Live Blackjack online gambling.

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November 7th, 2010 at 1:58:47 PM permalink

Quote: Malaru
Is it just me or does the sound of offering "live blackjack" on online casions just BEG for card counting?? I know some online casinos offer it and Ive seen feeds of the live dealers using shoes.

ANyone got any information about how possible this is??

You can count all you want but it won't be too effective. Most platforms deal from an 8 deck shoe with re-shuffles after around 4 decks. Unless you know a counting strategy that works with that sort of shallow penetration its a waste of time.

hope that helps

Wizard
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November 7th, 2010 at 4:40:10 PM permalink

At 5dimes they have a 6-deck shoe and penetration is at 75%. I haven't played it, but these would be ripe rules for counting, considering you could use a computer and they probably don't watch for counters.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

mkl654321

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November 7th, 2010 at 4:48:45 PM permalink

Quote: FootofGod
I would ASSUME, being in the business of making money and having the assets to do so, they have thought this through once or twice. I'm sure they will boot you for counting cards, just like anywhere else, if they catch you, which seems like it would be ridiculously easier in an online environment.

Why would they bother to boot you? They would just alter the outcomes of all your double downs. If the dealer had a hard 17, you get a 3 on your 11. For variety, you get a face card on your hard 10 double down, but the dealer makes a five-card 21. Decrease the number of blackjacks dealt to you from 1 in 21 to 1 in 23. All simple, smooth, subtle, and COMPLETELY undetectable. Our counter hero would dump his entire bankroll before he even SUSPECTED what had hit him (i.e., he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between being cheated and variance).

In fact, I think I just had a great moneymaking idea. Single deck! 3:2! Double on any two! Split and resplit! Come to mkl's virtual casino and win win win win win! (And since we're based on Sand Crab Island, where the only law is that administered by The Big Mango, it's not like if you figured out that I'm cheating you, you'd be able to do anything about it.)

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw

Wizard
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November 7th, 2010 at 6:32:13 PM permalink

I decided to play a little live blackjack at 5dimes in the interests of researching this topic. Here are the full rules:

6 decks.
Cut card placed that the 75% point.
One burn card at the beginning of the shoe, and one with every dealer change, which occur every 30 minutes.
Dealer stands on soft 17.
Double after split allowed.
Surrender allowed (I assume late).
Resplitting aces not allowed.
No hole card, but player loses original bet only to dealer blackjack.
Bet ranges: $5-$250, $10-$250, or $25-$500

I bit off topic, but the other players were extremly rude, to each other, the dealer, and the supervisor. Here is an exchange after I doubled a soft 18 against a 5. I (karmanghia) won and TC347 lost.

TC347: yes faggot
TC347: 10 plz
TC347: 10 plz
karmanghia: You guys should be gentlemen then.
TC347: :(
TC347: gonnerhia
TC347: plz leave
TC347: who doubles on an 18
TC347: u fucking cocksucker
TC347: u took her 10 and she didn't bust
TC347: you dumb mother fucker
karmanghia: As long as I win.
** bonada has left the chat **
TC347: leave cocksucker
TC347: fag
TC347: fucking retard
TC347: leave u dumb bitch
TC347: $5 faggot ass bet

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

shortow

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November 7th, 2010 at 6:37:20 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
At 5dimes they have a 6-deck shoe and penetration is at 75%. I haven't played it, but these would be ripe rules for counting, considering you could use a computer and they probably don't watch for counters.

I'd be very surprised if actual insertion was 75% in. They do say approximately and I would bet that in practice it's extremely approximate...like closer to 50%.

I'll record a deal and see where the cut card come out...stay tuned

mkl654321

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November 7th, 2010 at 6:38:16 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
I decided to play a little live blackjack at 5dimes in the interests of researching this topic. Here are the full rules:
TC347: leave cocksucker
TC347: fag
TC347: fucking retard
TC347: leave u dumb bitch
TC347: $5 faggot ass bet

Was JerryLogan one of the players, perchance?

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw

Wizard
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November 7th, 2010 at 6:47:17 PM permalink

Quote: shortow
I'd be very surprised if actual insertion was 75% in. They do say approximately and I would bet that in practice it's extremely approximate...like closer to 50%.

I'll record a deal and see where the cut card come out...stay tuned

I shall stay tuned. However, I sat through two or three shuffles, and it looked like about 75% to me. I suppose one could actually count the number of cards, but these games go very slowly.

Quote: mkl654321
Was JerryLogan one of the players, perchance?

I don't think so. Jerry at least has a better vocabulary.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

teddys

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November 7th, 2010 at 7:48:48 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
*expletive conversation*

Sounds like my local casino!

"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4

shortow

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November 7th, 2010 at 9:13:06 PM permalink

OK so here's a couple of recordings showing the last deal and then insertion for the new deal.

youtube.com/watch?v=kfkpj4ksLbM
youtube.com/watch?v=5ExWMoStmHk

Best gauge is probably comparing the shoe stacks sitting right of the dealer...full (blue) v just dealt (red) rather than the insertion for the next deal which is a bit hard to see.

Looks to me closer to 66% than 75% - but definitely well into the back half of the shoe which is interesting.

anyway see what you think

Wizard
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November 7th, 2010 at 9:36:31 PM permalink

Did you just make those? If so, great work, thank you.

I'd say it looked around 60%. I think the best way to tell is comparing the discard pile to the full stack next to it.

Somebody should give the blonde dealer in the second video a hair dryer.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

shortow

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November 7th, 2010 at 10:30:14 PM permalink

what, you don't like the wet look?

and yes, had a poke around 5dimes and did those recordings. Was very surprised when you posted their stated insertion policy and interested to see how well they stick to it....not that 2 deals is a great sample.

Wizard
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November 7th, 2010 at 10:57:40 PM permalink

Okay, I just went back and counted cards with my clicker through a whole shoe. I counted 212 before the shuffle, for a 68% penetration. There was one burn card, so 211 cards seen.

I had the same wet hair dealer (Maria) you had, by the way. Her hair was probably just oily, making it look wet.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

lucky13

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November 11th, 2010 at 11:41:18 AM permalink

In the videos posted I didn't see any shuffling, just switching between the blue and red decks. Did they shuffle at all? If not, this could be ripe for card tracking as well as counting. Interesting. Has anyone played here for real money? Any reputation?

Wizard
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November 11th, 2010 at 11:45:30 AM permalink

I went back, by the way, and counted another deck. Again 211 cards seen. Had a very lovely dealer.

After swapping the decks in the shoe, the dealer will shuffle the cards just dealt.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

lucky13

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November 11th, 2010 at 1:19:19 PM permalink

My concern would be if they would "hold" your money if you were considered a counter at these online live sites.

It is one thing to be backed off, take your chips to the cashier, and leave a casino. I'd be fearful that they could ban you from playing, and keep your deposit.

The 20x spread (25-500) is very nice though. If you could play multiple hands it would be even better?

Wizard
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:36:52 PM permalink

I don't think they would. From what I read on other forums, 5dimes is a decent place.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

shortow

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November 11th, 2010 at 5:21:12 PM permalink

Both 5dimes and Global Gaming Labs who run their live deal platform are Costa Rican based which as most would know is the online gambling equivalent of the Wild Wild West. You don't have a lot of recourse in the event of a dispute.

I do think however that any operator in this niche (live dealers) who is open to US players stands a lot more to gain from building a good reputation and servicing players well. In the long run they're getting a house edge so it becomes a volume game and cheating players will lead to a quick death.

Having said that, i'd be far more comfortable with 10k sitting in a Ladbrokes account than 5dimes!

dm

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November 12th, 2010 at 9:45:50 AM permalink

Quote: mkl654321
Why would they bother to boot you? They would just alter the outcomes of all your double downs. If the dealer had a hard 17, you get a 3 on your 11. For variety, you get a face card on your hard 10 double down, but the dealer makes a five-card 21. Decrease the number of blackjacks dealt to you from 1 in 21 to 1 in 23. All simple, smooth, subtle, and COMPLETELY undetectable. Our counter hero would dump his entire bankroll before he even SUSPECTED what had hit him (i.e., he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between being cheated and variance).

In fact, I think I just had a great moneymaking idea. Single deck! 3:2! Double on any two! Split and resplit! Come to mkl's virtual casino and win win win win win! (And since we're based on Sand Crab Island, where the only law is that administered by The Big Mango, it's not like if you figured out that I'm cheating you, you'd be able to do anything about it.)

This post is BRILLIANT! I take back any former shots I have taken at you. In truth, I'm jealous that I didn't write it.

Wizard
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November 12th, 2010 at 12:22:09 PM permalink

Quote: dm
This post is BRILLIANT! I take back any former shots I have taken at you. In truth, I'm jealous that I didn't write it.

MKL has had a lot of outstanding posts, but that was not one of them. I'm not sure he realized the thread is about LIVE online blackjack. The cards are dealt from a shoe and are about the size of a DVD case. It would be pretty card to cheat in such a game. Even if they tried, the players could easily record it and play it back for signs of cheating. Any slip up in an attempt to cheat and it would be all over YouTube.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

mkl654321

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November 12th, 2010 at 2:01:50 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
MKL has had a lot of outstanding posts, but that was not one of them. I'm not sure he realized the thread is about LIVE online blackjack. The cards are dealt from a shoe and are about the size of a DVD case. It would be pretty card to cheat in such a game. Even if they tried, the players could easily record it and play it back for signs of cheating. Any slip up in an attempt to cheat and it would be all over YouTube.

I probably WAS confused, as "live online gambling" seems like an utter oxymoron to me. How the heck would that work?

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw

Wizard
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November 12th, 2010 at 2:29:34 PM permalink

Quote: mkl654321
How the heck would that work?

Somebody posted a couple videos of dealers shuffling earlier. You just click a table, then click your bets, and the dealer knows to deal you cards. The video is live, so you can see what is going on. The cards are also scanned as they are played, so your bets are automatically scored. The dealer can read what you type in a chat window, and you can hear what she says, but the quality of the audio is not good, so it can be hard having a conversation.

With the huge cards and a lag between you clicking what to do, and the dealer seeing it, the pace of the game is very slow. However, I kind of like it. Most of the dealers are quite pretty.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

rJz

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November 15th, 2010 at 8:41:45 AM permalink

I use 5dimes sports book so I decided to check out the live BJ over the weekend. Interesting concept, but I saw something that looke d a little odd. The dealer dealt the players first card, her down card, then the players second card. The players then played their hands. Then the dealer proceed to play hers. She didn't take her second card until after all the player hands had been played. I noticed this at all three tables i checked out. I'm not sure if this in anyway effects the outcome of the game, but it just seemed odd to me.

dm

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November 15th, 2010 at 9:06:27 AM permalink

If they removed 1 ace from the deck how would you know?

mkl654321

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November 15th, 2010 at 9:16:16 AM permalink

Quote: rJz
I use 5dimes sports book so I decided to check out the live BJ over the weekend. Interesting concept, but I saw something that looke d a little odd. The dealer dealt the players first card, her down card, then the players second card. The players then played their hands. Then the dealer proceed to play hers. She didn't take her second card until after all the player hands had been played. I noticed this at all three tables i checked out. I'm not sure if this in anyway effects the outcome of the game, but it just seemed odd to me.

That's the way they deal BJ at many places in Europe. Supposedly it keeps the dealer from accidentally exposing his hole card before the players play out their hands. It's an innocuous rule if, when the player doubles or splits against what turns out to be a blackjack, he only loses his original bet. It's an evil rule (akin to cheating IMHO) if ALL bets, even double downs and splits, are lost if the dealer turns out to get a blackjack. That also forces the player to be EXTREMELY conservative against an Ace or ten showing.

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw

Wizard
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November 15th, 2010 at 9:45:36 AM permalink

Quote: dm
If they removed 1 ace from the deck how would you know?

It would take a long time, but a player could track the frequency of each card seen. With a large enough sample size, a strong case could be made for the missing ace. Also, they replace the cards every 12 hours, and the dealer fans then out just like in a regular casino.

Regarding the hole card rule, the player only loses his original bet against a dealer blackjack. So the odds are the same as with the same rules in a hole card game.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Jufo81

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November 17th, 2010 at 10:11:51 AM permalink

As for the real-time Blackjack card counting software, there is this free app which seems to work pretty well:

http://www.bewersdorff-online.de/black-jack/

It tracks the house edge and also informs possible deviations from basic strategy as well.

I had a go with it at a widely used Live blackjack software. The rules are unfavourable though: 8 decks, cut card at 50% penetration, no DAS, split once, peek on ace, no peek on ten, no burn cards. After several hours of observing tables was able to locate 1% player edge and hit a 1000� bet on the table, but unfortunately I lost. I don't think that 1% edge is enough to compensate for the large variance of losing a large bet so IMO it is not worth it with these rules. 5Dimes BJ looks very promising though.

MATT1983

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November 24th, 2010 at 12:43:27 AM permalink

Here are a couple conversations I had with the casino. The first is with 5dimes, the 2nd was at the live table.

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Daniel'
Daniel: Hello. How may I assist you today?
Matt: Hello, I was wondering about the live blackjack
Matt: Do you have any policies about counting cards?
Daniel: About counting cards on the Live Dealer Blackjak?
Matt: yes
Daniel: *Blackjack
Matt: do you consider it cheating?
Daniel: Allow me to check about that....
Daniel: Just a moment please
Daniel: Well, we actually do not have, but since the Live Dealer Casino is a third party, with independent rules and policies, they might have policies about counting cards.
Daniel: You can access to a chat window with the Live Dealer directly, once you are signed in to the Live Dealer Casino
Matt: Do I need to create an account for that?
Daniel: Yes
Matt: ok thank you
Daniel: You're welcome
Daniel: ...and contact us back at any time..
Daniel: ..either for depositing information, or further concerns

Matt8: Hello
Matt8: Do you have a policy about card counting?
Casino Supervisor: Hello Matt8! what do you mean?
** David512 has joined the chat **
Matt8: Do you consider it cheating? keeping track of which cards have been played?
** David512 has left the chat **
** David512 has joined the chat **
Casino Supervisor: We dont have track of cards been played
** David512 has left the chat **
Matt8: So players can keep track if they want?
Casino Supervisor: if you want to Sir...
Matt8: Ok thank you!
Casino Supervisor: good memories better..

It looks like they haven't had a problem with card counting yet and haven't addressed it. It looks like you could get away with it. I am really tempted but ultimately decided to pass on it. I think the 1%-2% advantage of counting is probably smaller then the chance of them keeping your money if you win.

MathExtremist

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November 24th, 2010 at 11:35:07 AM permalink

Quote: mkl654321
I probably WAS confused, as "live online gambling" seems like an utter oxymoron to me. How the heck would that work?

At the G2E show last week there were several gaming machine vendors offering remote terminal betting on shared, televised events (like dice rolls or roulette spins). The random event is shared across all the bettors regardless of which terminal you're playing. You may have seen ShuffleMaster's Rapid Roulette already. See:

http://www.f2.co.kr/products/winningstar_live.php
http://www.interblock.eu/products/G4/live/
http://www.shufflemaster.com/02_eu_products/entertainment_products/electronic_table_games/rapid_roulette.asp

Going from live gambling with a casino terminal to live gambling with an internet terminal (e.g. your computer) is just a matter of network distance and protocols. The technology is basically the same.

"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

weaselman

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November 24th, 2010 at 7:48:37 PM permalink

Quote:
It would take a long time, but a player could track the frequency of each card seen. With a large enough sample size, a strong case could be made for the missing ace.

Assuming a 60% penetration, and a six-deck shoe, the probability of a particular ace happening to be behind the cut card is about 95%. (1-0.6^6).
If you play 100 shoes and are sure that you have never seen 6 aces of clubs in any of them, there is still about 1% chance of that happening. You'll need about another hundred decks to get outside of the 3 sigma (which is still no solid proof of cheating, just a strong suspicion). How long will it take to play 200 shoes? With 4 players at the table, it's about 2000 hands. You said, the game is going slowly, so, let's say 3 minutes per hand - it's 100 hours of play.

And even then, there could be a different ace missing every time (see below about fanning out/changing decks), in which case, the numbers become much higher (one or more aces behind cut card is 99.9995%)

Or did you have a different method of tracking aces in mind?

Quote: Wizard
Also, they replace the cards every 12 hours, and the dealer fans then out just like in a regular casino.

But how can you be sure that the deck that was just fanned out is the same one you are playing with? I mean, people make buildings disappear right before your eyes on TV, I would think cheating at blackjack gotta be easier than that.

I am not saying they necessarily are cheating, just that, if they are, it doesn't seem very easy to catch them. I think, there is some psychological moment, that makes people tend to believe what they see with their own eyes, and that makes television particularly deceptive.

"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"

irbylamer

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November 25th, 2010 at 4:27:39 AM permalink

Playing live online blackjack is a little different than a live land based casino game. In live land based blackjack game if you count cards then the casino people can possibly catch you as you are visible to them. But in live online blackjack game they cant catch you. So they use more deck I the game so that card counting becomes difficult for the counters.

Wizard
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November 25th, 2010 at 5:26:21 AM permalink

Quote: weaselman
But how can you be sure that the deck that was just fanned out is the same one you are playing with? I mean, people make buildings disappear right before your eyes on TV, I would think cheating at blackjack gotta be easier than that.

I would file that under anything being possible. No casino game is 100% safe from cheating.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

weaselman

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November 25th, 2010 at 7:45:34 AM permalink

Quote: Wizard
I would file that under anything being possible. No casino game is 100% safe from cheating.

I was just saying that adding a video feed to online blackjack does not seem to me to make the game more believable. As far as I can see, this game seems to be as likely (or unlikely) to be rigged as any other online game, video or not.

"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"

Wizard
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November 25th, 2010 at 7:53:49 AM permalink

Quote: weaselman
I was just saying that adding a video feed to online blackjack does not seem to me to make the game more believable. As far as I can see, this game seems to be as likely (or unlikely) to be rigged as any other online game, video or not.

I have a different opinion.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

weaselman

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November 25th, 2010 at 7:58:07 AM permalink

Quote: Wizard
I have a different opinion.

That is ok :)
I do think, that the main point of message boards is discussing different opinions, not merely stating them, but I can understand if you are not up to it right now.

"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"

SOOPOO

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November 25th, 2010 at 8:51:44 AM permalink

I fall somewhere between the Wiz and weasel. If the online casino is making enough money with enough repeat customers without cheating, then they probably will not risk the steady flow of income to cheat for a short term higher take. That being said, I do not think it would be too difficult for an on line casino to remove a card or 2 to alter the odds slightly more in their favor. The risk of a disgruntled employee turning them in likely outweighs the benefit, though. And by turning them in, I just mean making a public accusation, not needing to meet the standard of a criminal conviction.

mkl654321

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November 25th, 2010 at 10:21:59 AM permalink

Quote: SOOPOO
I fall somewhere between the Wiz and weasel. If the online casino is making enough money with enough repeat customers without cheating, then they probably will not risk the steady flow of income to cheat for a short term higher take. That being said, I do not think it would be too difficult for an on line casino to remove a card or 2 to alter the odds slightly more in their favor. The risk of a disgruntled employee turning them in likely outweighs the benefit, though. And by turning them in, I just mean making a public accusation, not needing to meet the standard of a criminal conviction.

I personally would NEVER send a dime to such a site, but I understand that many people would. And I definitely think the chances of it being an honest game are in your favor--perhaps as high as 65%! Of course, the site could cheat you without your having any idea it was happening, but as the Wiz points out, so could a real casino. We just have to trust in the moral integrity of someone we've never met, seen, or talked to, whose location is unknown. But we do that on EBay all the time.

I don't think there's any risk of the "disgruntled employee", to this site or to any real casino. After all, consider what connotations the phrase itself has: "guy who got fired who has a beef with his former employer". Because of the asymmetrical employer-employee relationship, employers--particularly large ones--have planted in the public's mind the perception that anyone who quit, or was fired, was just a misfit and a malcontent who, due to his drug, alcohol, or sex-with-farm-animals problem, foolishly left the bosom of his wise and benevolent employer, and his protestations and "whistle-blowing" after the fact are just bitter sour-grapes polemics.

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw

Wizard
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November 25th, 2010 at 1:16:57 PM permalink

Quote: weaselman
I do think, that the main point of message boards is discussing different opinions, not merely stating them, but I can understand if you are not up to it right now.

As I stated in another thread, cheating would be very difficult in a live game beause:

1. There is a continuous live feed.
2. The dealers fan out the cards when they change decks and verify every card, for the players to see as well.
3. The cards are about 5" x 8." Any slight of hand would be difficult to pull off.
4. It would be easy to record any cheating, post it on YouTube, and damage the reputation of the casino.

Meanwhile, in a digital game it would just take the will and some changes to the program to cheat. I personally proven cheating/programming errors in online blackjack several times. The number of times I've heard of cheating in a live online game is zero.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

thecesspit

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November 25th, 2010 at 2:36:13 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard

4. It would be easy to record any cheating, post it on YouTube, and damage the reputation of the casino.

After the UB/Absolute fiasco, I have little faith that reputations can be shattered enough.

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

shortow