Warning: Raging Bull, Grand Fortune and Malibu Club Casino payment delays

This is truly a fall from grace story. Raging Bull Casino once was LCB approved until they got aquired by the known roguish Virtual Group.

Story: https://latestcasinobonuses.com/news/fall-from-grace-raging-bull-and-sister-sites-lose-good-standing-with-lcb

People are so stupid to trust what is nothing more than a website address. There needs to be an escrow service to hold the money in transit, so a casino can ever just deny a payout. They'd probably just wind up crooked or bought by a super rogue outfit. That actually happened with real estate escrow companies now I think about it, saw it on American Greed.

really?

Quote: onenickelmiracle

People are so stupid to trust what is nothing more than a website address.

you need to give online players more credit. Sure there are newbies who are clueless, but proportionally there is much much more casinos in good standing than the rogues.

Quote: Zuga

you need to give online players more credit. Sure there are newbies who are clueless, but proportionally there is much much more casinos in good standing than the rogues.

Until you actually beat them. Then "Good Standing" is only worth as much as they determine they can get away with. It's all a math calculation, should we pay this guy or not? Or should we use the fine print the sucker agreed to, to not pay him.

As long as there is no real consequence to not paying and reopening under a new name, most players are only 1 big win away from being screwed.

Sadly as much as you try, you can't change that simple fact. Too many greedy people operating these casinos never expecting to lose.

Quote: Zuga

you need to give online players more credit. Sure there are newbies who are clueless, but proportionally there is much much more casinos in good standing than the rogues.

Just as there are many bookies whose only contact with their customers has been by phone and nickname; yet betting continues. The trouble is that you can track down a bookie, you can track down a 'bricks and mortar' casino, but tracking down a 'cyberspace casino' is not just difficult but futile.

Ownership may change but customers may not know that ... in a business there is a 'bulk sales law' so that if ownership changes customers and creditors get notice of it.

Its a matter of convenience versus trust. Online play is cheaper than a trip to even a nearby casino much less an expensive Strip casino. It is also possible to play blackjack for twenty minutes online. It may be 'technically' possible to do the same thing at a Las Vegas Strip casino, but in reality who on earth is going to pay for an airplane ticket and a hotel room just to play for twenty minutes.

so clearly online players have certain advantags and some online casinos offer certain inducements from time to time, just as bricks and mortar casinos offer certain sweeteners from time to time.

But its like two kids on a see saw... there has to be trust... and often things go wrong and go wrong in an instant.

Quote: Boz

Until you actually beat them. Then "Good Standing" is only worth as much as they determine they can get away with. It's all a math calculation, should we pay this guy or not? Or should we use the fine print the sucker agreed to, to not pay him.

As long as there is no real consequence to not paying and reopening under a new name, most players are only 1 big win away from being screwed.

Sadly as much as you try, you can't change that simple fact. Too many greedy people operating these casinos never expecting to lose.

any industry, land based or online, has its shady bits. We fight them one at a time.

Quote: Zuga

any industry, land based or online, has its shady bits. We fight them one at a time.

That's all you can do. But comparing it to "any industry " is a joke. Maybe compared to escorts and drug dealers, yes. But compared to B & M casinos, regular online retailers and other legitimate businesses, it is not a fair comparison. The odds of getting f'd out of your money at any online casino is a lot higher than getting ripped off any grocery store.

But it's buyer beware, if you don't know the risks involved, it's on you. If you think you are getting a $5000 bonus without reading the details, it's on you. If is not like buying a gallon of milk.

Quote: Boz

That's all you can do. But comparing it to "any industry " is a joke. Maybe compared to escorts and drug dealers, yes. But compared to B & M casinos, regular online retailers and other legitimate businesses, it is not a fair comparison. The odds of getting f'd out of your money at any online casino is a lot higher than getting ripped off any grocery store.

But it's buyer beware, if you don't know the risks involved, it's on you. If you think you are getting a $5000 bonus without reading the details, it's on you. If is not like buying a gallon of milk.

I think that has more to do with business structure though. Like most big businesses we think of are publicly held companies, so its not just like money can disappear (not easily anyway). For example, I know somebody who was having a ton of expensive work being done by a contractor and he just took the money and ran mid job with no recourse. The added kicker is that a lot of these online casino are foreign businesses and when you are dealing with a foreign business (not a multinational) in any industry they can pull the same shit and get away with it.

Quote: Boz

That's all you can do. But comparing it to "any industry " is a joke. Maybe compared to escorts and drug dealers, yes. But compared to B & M casinos, regular online retailers and other legitimate businesses, it is not a fair comparison. The odds of getting f'd out of your money at any online casino is a lot higher than getting ripped off any grocery store.

But it's buyer beware, if you don't know the risks involved, it's on you. If you think you are getting a $5000 bonus without reading the details, it's on you. If is not like buying a gallon of milk.

I beg to differ. the only joke are claims like yours coming from people that never or barely gamble online. Personally I played at hundreds of online casinos, and literary I had issue only once or twice ( Documents approval back in a day when I was a newbie player and clueless how this is being done ).

If you know what you are doing, do your due diligence and research, read the casino portals like ours, then it is pretty safe to gamble online.

Sure thing, there is bit of a Wild West feel to this industry when it comes to those unregulated and rogue casinos. But to make a correlation to drug dealers and prostitution only shows you know very little about online gambling.

Quote: Zuga

I beg to differ. the only joke are claims like yours coming from people that never or barely gamble online. Personally I played at hundreds of online casinos, and literary I had issue only once or twice ( Documents approval back in a day when I was a newbie player and clueless how this is being done ).

If you know what you are doing, do your due diligence and research, read the casino portals like ours, then it is pretty safe to gamble online.

Sure thing, there is bit of a Wild West feel to this industry when it comes to those unregulated and rogue casinos. But to make a correlation to drug dealers and prostitution only shows you know very little about online gambling.

I appreciate the fact that this forum exists because of people like you pushing ads for online casinos. You guys understand that the majority of people who post here don't gamble online, yet you allow this forum to exist hoping others visit and click on the links. For that I thank you.

But NO, the industry is not the same as every other business. Unless most offer $11000 "Welcome Bonus" offers just to patronize them. As I have said, anyone that gets ripped off after winning has no one to blame but themselves. If someone does the research, understands the terms and is willing to provide as much information as you need to get a mortgage, then they are making a choice. You still have to accept you are dealing with a phantom somewhere in cyber space banking in a 3rd world country and you might not get your money if you win.

Again no matter what you do trying to police the business, there is nothing you can do other than threaten. You are not an authority that has ways to collect for the customer. Unless the business determines your pressure will cost them more than just paying the guy, you can only warn the next guy.

As for the drug dealers and ho's. I can say the exact same thing you stated about your business. In most cases you will get what you paid for, but there is always the chance you will get robbed, ripped off or end up with a burning sensation.. Most people don't feel going to the store or a B & M casino is like the Wild Wild West*. So yes, I see your industry as having more in common with those 2 illegal businesses, at least in the US, than standard legitimate businesses. But we all are welcome to our own opinions. And again I do appreciate that your group funds this site allowing us to have these discussions.

Best wishes! Boz

* Unless you are actually at the Wild Wild West Casino in Atlantic City

meh..

I agree with Zuga, but he knows I say do not gamble unless you are 100% confident. My point is there are plenty of sites at which you can be 100% confident, and some of those have +EV.

I think there might be a reason casinos don't use bitcoin. Lots of them are funded by player deposits, not winnings, like full tilt was. You shouldn't have to allow them your money when you're not gambling. The bonuses seem so often propping up ponzi scheme finances, just doesn't make sense to me casinos needing to trick people into losing all their money.

Quote: Mission146

I agree with Zuga, but he knows I say do not gamble unless you are 100% confident. My point is there are plenty of sites at which you can be 100% confident, and some of those have +EV.

This statement makes no scene to me at all. Isn't this thread and the LCB article indicating just the opposite that?


Here is part of the article from LCB

Raging Bull used to be an excellent casino and we acknowledged this fact by giving them our Seal of Approval. Until recently, they were regarded as one the best RTG powered brands and had a 4-star rating at LCB. The same was thought of the sister sites Grand Fortune and Malibu Club. What has been particularly great about them was their top-notch customer support. Jason the Rep represented the company in the best way possible - he was an awesome guy, always actively participating on the site, and his friendly and pleasant character made collaboration with him easy for both the LCB team and members. But that all changed around February 2017 when the casinos changed owners - that's when things started going downhill.

All three Fast Track Affiliates brands were bought off by a known rogue organization Virtual Casino Group and placed under the GWages affiliate program. Nothing was officially announced, there was no information of any kind released to the public and we had no idea what was happening with the sites. Only when complaints started pouring in by distraught players did we realized something's not quite right here. Two of our members had it pretty bad with the group, Cobra with Raging Bull and Yobaboy with Grand Fortune, having had their cash-out requests denied or delayed for months without a good reason. With Jason gone, we had a lot of trouble establishing communication with these casinos. However, they did eventually answer back telling us about the management change and asking for patience and understanding until things settle down and the order is resumed. Since they have, allegedly, went through three management shifts and had the headquarters in shambles, we decided to give them the benefit of the doubt, wait for a while and see what happens. We did strip their recommended status immediately, removing them from the list of approved casinos. Weeks later, the situation remains the same: the complaints are still unresolved, the support is silent, the websites not updated according to the new terms and conditions that the company has set out. It is clear that the brands have lost all integrity and there is really no point in waiting for any improvement.
------

That sound to me like you can get the rug pulled out from under you even at a trusted online casino.
Can you name an unregulated online casino you think we should have 100% confidence in?

I dont think you can be 100% confidant playing at any unregulated online casino. And I'm talking about just getting paid. I'm not even counting all the other bad things that could happen. I dont know any unregulated casino that has been fully and independently tested for randomness.

Look what recently happened at BV(and all the other casinos) with the Betsoft software.
Someone just caught what looked like a dealer cheating on a live online BJ game.
The list goes on.

I'm not saying people shouldn't play online. With some investigation your odds of getting screwed are significantly lower than many people on gambling forums tend to think. I hear value players and even some AP's saying they would never play online. IMO that's foolish of them since there is some good opportunities and the reward is far greater than the risk.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm not saying people shouldn't play online. With some investigation your odds of getting screwed are significantly lower than many people on gambling forums tend to think. I hear value players and even some AP's saying they would never play online. IMO that's foolish of them since there is some good opportunities and the reward is far greater than the risk.

That's my overall point, some sites are safer than others and one should stick to the sites known as extremely safe. Also, while people might not always follow news like ownership changes, they should for just that reason.

Quote: Mission146

That's my overall point, some sites are safer than others and one should stick to the sites known as extremely safe. Also, while people might not always follow news like ownership changes, they should for just that reason.

"extremely safe." ROTFLMAO.... You should be a promoter and a PR person.

I will say this. There are people who love to value gamble, people who play smarter than the average ploppy. They try to get the best deals and whatnot, occasionally break even or find themselves on something that is +EV. ( I think that's the point of WOV/WOO.)

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at, they are not AP's, but they kinda know what they are doing. When they go to have fun and gamble they play whatever the best game is available to them, its almost always something that's -EV. If they took the time to look for and take advantage of online
+EV bonuses and other online opportunities I do believe they would be better off in the long run and have an over all advantage, even if you factored in all the online gambling pitfalls.

Just read this and is one of the main reasons I'll never do online anything. This type of conduct is all over the internet. Yea, I know this site and all the rest are now all about online. Oh well.

https://latestcasinobonuses.com/news/fall-from-grace-raging-bull-and-sister-sites-lose-good-standing-with-lcb

Quote: Mission146

That's my overall point, some sites are safer than others and one should stick to the sites known as extremely safe. Also, while people might not always follow news like ownership changes, they should for just that reason.

And who's telling them any offline casino is safe?
The off shore unregulated casino is.
And sites like this.

Meh indeed Mr. Zuga

I've never heard of someone saying, "If you do your due diligence with grocery stores and read up on them, read the fine print, etc. etc. then very low chance of being screwed."

Granted, this isn't a grocery-shopping forum and it is a gambling forum, but I don't think I've ever heard of a story of a grocery store stealing from a customer (aside from a rogue employee who double-swipes an item or a credit card and pockets the difference sort of thing). I've also heard plenty of stories of online casinos not paying (effectively stealing from) their customers.

If you have to spend 10x the effort on researching casinos to make sure you have a low probability of getting screwed over actual playing in the casino...not to mention once you do find a good place, you have to be on the lookout to make sure they don't turn rogue....and who's to say if/when they do turn rogue, it's not on you?.....it's not a safe environment or however y'all trying to make it seem. It's not like once the casino is deemed to be "safe" then it'll be safe forever.


Your money is probably safer if you're dealing with drug dealers than it is with online casinos.

Quote: RS

I've never heard of someone saying, "If you do your due diligence with grocery stores and read up on them, read the fine print, etc. etc. then very low chance of being screwed."

Granted, this isn't a grocery-shopping forum and it is a gambling forum, but I don't think I've ever heard of a story of a grocery store stealing from a customer (aside from a rogue employee who double-swipes an item or a credit card and pockets the difference sort of thing). I've also heard plenty of stories of online casinos not paying (effectively stealing from) their customers.

If you have to spend 10x the effort on researching casinos to make sure you have a low probability of getting screwed over actual playing in the casino...not to mention once you do find a good place, you have to be on the lookout to make sure they don't turn rogue....and who's to say if/when they do turn rogue, it's not on you?.....it's not a safe environment or however y'all trying to make it seem. It's not like once the casino is deemed to be "safe" then it'll be safe forever.


Your money is probably safer if you're dealing with drug dealers than it is with online casinos.

Interestingly enough, off shore, out of reach casinos know everything about you once you sign up than you can ever know or find out about them. Everything.

Quote:

Quote: onenickelmiracle
People are so stupid to trust what is nothing more than a website address.

Quote:

Zuga: you need to give online players more credit. Sure there are newbies who are clueless, but proportionally there is much much more casinos in good standing than the rogues.

Zuga:
Happen to find this thread again. So, who is doing the quantifying of on-line casinos?
You? A entity trying to profit from online casinos? The online casino's themselves? Who of course can't or won't advertise anything negative about themselves? Who's stamp of 'good standing' are we using concerning an industry not allowed to operate in the United States because online casinos refuse to allow any regulation or pay taxes? Those entities?

I hate taxes, but I like living in the US. I truly believe the American citizen is getting taxed to death. But I try and pay taxes as best I can.

That said, there are plenty of articles where individual owners of online casinos proudly state they won't ever pay taxes or let the US government regulate them.

The biggest reg flag is there is no online casino is based in the US. Any other claim is a lie. The actual owners are not Inc'd or licensed in the US. The online casinos are fond of advertising their websites being in the US. That's a straw dog ploy. No actual financial transaction are ever carried out in a US website as to do so would trigger our laws about internet commerce. All transactions are other overseas IP's. You know this very well, I'm not telling you anything new. Also, an online casino claiming association with a US established casino is another facade, as research will show that the offline entity is 'sponsored' by but not directly owned or listed on a US casinos financials. Many layers of manipulations there. But maybe other people weren't aware of this.

There really isn't any online casino that can be used in confidence.

I give you credit for trying to improve your way of life through hard work and drive.

I think you do a disservice to readers and others by perpetuating some sort of false premise that online gambling is somehow completely safe.
Obviously, like most things, it's user/buyer/gambler beware.
And yes, I understand this site is now a main online gambling advertising venue. Which is why I rarely post any more. IMO of course.
GL

Quote: Mission146

I agree with Zuga, but he knows I say do not gamble unless you are 100% confident. My point is there are plenty of sites at which you can be 100% confident, and some of those have +EV.

100% confident? lol Mission you're usually on point, but that's just blatantly false. I've had the most reputable of sites rip me off because they messed something up (promotion, payout, etc, etc) and I was able to actually beat them.

Show me an online casino in good standing... Show me someone winning $10k off them... Then I'll show you a casino no longer in good standing. Online casinos seem to work as intended if:

A) You lose.
B) Your action is small.

just one small point i wanted to make. they are not casinos but i am referring to legal u.s. based horse race betting sites. i have used several different sites over several years. i believe these businesses to be totally 100% legitimate and above board. there is absolute zero problems with their promotions or payouts. i've never even heard of any player having a problem with one of these sites. i know there are not many horse players on this site but i thought this post could possibly be useful to a few people.

Quote: Romes

100% confident? lol Mission you're usually on point, but that's just blatantly false. I've had the most reputable of sites rip me off because they messed something up (promotion, payout, etc, etc) and I was able to actually beat them.

Show me an online casino in good standing... Show me someone winning $10k off them... Then I'll show you a casino no longer in good standing. Online casinos seem to work as intended if:

A) You lose.
B) Your action is small.

I believe this has already been addressed and answered. I think I said the same thing.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/online/28571-warning-raging-bull-grand-fortune-and-malibu-club-casino-payment-delays/2/#post584543.

There are some non-regulated sites I have high confidence in. With that being said, I wouldn't invest too much time or money trying to AP online unless my advantage was significant. -1%-2%, not enough. with a few exceptions, I would want at least a 15% advantage.

TBH, I don't think the average joe playing for entertainment at a half way reputable online casino will have too many issues. No one complains when everything goes well, we only hear about the bad stuff.

Quote: Romes

100% confident? lol Mission you're usually on point, but that's just blatantly false. I've had the most reputable of sites rip me off because they messed something up (promotion, payout, etc, etc) and I was able to actually beat them.

Show me an online casino in good standing... Show me someone winning $10k off them... Then I'll show you a casino no longer in good standing. Online casinos seem to work as intended if:

A) You lose.
B) Your action is small.

Not only is that online, you just perfectly described the casino industry as a whole.

Quote: sammydv

Not only is that online, you just perfectly described the casino industry as a whole.

Totally disagree. Win a slot jackpot at a B & M casino and you will get paid and maybe your picture on the wall. Nothing like the risks you take online. No comparison at all.

Quote: Romes

100% confident? lol Mission you're usually on point, but that's just blatantly false. I've had the most reputable of sites rip me off because they messed something up (promotion, payout, etc, etc) and I was able to actually beat them.

Show me an online casino in good standing... Show me someone winning $10k off them... Then I'll show you a casino no longer in good standing. Online casinos seem to work as intended if:

A) You lose.
B) Your action is small.

Honestly, a lot of information about online gambling on this site and other US-dominated AP websites is far too negative. If you're purely referring to experiences that a US resident is likely to face then this may be accurate since I'm aware the environment over there is not as good for online gambling. But as a non-US resident, I've made +EV plays at literally hundreds of online casinos and had hundreds of $10k+ cashouts without any issues whatsoever. The number of times I've not been paid is a tiny fraction of my total activity. And there certainly are huge differences between the reputable brands/licenses/groups and the dodgy ones - even out of the small number of no-pays I've had, most have come from casinos that I knew were dodgy going in. If you (not you in particular, but the general 'you') are an APer who doesn't live in the US and are ignoring online gambling because of some perception that the payment risk is too high then you're not acting all that optimally IMO.

Quote: Tree

Honestly, a lot of information about online gambling on this site and other US-dominated AP websites is far too negative. If you're purely referring to experiences that a US resident is likely to face then this may be accurate since I'm aware the environment over there is not as good for online gambling. But as a non-US resident, I've made +EV plays at literally hundreds of online casinos and had hundreds of $10k+ cashouts without any issues whatsoever. The number of times I've not been paid is a tiny fraction of my total activity. And there certainly are huge differences between the reputable brands/licenses/groups and the dodgy ones - even out of the small number of no-pays I've had, most have come from casinos that I knew were dodgy going in. If you (not you in particular, but the general 'you') are an APer who doesn't live in the US and are ignoring online gambling because of some perception that the payment risk is too high then you're not acting all that optimally IMO.

There isn't 'hundreds' of online casinos that i can tell and not being paid a tiny fraction in your case based on those numbers mean you've been stiffed for thousands of dollars.

That's thousands of dollars too many.

Quote: sammydv

There isn't 'hundreds' of online casinos that i can tell

I keep a database of my play records and I have literally hundreds of casinos entered in there. If you don't live in the US or another highly regulated territory (spain? france?) then yes there are hundreds of online casinos available to play at.

Quote:

and not being paid a tiny fraction in your case based on those numbers mean you've been stiffed for thousands of dollars.

That's thousands of dollars too many.

'Too many' by whose standards? I certainly don't mind accepting that risk. Keep in mind that I don't think I've ever been stiffed at say the top 25-50 online casinos (most reputable). They will only keep your winnings if you break their terms and conditions in some way. The ones that have no-paid me in some way are usually the online equivalent of flying to a third world country with corrupt/no legal system and trying to brazenly win a lot of money in some shady looking casino - you usually know the risks. It's not that hard to figure out which casinos are like that.

Online APing also comes with its own advantages - you can access all of these casinos without leaving your house. No travel/accommodation costs and your hourly rate is much higher if you don't have to 'commute'

Quote: Tree

I keep a database of my play records and I have literally hundreds of casinos entered in there. If you don't live in the US or another highly regulated territory (spain? france?) then yes there are hundreds of online casinos available to play at.




'Too many' by whose standards? I certainly don't mind accepting that risk. Keep in mind that I don't think I've ever been stiffed at say the top 25-50 online casinos (most reputable). They will only keep your winnings if you break their terms and conditions in some way. The ones that have no-paid me in some way are usually the online equivalent of flying to a third world country with corrupt/no legal system and trying to brazenly win a lot of money in some shady looking casino - you usually know the risks. It's not that hard to figure out which casinos are like that.

Online APing also comes with its own advantages - you can access all of these casinos without leaving your house. No travel/accommodation costs and your hourly rate is much higher if you don't have to 'commute'

Your hard-won opinion would be very valuable, if you were to list your top 25 reputable casinos. I don't know very many people who have the amount of play and experience you have, since I live in the US. Of course, I understand if you would prefer not to do this.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Your hard-won opinion would be very valuable, if you were to list your top 25 reputable casinos. I don't know very many people who have the amount of play and experience you have, since I live in the US. Of course, I understand if you would prefer not to do this.

I'm in two minds about this and I've only given 10 names for the following reasons

I don't want to be responsible for anybody having a bad experience, so I should emphasise that the following names are only places where I have in the past personally had large regular payouts without any issues, and where I expect I could still have a smooth experience. I make no guarantees about their general conduct and this shouldn't be consistuted as advice on where to play or anything other than a description of my experiences.

I also don't want to give away any profitable opportunities or anything even the slightest bit obscure on such a public forum, so there are many names I haven't listed. These are just the biggest most well known names that I assume any online gambler to be aware of.

Bet365
William Hill
Ladbrokes
BGO
32red
Paddy power
Gala Casino/Coral (haven't played much at the latter but expect similar experiences)
Unibet
Virgin Casino/Jackpot Joy
Genting Casino


Edit: sorry if that's too obvious or doesn't go far enough to prove my point. I will however prioritise protecting information (especially on a public forum), which I hope you understand