lilredrooster
lilredrooster
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 8:48:00 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146



The signed authorization form is so that they don’t pay you out only for you to later dispute the charges with your CC after you have cashed the check, effectively free-rolling them and getting your deposit, winnings and refunded the amount you deposited via chargeback reversal.



Except he says they said this:

“If you feel strongly about not providing your documents, we will simply void your winnings and refund you your money if you want.”

He could have done what you suggested in this situation too; refusing to pay the c.c. card and getting his deposit back and profiting from this.

But they didn't fear he would do that in this situation. Why?

It looks like they were angling to pocket his winnings.
"but I don't care too much for money..........money can't buy me love".............. the Beatles
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 9:33:56 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

Except he says they said this:

“If you feel strongly about not providing your documents, we will simply void your winnings and refund you your money if you want.”

He could have done what you suggested in this situation too; refusing to pay the c.c. card and getting his deposit back and profiting from this.

But they didn't fear he would do that in this situation. Why?

It looks like they were angling to pocket his winnings.



1.) More than anything, I go back to the fact that he could have easily and readily known the documents would need to be provided for a withdrawal prior to making a deposit or even creating an account to begin with.

2.) They would refund the deposit by way of reversing the credit card transaction. Ergo, the money would go back onto the credit card. That's what a refund is, it's different than a withdrawal. He would not be able to initiate a chargeback on something that had already been refunded. Even if he did, he would lose, because the entity that did the credit card transaction could show it had already been refunded. People tried this at the hotel I managed from time to time. They'd gripe about one thing or another, get a refund from the franchisor and then attempt to do a chargeback anyway.

3.) If he wants his winnings, he just needs to provide the documents that he could have known ahead of time he would need to provide. They're not trying to pocket anything, I think the casino actually would quite like to pay him.
Vultures can't be choosers.
terapined
terapined
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 9:41:13 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Meanwhile, savvy players were absolutely crushing the online casinos during the early 2000's.

I highly regret not spending more time and investing more money playing online casinos back then(and even to some degree now).


I've heard these stories
I find them hard to believe
Is there any actual proof that this happened?
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 9:47:45 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

I've heard these stories
I find them hard to believe
Is there any actual proof that this happened?



Aside from the very owner of this site amassing a large fortune that way?

The thing was the playthrough requirements were incredibly liberal then, because many players would play until it was all gone anyway, but primarily because the casinos didn't pay attention to or realize the mathematical advantage that the players were getting. I believe Wizard has also mentioned making substantial bank with online gambling in the early days, but I'm not 100% sure.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Wizard
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Wizard
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 10:00:54 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

The thing was the playthrough requirements were incredibly liberal then, because many players would play until it was all gone anyway, but primarily because the casinos didn't pay attention to or realize the mathematical advantage that the players were getting. I believe Wizard has also mentioned making substantial bank with online gambling in the early days, but I'm not 100% sure.



Yes, the late 90s and early 00s were the golden era of bonus hunting. I wish I had been more aggressive with it but back then I had my doubts about ever getting my money back out. My favorite bonus was the Golden Palace. 20% on monthly deposits up to 10,000 dollars. The wagering requirement was 1x the bonus and they had a blackjack game with 0.1% house edge. So you get 2,000 every month and only give them back 2.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 8th, 2018 at 10:03:33 AM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

You always lose even when you win. There are two methods the online bandits make sure you always LOSE.

1) SIGN UP BONUS
Some of them bandits offer outrageous bonuses! I saw bonuses of 5000 Euros! ONE MUST AVOID THE BONUSES AT ALL COSTS! I knew about that extortion scheme and I declined the bonus. One must read carefully before accepting the signup bonus:

“Prior to accepting any bonus, you will be notified of the total Rollover Point amount that is tied to each bonus. This Rollover Point amount needs to be met in full prior to being able to request a withdrawal.”

Accepting the signup bonus is like accepting your own imprisonment. You are tied to your online account until you lose your money entirely. If you win, you can’t withdraw your money that includes the bonus. You must bet again and again and again. If you want to claim the bonus you must bet, on average, 10 times your initial deposit. Chances are big the vast majority of players will lose all their money after, say, 5 bets. Lose all your money means you also lost your signup “bonus”.

2) WITHDRAWAL
This is the most outrageous tactic applied by the online bandits. I put an online casino to the test. I placed a bet in the last Super Bowl. I had a high level of confidence I’d win by betting on Philadelphia Eagles +5. I did win easily as I posted my bet at least two days before the game.

Now, I wanted to withdraw all the money in my account.
First, the player is hit by an outrageous FEE: US$ 60. The worst is still to come. Here is what the online criminal casino I dealt with email me after my withdrawal request:

“Thank you for contacting GTbets.eu.
• We would like to inform you that in order to receive a payout, should you have deposited by credit, prepaid or debit card, you will be required to fill out our Credit Card Authorization Form verifying the original charges before any payments can be processed.
• We need from you:
• Front & Back copy of the credit card ending – ****
• Front & Back copy of your ID
• Signed authorization form ( Contact us for the electronic form)
• Recent utility bill ( not older than 3 months)”


They already verified my ID and also security requirements when I opened my account. Now, they go dangerously further, including disclosing sensitive information. Revealing credit card and other personal data can lead and usually leads to DISASTER: ID theft, banking breaches, etc. But the criminals claim: “… the security procedures are given to you in the email so you can protect yourself from Identity theft as well.”

Those “requirements” are only elements of a scheme to make it virtually impossible to withdraw your own money. Forget about bonus and all that garbage!

I warned about the criminal online gambling outlets in the early 2000s. The online bandits are more sophisticated than ever — and more criminal than ever!

There have been strong warnings all over the Internet:

saliu. com/ bbs/ messages/ 844. html
“Online, Internet Casinos Survive Only by Cheating the Gamblers.”

saliu. com/ bbs/ messages/ 850. html
“Reports of Cheating in Online, Internet Gambling.”

But, hey, all gambling has always been the realm of organized crime. You go to Las Vegas, enter a casino, and gamble with the hope of winning. No one is warned at the entrance “You are not allowed to win!” It happens that you win, the casino management starts panicking; they fear you are a “trained winner”. You might as well end up in what they call “back room”. They might as well beat the lights out of you…



NO doubt one can easily spot the representatives of online casinos in this thread. To be fair, I do accept they have a right to present their position. Mission146, beachbumbabs, AxelWolf are undoubtedly in this category.

One of my points is:

The online casinos apply schemes to make withdrawing money extremely hard, even impossible.

• First off, they try very hard to HIDE sensitive information at sign-up; such pieces of data would deter registration (e.g. “utility bill necessary for withdrawal”).
• Online-casino representatives here stress the legitimacy of photocopying and photoshopping (as in PhotoShop) very sensitive documents. In truth, it is not for “the security of the gambler” — emailing such documents, especially to a bunch of bandits, endangers the user’s security.

• There is security verification at sign-up. It is the SAME verified gambler who makes a withdrawal. Why do it again, and again, and again?
And why make the verification a whole lot harder and more dangerous when requesting a withdrawal? To burden the user, to make that hard that many gamblers just give up — that’s why.
• Not to mention that the documents emailed, even if a gullible gambler accepts all those terrible procedures, are almost never accepted in the first try. There is something wrong virtually always. “DO IT AGAIN, SUCKER,” the online criminals yell!
• It is obvious that all FAKE security requirements enforced by the online bandits are SMOKE SCREENS. They are definitely meant to DISCOURAGE gamblers from withdrawing money from their accounts.

• Opening an online gambling accounts is meant to DONATE money to the online criminalos. All that money deposited is meant to drain in the bank accounts of the online bandits.
• And, oh, those stories of “gamblers crushing the online casinos” are the stinkiest fabricated stories. As for the “reviews of online casinos”: they are similar to the fake reviews on Amazon.

As MrV put it so eloquently:

“Online casinos: home of degenerate gamblers, fools, and shut ins.
'Nuf said.”

No wonder the U.S. government opposes online gambling. It is extremely hard to keep FRAUD from happening, or keeping it under control. As for non-U.S.-based online gambling outlets: They are a huge NO-NO. Most U.S. banks rightly deny payments when trying to deposit to a gambling facility. They are aware of the numerous complaints they would have to deal with…
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 10:42:33 AM permalink
Weezer, would you mind arguing with actual facts from time to time?

If you don't want to play online, don't play online. A casino acting according to the stated Terms & Conditions, available for perusal prior to even signing up, is hardly, "Criminal," as the Thread Title implies.

I also don't work for any online casinos. If a bonus is profitable and I analyze it, I say that it is profitable and why. If it is not profitable, I mathematically detail why the ways that I would play it do not yield an expected profit. I have even described many bonuses from casinos we advertise as being, "Worse than just making a deposit without taking a bonus." So, if you could refrain from impugning my integrity by referring to me as a, "Representative of online casinos," that would be appreciated. This site advertises online casinos, I write stuff for this site, but I do not represent the interests of any online casino or casinos.

I think many online casinos would prefer had Axel never played there, so calling him a, "Representative," is laughable.

The only arguments I have made against the OP's position have consisted of readily verifiable facts.

Oh, you are the OP. Okay, you could have read what the casino would want for a withdrawal on the Cashier page prior to making your deposit or even signing up for the casino account. If you didn't do that, it's entirely on you that you find yourself surprised now.

One of us has a vendetta, here, but I don't think it's me.

Quote: Weezer

One of my points is:

The online casinos apply schemes to make withdrawing money extremely hard, even impossible.

• First off, they try very hard to HIDE sensitive information at sign-up; such pieces of data would deter registration (e.g. “utility bill necessary for withdrawal”).
• Online-casino representatives here stress the legitimacy of photocopying and photoshopping (as in PhotoShop) very sensitive documents. In truth, it is not for “the security of the gambler” — emailing such documents, especially to a bunch of bandits, endangers the user’s security.
• There is security verification at sign-up. It is the SAME verified gambler who makes a withdrawal. Why do it again, and again, and again?
And why make the verification a whole lot harder and more dangerous when requesting a withdrawal? To burden the user, to make that hard that many gamblers just give up — that’s why.
• Not to mention that the documents emailed, even if a gullible gambler accepts all those terrible procedures, are almost never accepted in the first try. There is something wrong virtually always. “DO IT AGAIN, SUCKER,” the online criminals yell!
• It is obvious that all FAKE security requirements enforced by the online bandits are SMOKE SCREENS. They are definitely meant to DISCOURAGE gamblers from withdrawing money from their accounts.



1.) What is, "Extremely hard," or, "Impossible," about providing the requested documents? If you found the task so onerous, one would think you would have looked into the procedure prior to making a deposit...by clicking the, "Cashier," page, calling or using the Live Chat and they would have told you what would be needed. Since that is, "Extremely hard," or, "Impossible," for you to do, one would think you would have opted not to make a deposit.

2.) You agreed to all of the Terms and Conditions upon creating your account.

3.) They didn't hide anything about the utility bill, it's right on the Cashier page that you can access prior to making a deposit or even creating an account.

4.) Anything on the documents that you would wish not to share, simply request to be allowed to cover that up. The vast majority of the information on those documents is information that you've already given them...assuming you played with your own name and proper information, of course.

5.) You could have easily known what would be required for a withdrawal prior to creating an account or making a deposit.

6.) Are they? Have you tried to E-Mail them, yet? I usually take a picture of the documents with my phone and then create a file with the picture. I think only once have I ever been asked to resend anything because they said the front of my DL was blurry.

7.) I have stated the actual reasons why online casinos have those requirements...the ones they told you about before you made a deposit. So sorry if you don't like them.

Quote:

• Opening an online gambling accounts is meant to DONATE money to the online criminalos. All that money deposited is meant to drain in the bank accounts of the online bandits.
• And, oh, those stories of “gamblers crushing the online casinos” are the stinkiest fabricated stories. As for the “reviews of online casinos”: they are similar to the fake reviews on Amazon.



1.) Proof?

2.) Proof?

Quote:

No wonder the U.S. government opposes online gambling. It is extremely hard to keep FRAUD from happening, or keeping it under control. As for non-U.S.-based online gambling outlets: They are a huge NO-NO. Most U.S. banks rightly deny payments when trying to deposit to a gambling facility. They are aware of the numerous complaints they would have to deal with…



1.) Yeah, the U.S. Government opposes it so fervently that the states are allowed to license such operations, if they wish. Many of these operations, such as 888 Casino in New Jersey, also operate outside of the State of New Jersey.

2.) It is hard to keep fraud from happening, which is why the documentation is needed.

3.) The U.S. banks deny payments because, per the UIGEA, they are not allowed to knowingly transact with overseas online casinos. That doesn't make it illegal for a player to play or casinos outside of the United States to offer their services. It has nothing to do with the banks receiving complaints.

----

Again, feel free to speak using facts at any time it might be convenient for you. If you continue to come back with mouth-running, conjecture, speculation and non-facts, expect it to be challenged. As you pointed out, though, you do have a right to speak.
Vultures can't be choosers.
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 10:49:38 AM permalink
MrV noted that "Online casinos: home of degenerate gamblers, fools, and shut ins."

I gamble almost exclusively online in the UK and while I don't feel at all offended by MrV, I think I'd like to put in a few words. Degenerate: Tick. Gambler: Tick. Fool, maybe.

Over the last half decade, I've noted the growth in mainstream gambling names building an online presence. They now have prime-time TV ads and are accepted here as respectable and acceptable places of adult entertainment. Unlike the USA, we have no gambling taxes to worry about and no practical restrictions on money transfers between casino and player. Typically, I credit my online casino by debit card or paypal and if I choose to withdraw funds, that is done the same way without fees, occasionally with a 3 day or so 'cooling down' period.'

Bonus terms used to be stupidly exploitable by APs. Guess what happened: They got exploited and the online gaffs wised up. Some went too far. Generally, the bonuses available from good online gaffs are revenue neutral and are no more than regular 'marketing spend'

By comparison, your US friendly online gaffs are forced to jump through hoops with things like Canadian cheques, bitcoin, or whatever. It's hardly surprising that they have to pass on some costs.
I've encountered SOME online casinos that are 'white label' gaffs. Those use a shared platform and seem to be owned by small outfits which apply their own silly tricks. I've also encountered gaffs that I wouldn't touch with YOUR barge-pole: Gaffs that are based in some god-forsaken South Pacific island, registered in some other country that I've barely heard of and 'certified' by some guy in Canada with a photocopy converted to pdf.

Simply put. Caveat emptor. Read trusted reviews, not the top 5 google results. Read the bonus terms and conditions, then read them again. And trust the online gaffs exactly as far as you can throw them - no further.

But they are not all crooks. Sort the wheat from the chaff - do due diligence. Then partake, or don't partake.

Maybe partake and exploit. It's still possible.
If you are enjoying the game, you're already winning.
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 8th, 2018 at 11:40:24 AM permalink
@Mission146

What we both have in common: Long posts to cover all [possible] points we see valid or invalid.

In my opinion: your long and convoluted reply is nothing more than a SMOKESCREEN.
You dutifully smokescreen the INTENT of the online casinos to keep all deposited money in the accounts until everything is lost by gambling.

In another thread here, you replied to me between these lines:

“Nobody put a gun to your head [to force you to gamble online].”

That tells a lot about personality (possibly your job too).
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
Joined: Feb 2, 2018
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March 8th, 2018 at 11:46:51 AM permalink
@OnceDear

“I credit my online casino by debit card or paypal and if I choose to withdraw funds, that is done the same way without fees, occasionally with a 3 day or so 'cooling down' period.'”

Are you out of this world, dear Brit, or “in some god-forsaken South Pacific island” discovered by Brits before Brexit?

The conditions you describe are better by orders of magnitude than what brick-and-mortar Las Mafia Vegas offer. I would even consider moving to Britain, if not for that Brexit.

I betcha you losing money in your online gambling endeavours. Supposed you win from time to time? Do your favorite Brexit casinos invoke the “terms and conditions”:

"In the event that Las Vegas USA Casino believes a User is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by Las Vegas USA Casino then Las Vegas USA Casino may, in its absolute discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from a User any bonus or other promotion, or rescind any policy in respect of that User, either temporarily or permanently. "

• "This Agreement, the interpretation and execution thereof, and the relationship between the parties, shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with, the laws of the United Kingdom."


Yet you have to file in some South Pacific island:

"Any claim or dispute arising either directly or indirectly out of this Agreement, shall be brought before the competent court of the country of Panama which court shall have exclusive jurisdiction"

I wonder what would happen should you win BIG all of a sudden?!

“Sort the wheat from the chaff - do due diligence.”

What if there ain’t wheat at all? Most of what you read on the subject describes CHAFF. Methinks your positive outlook is related to your winning insignificantly (and therefore losing quite a bit).

They call it freedom of speech (opinions, in this case).

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