WARNING - Betsoft rigged software

Hi WoV'ers, be warned!

our sister site CasinoListings.com has issued a warning related to Betsoft software progressives. Read why: https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games

"Lastly, we wish to make it clear that we do not believe that Bovada, Slots.lv, or any other casinos running these games, are responsible for these discrepancies."

Can you explain more why the casino and the betsoft would not both be reliable?

Isn't the casino profiting from this? Shouldn't the players who played at BV and Slots LV on betsofts games get a refund from BV and SlotsLV, and then BV can go after Betsoft?

Can someone explain how it is that Bovada and Slots LV didn't notice the games were holding a higher percentage than they should have been?

I think its the casinos responsibility to make sure the software they are using is fair to it's players.

They should pay the players all their losses on them games and then sue betsoft.

So are ALL games on Bovada run by BetSoft? If so, does that mean Bovada is no longer recommended? If it's a mix, how do we tell what games are, and what games aren't BetSoft games?

Bovada/Slots.lv did the right thing immediately and removed all progressive jackpot games from their sites.

That is some great reporting! BetSoft is a big player in this business so it took a lot of courage to go after them. My compliments on a very well-documented case.

Quote: Zuga

Bovada/Slots.lv did the right thing immediately and removed all progressive jackpot games from their sites.

Does Bovada/Slots.lv offer other Betsoft games? If so, wouldn't it be prudent for you to suggest people don't play at either of their sites until all Betsoft games are removed? Once they prove that that all the games are fair Bovada/Slots.lv could put them back on the site. it is reasonable to assume other games have similar issues until a complete audit is done on all games.

What advantages does Betsoft have by selling rigged software - besides the obvious of increasedsales to scrupulous casinos? The casino running the software seems to get all the benefits. Ultimately didn't Bovada steal players money by not awarding jackpots?

Quote: DRich

Does Bovada/Slots.lv offer other Betsoft games? If so, wouldn't it be prudent for you to suggest people don't play at either of their sites until all Betsoft games are removed? Once they prove that that all the games are fair Bovada/Slots.lv could put them back on the site. it is reasonable to assume other games have similar issues until a complete audit is done on all games.

No less than 50 of their most popular slot games are made by betsoft and many of them also have progressives on them. I would say a majority of their slots are bet soft, not to mention keno and scratch cards.

So we hear about slow and no payouts and now there is rigged software on the site. How do 2 recent events not make this site not recommended.

Quote: GWAE

So we hear about slow and no payouts and now there is rigged software on the site. How do 2 recent events not make this site not recommended.

They haven't stolen any software yet.

Received this email today. I didn't realize it was so many games. Aztek and sugar pop were 2 of my favorites. I have played a lot of those 2 through bovada and a few others over the years. It makes me very angry that I may have been getting screwed. In fact I hit a jackpot with Aztec through Kool cat casino many years ago and they refused the payout. I never didnget a single penny out of the progressive tha I won. I think that was more of an issue with the casino over the software.

Please note that we are performing a game library update today.
We'd like to apologize for any inconvenience this may cause as we recognize that a number of these games featured progressive jackpots that were very popular with our players. We are exploring options now to replace those jackpot games, please stay tuned for more details later this week.
Moving forward, the following games will no longer be available:

2 Million BC
A Night in Paris
After Night Falls
Arrival
At The Movies
Aztec Treasures
Back in Time
Barbary Coast
Black Gold
Boomanji
Common Draw Roulette
Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde
Enchanted
Event Horizon
Fruit Zen
Genie's Fortune
Gladiator
Gold Diggers
Gypsy Rose
Heist
House of Fun
It Came From Venus
Lost
Lucky 7
Mad Scientist
Madder Scientist
Mamma Mia
More Gold Diggin'
Ned and his Friends
Once Upon A Time
Paco and the Popping Peppers
Pinocchio
Puppy Love Plus
RockStar
Rook's Revenge
Royal Reels
Safari Sam
Seventh Heaven
Skratcherz
SlotFather
SugarPop
Sushi Bar
The Curious Machine
The Exterminator
The True Sheriff
True Illusions
Under the Bed
Under the Sea
Viking Age
Virtual RaceBook
Weekend in Vegas
Who Spun it?

Sincerely,


Bovada Customer Service
service@bovada.lv
1-888-263-0000


You are subscribed to promotional mailings. We respect your privacy and you can unsubscribe any time. To report abuse, please contact abuse@bovada.lv.

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P.O. Box 2190, Kahnawake, QC, J0L 1B0.
EDM-17487

I'm assuming all star slots used those games too? I just signed up through the Wizards link 2 months ago- I think I'm about to dispute the charges

I'll say this:

I've played a lot of one of the slots listed, at all different denominations. The RNG was very interesting..

All Star Slots = Real Time Gaming software

SO what happens now to those JACKPOTS? thats players money not the casinos correct?

Quote: Wizardofnothing

I think I'm about to dispute the charges

I wouldn't recommend that if you ever want to gamble online again.

Can someone explain how this works. Why would betsoft make rigged software unless its something the casinos themselves want?

Don't they just make and sell the games to the casinos? Or do they get a cut of the profits?

I ask again how would BV and Slots.lv and other casinos NOT KNOW they were holding a much higher percentage? Its not like BJ or VP where people can make mistakes.
Don't they get audited? What company audits them if any?

Last RNG certification was 2014????http://www.gamingassociates.com/CertSystem/Domain/ShowPayouts.aspx

I'm no document expert but it looks like this is the same exact one on bodogs and slots.lv with only the name of the casino chagned http://www.gamingassociates.com/CertSystem/Domain/ShowPayouts.aspx

http://www.gamingassociates.com/CertSystem/Domain/ShowPayouts.aspx.

Perhaps they are all owned by the same parent company but i would assume each casino would be tested separately? I also dont see any Cogra certification

here is some auditing for Slots.LV September 2015 ahttp://www.itechlabs.com.au/certificates/KGC/Lynton/Lynton_RTP_audit_certificate.pdf


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games

February 2015.There is nothing stopping either a buggy or crooked game from ignoring the generated number and asking for a new one if it doesn't like the result, so for an audit to be effective it must test the simulated results of an actual game, not just the numbers generated by a RNG. On this point we found section P of the Quinel RNG report to be quite salient:

P) Additional information (RGR Part VI, 26.i) The RNG subject to testing (test item J14120011 - I001) was tested independently without any game connected; no integrations between RNG and games were tested.

2014 revocation of Betsoft's Alderney gambling license
Betsoft Gaming had its license suspended in July 2014 by the Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC).

In October 2010, concerned poker players identified a flaw in several keno games provided by Betsoft to disgraced poker brand Absolute Poker.


Since I played a significant amount on BV betsoft games so im very interested and after re-reading reading the article I'm wondering why we are only now getting a warning?

I don't know how much extra the casinos made due to this but shouldn't they figure it out and compensate players who played betsoft games a percentage of their action they ave up while playing?

If players get caught breaking any of their terms and conditions they forfeit winnings and sometimes deposits.

Anyone know what happened to that danial guy that was part of this story and posted all over the place?
He was the guy that got 5 boats on middle payline and the casino/game company were trying to say it was because he didn't play max. Some interesting things went down, like the software company added new text to the screen AFTER the complaint and the machine clearly showed that the jackpot scaled with the play amount.
The player should bet the jackpot., he had screenshots showing his max play. If the casinos want to get really dirty, they can claim photoshopped digitals.

Quote: sammydv

Anyone know what happened to that danial guy that was part of this story and posted all over the place?
He was the guy that got 5 boats on middle payline and the casino/game company were trying to say it was because he didn't play max. Some interesting things went down, like the software company added new text to the screen AFTER the complaint and the machine clearly showed that the jackpot scaled with the play amount.
The player should bet the jackpot., he had screenshots showing his max play. If the casinos want to get really dirty, they can claim photoshopped digitals.

I think they then said you cant win it during a bonus round or something like that.

Quote: AxelWolf

"Lastly, we wish to make it clear that we do not believe that Bovada, , or any other casinos running these games, are responsible for these discrepancies."

Can you explain more why the casino and the betsoft would not both be reliable?

Isn't the casino profiting from this? Shouldn't the players who played at BV and Slots LV on betsofts games get a refund from BV and SlotsLV, and then BV can go after Betsoft?

Can someone explain how it is that Bovada and Slots LV didn't notice the games were holding a higher percentage than they should have been?

I think its the casinos responsibility to make sure the software they are using is fair to it's players.

They should pay the players all their losses on them games and then sue betsoft.

After having the occasion to speak with you in more detail (on that other forum) I actually respect your opinion. (Not that it really matters since I am nothing more than an opinionated nobody.)

After the UIGEA was passed in 2006 many things developed and were exposed and still to the present day about online gaming. I know gambling online is not illegal, but for USA players whoever and whatever means are being used to transfer funds back and forth to online gaming sites are illegal. Banking institutions that are transferring and receiving money to and from online casinos from the USA are doing so because the destinations are being camouflaged which obviously speaks volumes about honesty right out of the gate before even making your first online bet. Of course not in the couple of states (I think 3) in the USA where it is legal.

I’m shocked after witnessing the big poker sites scandals, the endless winners never paid not even eventually in the USA, , money being confiscated by the USA - DOJ , and still to this day numerous confirmed rigged software programs being exposed and even used by the giants in the industry, (regardless how the rigged software got there) how any AP specialist would even consider risking AP money online after all of this.

Are you a real legitimate AP or just a gambling fool willing to take any gamble regardless of the risks? Even if you won money in the past online and actually got paid, when considering all the different shady things that would need to go just right to complete the AP maneuver online from beginning to end, how could any AP today consider this type of unnecessary additional risks when compared to land casinos? How do you factor all this into your AP theory and come to the conclusion that it’s still a good play? I’m not talking about the early 2000’s, I’m talking about today’s (2016) confirmed online environment and what has developed after the UIGEA in 2006.

Most gamblers playing online today are just gamblers needing the gamble fix and will never stop playing till they are broke anyway. These are the people promoters feed off of. But AP's are suppose to be educated gamblers? Please explain why an AP from the USA would play online today? (and not from the three legal states)

Quote: blackhole

After having the occasion to speak with you in more detail (on that other forum) I actually respect your opinion. (Not that it really matters since I am nothing more than an opinionated nobody.)

After the UIGEA was passed in 2006 many things developed and were exposed and still to the present day about online gaming. I know gambling online is not illegal, but for USA players whoever and whatever means are being used to transfer funds back and forth to online gaming sites are illegal. Banking institutions that are transferring and receiving money to and from online casinos from the USA are doing so because the destinations are being camouflaged which obviously speaks volumes about honesty right out of the gate before even making your first online bet. Of course not in the couple of states (I think 3) in the USA where it is legal.

I’m shocked after witnessing the big poker sites scandals, the endless winners never paid not even eventually in the USA, , money being confiscated by the USA - DOJ , and still to this day numerous confirmed rigged software programs being exposed and even used by the giants in the industry, (regardless how the rigged software got there) how any AP specialist would even consider risking AP money online after all of this.

Are you a real legitimate AP or just a gambling fool willing to take any gamble regardless of the risks? Even if you won money in the past online and actually got paid, when considering all the different shady things that would need to go just right to complete the AP maneuver online from beginning to end, how could any AP today consider this type of unnecessary additional risks when compared to land casinos? How do you factor all this into your AP theory and come to the conclusion that it’s still a good play? I’m not talking about the early 2000’s, I’m talking about today’s (2016) confirmed online environment and what has developed after the UIGEA in 2006.

Most gamblers playing online today are just gamblers needing the gamble fix and will never stop playing till they are broke anyway. These are the people promoters feed off of. But AP's are suppose to be educated gamblers? Please explain why an AP from the USA would play online today? (and not from the three legal states)

It's all about risk VS reward. IE, If you find something with an initial deposit of $500 with a reasonable chance you can double that, now use that and double it a few times (all from the comfort of you're own home). Assuming they pay and everything is ok, now perhaps your GF/BF/Sister/ brother/mom/dad does it for you. Next thing you know you have something well worth the risk for a small initial deposit. Occasionally you might find a small gold mine.

Personally I have never really been stiffed (perhaps 1 or 2 times from some small amount under $100 probably due to me not pushing the issue) I'm fairly cautious, nowadays even more(big mistake early on). I always factor in the possibly of getting stiffed. You can afford to get stiffed occasionally.

I would normally test with small amounts between $75 and $150 and make a successful cash out before I proceed.
I would not let balances get to high, I would avoid anything that has monster JP's. I avoid big bets on table games. I would never deposit more than 1k unless I was fairly confident they had a good reputation like 888 or casino on net etc etc.

Mike has mentioned he knows people outside the US that do exceptionally well online. It's possible to do from the US if done properly.

I'm 100% positive you can overcome some types of rigged software and even use it to your advantage.

I'm not antionline gambling I do think there is good value if done right.

Quote: blackhole

After having the occasion to speak with you in more detail (on that other forum) I actually respect your opinion. (Not that it really matters since I am nothing more than an opinionated nobody.)

<snip>

Are you a real legitimate AP or just a gambling fool willing to take any gamble regardless of the risks? <more snip>)

Axel didn't answer this question, probably because it's hard to speak for yourself. He's the real deal.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Axel didn't answer this question, probably because it's hard to speak for yourself. He's the real deal.

Thank you for your wisdom..

Just like evander Holyfield

Anyone hear what that original guys outcome was on this issue?

Quote: sammydv

Anyone hear what that original guys outcome was on this issue?

'

he apparently settled for some ( unknown ) amount and signed the NDA which is preventing him to make any statements.

It is quite possible he settled for far less than what the actual JP win was, but I guess we will never know for sure.

Quote: Zuga

'

he apparently settled for some ( unknown ) amount and signed the NDA which is preventing him to make any statements.

It is quite possible he settled for far less than what the actual JP win was, but I guess we will never know for sure.

I'm not sure if that was a good or bad thing. I guess good for him, but bad for the general gambling public because it covers up the original problems and possible fraud on the public.
But oh well.

Quote: sammydv

I'm not sure if that was a good or bad thing. I guess good for him, but bad for the general gambling public because it covers up the original problems and possible fraud on the public.
But oh well.

yep but as for him he has to take the deal, right? I know I would have.

Well to make the explanation short BV and SlotsLV and confident that their using a good game from Betsoft. We all know that Betsoft is one of the biggest in the online casino business and since they are made a lot of game casino operator would just look how the game mechanics works. If their is a fault is it BetSoft Quality assurance team since they tested it before selling to clients.

I just found this thread. I started researching this issue way back in May and reported on it extensively:

http://vegasclick.com/online/betsoft-jackpot-issue

Quote: MichaelBluejay

I just found this thread. I started researching this issue way back in May and reported on it extensively:

https://easy.vegas/online/betsoft-jackpot-issue

My advice: Don't make max bets on Betsoft slots with progressive jackpots.

That's was your advice? NO ADVICE WOULD HAVE BEEN WAY BETTER. You just found this thread? You should've started this thread back in MAY. Why didn't you post a warning about this or a put up a link to your site here on WOV in BIG BOLD LETTERS long ago?

Thanks for the link, I will definitely need it, because I couldn't find this info or a clear link to this information on your website. It's certainly not promptly displayed from what I can see(THAT'S NOT PUTTING YOUR CUSTOMERS BEST INTEREST AT HEART ), I can't actually find it at all, and I was actually looking fairly hard. I must have a virus or something, because I keep getting redirect clicking that link (and others). So excuse me if you answered or addressed anything I'm ranting about. Not everything I'm actually asking you for an answer.

Only the top jackpot hit frequency on a few of their MANY slot games was tested. What's to say everything else including simple hits or bonus round frequencies wasn't gaffed as well? You know, instead of what should have been 100 spins on an average bonus round it was actually 150 spins on average?

Did someone check all the scratchers and horse racing and other games? Perhaps top prizes were gaffed as well? What about non progressives top jackpots? Even a simple ploppies advice would be, AVOID ALL BETSOFT GAMES COMPLETELY and the casino should've been blacklisted by you and others until the problem was fixed and the proper players were paid back.

This wasn't a small short lived problem, this was an ongoing major problem, I estimate Millions were stolen from players. How far did they go back when calculating how much to give back? Was it from the first time they were noticed/ notified/put on notice? hasn't many of Bet Softs games been at BV for many years? What about slots LV was that calculated?

If a B&M had many rigged slot games (and many more were not even tested)what would your advice be? Just don't bet max on those games?

When many other online casinos were thought to have rigged software, or EVEN WAY LESS of a problem, the entire casino was BLACKLISTED here.
A few Examples


The way BV distributed the rigged jackpot money was irresponsible SELF SERVING and not fair whatsoever. (They probably put in on the worst paying slots available, hell, they could've just set the slots at 70% pay back before adding the money)

Players who got screwed are now(were) FORCED to gamble in order to receive what's rightfully theirs. New players were eligible to win that money, so how is that fair?

Someone could've lost thousands in EV, meanwhile someone else could've lost $1 in EV, yet they both have an equal amount of "equity" IF THEY PLAY similar games, bets and time. Most of the people probably didn't even realize what's going on. My GF played on BV and she doesn't even know yet.

I looked at some of the games they offered the "extra money" on. I believe from the information I got, it was mostly distributed on mystery jackpots that oftentimes ran up past 10k anyway, and they are VERY difficult to hit, normally resetting at 1k-2k. Even without them putting on extra money you could regularly find them at 5k-12k any day of the week. And I didn't see anything that looked juicy, I'm highly doubtful anything I looked at was even +EV. Admittedly I looked kinda late. Why did I look late you might ask? I, someone who actually played ALL of the gaffed machines never knew about the giveaway until late. Do you see the problem with that?

How Many people who played the gaffed machines don't ever return?
How many people lost so much money on the gaffed slot machines that they couldn't even afford to BUY back their lost EV if they wanted to.?
How many people never knew or had the chance(Did they send an Email to everyone?)
What if someone moved to a state where BV was banned or a felony to play online?

They were making money by attracting new players to the higher jackpots, and by keeping players playing longer who were chasing the higher jackpots. You can clearly see when the Mystery Jackpots get up to 8k the meter start flying. The was they did this was/is wrong on so many levels

Let's say some thief comes along and steals money from you and your neighbors houses. In total he gets 10k. 3k of that is yours. His wife finds out and decides to give back the money. She puts an ad in the paper(you don't even get the paper) saying, my husband robbed a neighborhood I'm randomly putting 0 to 10k in an undisclosed amount of envelopes (thousands) ANYONE can stop by my house and BUY some envelopes. She actually makes and keeps the extra money. You didn't see the ad, and even if you had seen it you were 1500 miles away and broke until next the month because he took all your money. But hey they did the right thing

Again I ask, how is it that BV and other casinos don't notice Hundreds of thousands/millions in extra profits from their slots?

Did the player who was not paid his jackpot receive it? If not isn't that a good enough reason to blacklist them?
The casino is responsible period. If we don't make the casinos responsible for their software providers gaffed machines and non payments they can simply turn a blind eye or work in cahoots and just blame the software company.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's was your advice? NO ADVICE WOULD HAVE BEEN WAY BETTER.

Care to explain this preposterous statement? In the remainder of your tirade you slam me for not doing enough, but here you scream at me in all caps that having done nothing would have been better. Which is it?

Quote: AxelWolf

You just found this thread?

Yes. I don't constantly monitor WoV, and nobody alerted me to it. What, you think it's my job to constantly monitor various fora? If so, then I'll turn it back on you: Why weren't you constantly monitoring my site back when I had multiple prominent disclaimers posted on every single page of the site? Why weren't you monitoring Casinomeister? Why weren't you monitoring CasinoListings?

Quote: AxelWolf

You should've started this thread back in MAY.

I thought there was one here about it. I thought that's how I originally found out about it. I can't find it now. I did post extensively about it on Casinomeister, tried to get the Wizard interested early on, tried to get Bryan at Casinomeister involved (both to no avail), and pushed Bovada hard. Incidentally, Bovada blew CasinoListings off repeatedly, but shortly after I inquired, Bovada quickly started removing the affected games. I can't say for sure that my involvement was what got them to finally act, but the timing certainly makes it seem that way.

And interestingly, you ream me up and down the street with your post, and then you question why I don't hang out on WoV more? I think you have your answer.

Quote: AxelWolf

Thanks for the link, I will definitely need it, because I couldn't find this info or a clear link to this information on your website. It's certainly not promptly displayed from what I can see(THAT'S NOT PUTTING YOUR CUSTOMERS BEST INTEREST AT HEART ),

Wow. First of all, you might try actually reading. As it says in two separate places in my article, before the issue was resolved I put prominent qualifiers on *all* the sidebar and footer Bovada advertising on VegasClick, and linked them all to my Betsoft page. That's three links on Every. Single. Page. I don't know any other website on the planet that's ever done something like that, certainly not WoV or Casinomeister. After Bovada pulled the Betsoft games, there was no longer any risk to my readers playing at Bovada (which is the only casino I advertise), so I removed the qualifiers. There's still a link to the Betsoft page on my Advertisers page.

Putting those qualifiers up almost certainly cost me money, but I took the unprecedented step of warning my readers about games at my advertiser precisely because I *do* always put my readers first. So when you scream at me that I don't care about my readers, all I can say, besides providing evidence showing the exact opposite, is screw off.

Let me also remind you that I was one of the only people taking the time to work on this issue. You're welcome.

Quote: AxelWolf

Only the top jackpot hit frequency on a few of their MANY slot games was tested. What's to say everything else including simple hits or bonus round frequencies wasn't gaffed as well? You know, instead of what should have been 100 spins on an average bonus round it was actually 150 spins on average?

I doubt it. It really seems like a programming error about the progressive jackpots. Your idea is *possible*, in the sense that anything's *possible*. But since some casinos report overall return of individual slots (like VideoSlots), I think if the slots were underperforming, we'd know.

Quote: AxelWolf

If a B&M had many rigged slot games (and many more were not even tested)what would your advice be? Just don't bet max on those games?

If they were rigged because of a *manufacturer* error (not a casino scam), and I thought the problem was limited to max bets on progressive slots, then yes.

Quote: AxelWolf

When many other online casinos were thought to have rigged software, or EVEN WAY LESS of a problem, the entire casino was BLACKLISTED here.

Well, take that up with the Wizard, then.

Quote: AxelWolf

The way BV distributed the rigged jackpot money was irresponsible SELF SERVING and not fair whatsoever. [long rant with multiple examples]

First of all, "rigged" implies intentionally crooked. That's exceptionally unlikely. It would have to be the stupidest scam in the world to have the progressive amounts spiraling continually higher and never won in plain view of the whole world. Reasonable conclusion is that it was a programming error.

Next, I don't know why you're trying to convince me that Bovada's resolution wasn't the best one because I said the exact same thing publicly on my Betsoft page. I said that the better way would have been to refund players' progressive contributions directly to them. (I told Bovada the same thing, before they announced they were rolling over the contributions into different games.) Maybe there was some reason they couldn't easily do that (e.g., they didn't have access to that data, or licensing regulations prohibited it, or something else), but if so they certainly didn't say.

Quote: AxelWolf

Again I ask, how is it that BV and other casinos don't notice Hundreds of thousands/millions in extra profits from their slots?

(1) Because it wasn't profit! Duh!
(2) All of the extra money was just making the jackpots grow larger, which simply looked like they hadn't hit yet. Unless you intentionally sit down and analyze the data, you'd never know there was a problem.
(3) The problem might not have affected that many other casinos. There didn't appear to be a problem at Bovada's sister casino, Slots.lv, for example.

Quote: AxelWolf

Did the player who was not paid his jackpot receive it?

He apparently settled for a smaller amount and signed an NDA so he won't/can't discuss the details.

Quote: AxelWolf

If not isn't that a good enough reason to blacklist them?

Sure, if I were in the business of blacklisting software providers. I'm not. Like most gambling sites, I don't maintain a blacklist page. I let the watchdog sites do that. I don't have nearly enough time to monitor all the problem companies, even if I cared to. It's not my focus. I advertise only one casino, and they don't even carry the affected software any more.

And now I block you.