked away.

Can you claim a confiscation like this on your taxes as a loss?

Quote: rxwine

Can you claim a confiscation like this on your taxes as a loss?
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I'd think you'd have to report the winnings before you try to deduct confiscated funds.

Quote: rxwine

Can you claim a confiscation like this on your taxes as a loss?
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So that's another issue. Besides this game I played a lot of others. I hit a lot of w2g's. I file as a professional so it doesn't really matter. So they filed all these w2g's and then didn't pay me on it. Also since the account is locked I can't get an account statement. If I had to claim the confiscated amount, my tax owed would be more than my income this year. The tax law is so convoluted. What is a win? What is a session? There is no way I can keep track of every bet and every sports bet. Any other business just goes off profit and loss. I personally consider the whole year a session. From each online casino I add up the deposits and withdrawals, which is still nearly impossible to keep track of. I make thousands of them a year.

This is turning into a real horror story

This is turning into a real horror story

This is turning into a real horror story

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: rxwine

Can you claim a confiscation like this on your taxes as a loss?
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So that's another issue. Besides this game I played a lot of others. I hit a lot of w2g's. I file as a professional so it doesn't really matter. So they filed all these w2g's and then didn't pay me on it. Also since the account is locked I can't get an account statement. If I had to claim the confiscated amount, my tax owed would be more than my income this year. The tax law is so convoluted. What is a win? What is a session? There is no way I can keep track of every bet and every sports bet. Any other business just goes off profit and loss. I personally consider the whole year a session. From each online casino I add up the deposits and withdrawals, which is still nearly impossible to keep track of. I make thousands of them a year.
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Yowza! They gave you W-2G’s but not the money! You must at least have a CPA/tax preparer that can help you handle that! NO WAY you can be expected to pay tax on money they never gave you! (At least I hope so!)

Quote: Sandybestdog

What is a session? There is no way I can keep track of every bet and every sports bet. Any other business just goes off profit and loss. I personally consider the whole year a session. From each online casino I add up the deposits and withdrawals, which is still nearly impossible to keep track of. I make thousands of them a year.

I would recommend going forward, treat each day at each casino as a session. If you play four different casinos in a day, treat that as four sessions. I had an IRS letter audit, when I provided daily records they backed off and pretty much accepted what I offered. I think I ended up owing another $1300 or so but the initial letter audit was asking for something like $39k in back taxes.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/russell-fox-on-taxes-for-gamblers/id459476611?i=1000717564252


They talk about defining a session.

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: rxwine

Can you claim a confiscation like this on your taxes as a loss?
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So that's another issue. Besides this game I played a lot of others. I hit a lot of w2g's. I file as a professional so it doesn't really matter. So they filed all these w2g's and then didn't pay me on it. Also since the account is locked I can't get an account statement. If I had to claim the confiscated amount, my tax owed would be more than my income this year. The tax law is so convoluted. What is a win? What is a session? There is no way I can keep track of every bet and every sports bet. Any other business just goes off profit and loss. I personally consider the whole year a session. From each online casino I add up the deposits and withdrawals, which is still nearly impossible to keep track of. I make thousands of them a year.
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Might be useful to also contact lawyers involved in tax cases. Could there be a legal way to force them to give some legal justification? Once in a while there can be a roundabout way to accomplish something you can't do directly.

Quote: rxwine

Might be useful to also contact lawyers involved in tax cases. Could there be a legal way to force them to give some legal justification? Once in a while there can be a roundabout way to accomplish something you can't do directly.
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Their legal justification is their terms and conditions. You basically have no rights.

Forfeiture of any deposits, Bonus Money, and/or winnings resulting from wagers in your account, as directed by the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board pursuant to the Act and Regulations;

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: rxwine

Might be useful to also contact lawyers involved in tax cases. Could there be a legal way to force them to give some legal justification? Once in a while there can be a roundabout way to accomplish something you can't do directly.
link to original post

Their legal justification is their terms and conditions. You basically have no rights.

Forfeiture of any deposits, Bonus Money, and/or winnings resulting from wagers in your account, as directed by the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board pursuant to the Act and Regulations;
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Okay, but is the casino paying taxes on the money it is taking from patrons in this manner? Might they be forced to return funds if they’re not reporting it. Maybe someone’s business practices need busting. I don’t know, just saying.

If a tax lawyer told you they have a duty to report your losses officially on a document, unless they already have so you can file properly..

Just throwing stuff out there.

If the casino never paid out the money, it would owe nothing.
Are you paid when the casino credits the money to your account, or when you withdraw it?
I would think the tax implications would be very different if you never got paid than if it were confiscated.

Considering the amount of money involved, maybe the Attorney General of Pennsylvania would be interested how they are doing things.

They could be operating on a loophole in the law that needs to be addressed.

I don't like this, "you violated terms" BYE BYE, that's it.

Here's another thing. If you had withdrawn all that money, do they have a right to demand it back? If they don't how can it be their money?

If there is money somewhere else of mine, it still belongs to me.

Ok. Now we know it is Pennsylvania. If you live there, there is a Congressperson whose district you live in. Occasionally you might find one who WANTS to advocate your cause against the big bad casino industry. I’d also send a letter to your two Senators as well. I like the Attorney General contact as well.

‘Casino X stole $200k from me. This is how….’

Quote: SOOPOO

Ok. Now we know it is Pennsylvania. If you live there, there is a Congressperson whose district you live in. Occasionally you might find one who WANTS to advocate your cause against the big bad casino industry. I’d also send a letter to your two Senators as well. I like the Attorney General contact as well.

‘Casino X stole $200k from me. This is how….’
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Also, if you haven't contact the Pennsylvania Gaming Control immediately. Pennsylvania has a real Gaming Control Board or Commission. If it is Pennsylvania, you are fortunate.

...also, whatever route you go, make a folder for all your contacts back and forth if you haven't already. Even if you have some success in the long run, best not to rely only on your memory as time goes on.

Figured out who you gotta call!!

Quote: rxwine

Considering the amount of money involved, maybe the Attorney General of Pennsylvania would be interested how they are doing things.

They could be operating on a loophole in the law that needs to be addressed.

I don't like this, "you violated terms" BYE BYE, that's it.
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I remember a Poster on this website saying he ran up his deposit into like $30,000 and when he pressed,"Cash out," he soon got a message saying something like,"We feel you cheated so we will not be paying out the $30,000 and we will not even refund you your deposit. You are banned." 😱😳 He asked WOV for advice on what to do and WOV replied something like,"I'd be reporting this to Gaming Commission if I were you." 💡

When you think about it the casino really hasn't gained anything and you really haven't lost anything. The casino put up nothing and you gained nothing and you're right back where you started. You never had the money and the casino never gave up the money, it's all just an idea that we're arguing about. I was in one cash business or another for 40 years and the saying is, never count the money till it's in the front pocket of your jeans. Until then you really don't have it.

Quote: EvenBob

When you think about it the casino really hasn't gained anything and you really haven't lost anything. The casino put up nothing and you gained nothing and you're right back where you started. You never had the money and the casino never gave up the money, it's all just an idea that we're arguing about. I was in one cash business or another for 40 years and the saying is, never count the money till it's in the front pocket of your jeans. Until then you really don't have it.
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"Ownership is 90% of the law" "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush."

I remember a kid (In middle school) saying "Let me hold a quarter". Real quick I learned what that meant.

.

Quote: rxwine

Okay, but is the casino paying taxes on the money it is taking from patrons in this manner? Might they be forced to return funds if they’re not reporting it. Maybe someone’s business practices need busting. I don’t know, just saying.

If a tax lawyer told you they have a duty to report your losses officially on a document, unless they already have so you can file properly..

Just throwing stuff out there.

Quote: rxwine

Considering the amount of money involved, maybe the Attorney General of Pennsylvania would be interested how they are doing things.

They could be operating on a loophole in the law that needs to be addressed.

I don't like this, "you violated terms" BYE BYE, that's it.
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Quote: rxwine

Here's another thing. If you had withdrawn all that money, do they have a right to demand it back? If they don't how can it be their money?

If there is money somewhere else of mine, it still belongs to me.

I don't know any of the legal aspects of this. This is sort of new case law. There isn't much to go on since online gaming is a new industry. I wouldn't count on any government official helping. They will I'm sure take the stance that of course the casino wouldn't just take your money, there has to be a reason.

What I do know is this is something for a lawyer to handle. Ever been to traffic court? The judge, the prosecutor, everyone is the most pompous stuck up, you're wasting my time people. You get up there and plead not guilty, oh boy, you're gonna get it. Then there's the one person there that brings a lawyer. All of a sudden everything comes to a halt and the lawyer gets all the respect in the world. I'm confident I'm going to lose this case if I handle it on my own.

I did withdraw a lot. In my brief conversation with them they alluded to the fact that they could pursue me for that. There was a brief pause where he said something like "unless". I got the feeling he was going to say something like we won't pursue you if you won't pursue us, but he didn't. At the end of the podcast link I posted, Bob Loeb talked about something called unjust enrichment. Where basically they say ok you made a lot off of something (wrongly in their opinion). We don't have the right to ask for it back but you don't get to keep the balance in the account. After not hearing from them it seems this may be the approach they've taken.

My personal theory. They have only locked the account. There's been no other activity. Normally they would close the account and send a final pay. Obviously they don't want to do that. They told me they voided the balance. I personally think they haven't. They could just lock it and make you think that's it. Then wait 1 or 2 years and the account is considered abandoned property. This is just a theory though.

Quote: billryan

If the casino never paid out the money, it would owe nothing.
Are you paid when the casino credits the money to your account, or when you withdraw it?
I would think the tax implications would be very different if you never got paid than if it were confiscated.
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Quote: EvenBob

When you think about it the casino really hasn't gained anything and you really haven't lost anything. The casino put up nothing and you gained nothing and you're right back where you started. You never had the money and the casino never gave up the money, it's all just an idea that we're arguing about. I was in one cash business or another for 40 years and the saying is, never count the money till it's in the front pocket of your jeans. Until then you really don't have it.
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You're paid to your account balance after each casino bet or sports bet settles. Then you can keep it in your account or cash it out via bank transfer. I can see there aren't too many online players on this forum who understand the process. It's pretty simple.

Evenbob I really couldn't disagree more with your assessment. This akin to playing a table game or slot. Once the gaming transaction is complete, the money is either yours or the casino's. It doesn't matter that you haven't cashed out. If you have chips, they can't after the fact say we don't like how you played that game, we're not cashing them (assuming nothing illegal was done to obtain those chips).

edit: Saying you haven't lost anything when they don't cash you out because the amount in dispute was winnings really goes against basic contract law. Imagine if every casino said to every winner sorry we aren't going to pay you, but hey you haven't really lost anything cause it was only winnings?

Quote: SOOPOO

Ok. Now we know it is Pennsylvania. If you live there, there is a Congressperson whose district you live in. Occasionally you might find one who WANTS to advocate your cause against the big bad casino industry. I’d also send a letter to your two Senators as well. I like the Attorney General contact as well.

‘Casino X stole $200k from me. This is how….’
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Quote: DRich

Also, if you haven't contact the Pennsylvania Gaming Control immediately. Pennsylvania has a real Gaming Control Board or Commission. If it is Pennsylvania, you are fortunate.

I don't live in Pennsylvania, but yes I would trust them the most. This actually involves about 6 different states. So I don't know where jurisdiction is. One lawyer told me it's federal.

I haven't gone to the gaming commission yet. Additionally I don't know if the casino reported this to them. I really don't think they would care. First off you're taking tax payer money by winning. They don't like that. Awhile ago I filed with NJ gaming because a sportsbook refused to cash my tickets without ID. Normally it's sort of something that I would say it's not right but ok here you go but in this case I said there's no reason you need it. They were just doing this to be difficult because I repeat bet at a kiosk. I received a very proper response from gaming saying they are justified in asking for id because previously they told me I could not make repeat bets at the kiosk. This is an outright lie because they had no idea who I was and in fact I had never previously even placed a bet there so how could they have told me this if I had never been there? But I wasn't able to give a response before they made a decision.

I also learned that gaming cannot actually make a casino do anything. They only issue a legal opinion as to if the casino if violating regulations. It's still up to the legal process to force them to do something. Now if gaming says they are in violation, you would assume they would correct that and not drag it out to a certain defeat in the court system. On the flip side if gaming decides in my case that there was a glitch or malfunction, well I have had an impossible time finding a lawyer the way things are now. Imagine me trying to find one when gaming says I have no case. So I wouldn't want to leave this up to a process where gaming lets the casino say whatever they want and gives you no chance to respond.

I have thought that maybe I could file a complaint in one state and if I lose that leaves the other states open. But I see this as a domino effect where one state when it hears what another did will follow along. So then what I could do is file at the same time in all the states and see if they come up with conflicting opinions.. My guess is that at least one state will pass on an opinion and say you need to seek remedy in the courts.

Again this is really what a lawyer is for. You're just going to get so much more respect when some says I'm a lawyer representing my client. Could you tell me what you plan on doing with his funds?

Quote: Sandybestdog[

I can see there aren't too many online players on this forum who understand the process.

Hah, I've never gambled in an online casino yet in all these years. I'm just going by what seems right and what seems wrong.

And my general impression, is there doesn't look to be enough customer protection from this sort of dispute online where a casino just wins by force of being able to do what they want, and PROBABLY a lot of customers losing smaller sums than you end up not bothering to go through whatever the necessary process might be to dispute and perhaps rectify it.

AND THAT COULD BE A LOT OF MONEY OVERALL, they're just walking away with. But who knows. Is there a way to see transparency here?

Btw, it seems crazy as a transaction. Imagine if you were buying a car online (could be a similar amount of money) You do something wrong or they say you did something wrong and they decide to keep all that money? WHAT? What else works like that?

Am I only one who thinks there is something wrong with this?

Quote: Sandybestdog

Evenbob I really couldn't disagree more with your assessment. This akin to playing a table game or slot. Once the gaming transaction is complete, the money is either yours or the casino's. It doesn't matter that you haven't cashed out. If you have chips, they can't after the fact say we don't like how you played that game, we're not cashing them (assuming nothing illegal was done to obtain those chips).

edit: Saying you haven't lost anything when they don't cash you out because the amount in dispute was winnings really goes against basic contract law. Imagine if every casino said to every winner sorry we aren't going to pay you, but hey you haven't really lost anything cause it was only winnings?
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My point was it's all on paper, it's all an idea, there's no tangible goods involved. You did not bring a bag of gold to the casino give it to them and they refuse to pay you. You made an agreement that if you lost they kept your money and if you won you got your winnings. They reneged on that agreement so you walked out of the casino figuratively with exactly what you walked in with. Ever make a personal bet with somebody and they refuse to pay you when they lose? You are out absolutely nothing, did not cost you a dime of real money.

Quote: rxwine

Hah, I've never gambled in an online casino yet in all these years. I'm just going by what seems right and what seems wrong.

And my general impression, is there doesn't look to be enough customer protection from this sort of dispute online where a casino just wins by force of being able to do what they want, and PROBABLY a lot of customers losing smaller sums than you end up not bothering to go through whatever the necessary process might be to dispute and perhaps rectify it.

AND THAT COULD BE A LOT OF MONEY OVERALL, they're just walking away with. But who knows. Is there a way to see transparency here?

Btw, it seems crazy as a transaction. Imagine if you were buying a car online (could be a similar amount of money) You do something wrong or they say you did something wrong and they decide to keep all that money? WHAT? What else works like that?

Am I only one who thinks there is something wrong with this?

I believe my case is quite rare. I have kept large balances in regulated sportsbooks and never thought twice about it. These places are actually more prone to give in and address customers with small balances and complaints as they see them long term as good customers. If news got out that a large balance was seized they would just say something like "this doesn't effect the vast majority of our customers who play recreationally and can be confident that their money is safe", or something like that. As if to say there was justification for taking the money because the customer did something wrong.

Quote: EvenBob

My point was it's all on paper, it's all an idea, there's no tangible goods involved. You did not bring a bag of gold to the casino give it to them and they refuse to pay you. You made an agreement that if you lost they kept your money and if you won you got your winnings. They reneged on that agreement so you walked out of the casino figuratively with exactly what you walked in with. Ever make a personal bet with somebody and they refuse to pay you when they lose? You are out absolutely nothing, did not cost you a dime of real money.
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I'm not quite sure the point you are trying to make. What you're saying goes against basic contract law. You're supposed to do what you agreed to. The casino put up a game and said you can win or lose money. I played the game that they set up under their conditions. If I had lost, I would have paid. Since I won I expect to get paid. It's not about saying oh ok we're not going to pay you and it's ok cause you're not really out anything, That's like saying to someone who just worked for you for 2 weeks and is expecting a paycheck oh I'm not going to pay you and you shouldn't be mad because you didn't actually lose anything.

If you see my original post it says there that over the past 5 years I had played at this online site and my account was down over $100k. I never said to them, I know I played your games and lost but I'm not going to pay you and it's ok cause you're not really out anything. I paid them when I lost, I expect to be paid when I win. I did spend expense money traveling to play. So it wasn't all profit.

While I contend that I didn't intentionally violate the terms and conditions it's been mentioned what happens when they say that you did? There are a lot of sports bettors out there right now that are using other people's accounts because their own is limited. Most books have now put in their terms that you cannot share your login credentials with anyone else, even with your permission. What happens if the book finds out? Do they just get to confiscate the balance? It seems they could use this excuse to just take anybody's money they want.