BitCoin

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November 25th, 2022 at 9:16:53 AM permalink

Quote: Mission146
Quote: darkoz

Magic the gathering is not what I would consider a collectible either although it's certainly has some sisterhood to it.

The value of magic the gathering is that they had tournaments and that the "collectibles" imbued powers for the owner such that during the tournament your collection, knowledge of its usage and combination of power could determine whether you win or lose.

The intrinsic value in magic the gathering therefore is akin to say tennis or basketball.

To claim basketball items are nothing but collectibles because they have no intrinsic value off the playing field is ridiculous.

Same with magic the gathering.

EDIT: BTW if you are interested in a good book about magic the gathering I suggest "Jonny Magic and the Card Shark Kids". After becoming top champion at Magic the card shark kids attacked card counting at blackjack.

The winning combinations and keeping track of the cards at Magic is so complex that they found card counting to be something for kindergarteners.
link to original post

(Quote clipped to remove quote in quote)

All I can say is that you can expect to be surprised! I hope you will enjoy the article!

The most stable form of "collecting", at least as a long-term investment, seems to actually be sealed box sets. While many people collect and have individual cards graded, early research would indicate that buying boxes of cards and then opening and storing them is generally not profitable. If you had done that right off the bat before Magic the Gathering actually popped as a game, and held those individual cards, then they can be worth a ton of money now, but most people (obviously) did not think to do that at the time.

Anyway, I have no idea what the rest of your post is saying. It seems that you are objecting to something I said, or some perception of what you think the article is going to be, but I'm not sure what your objection is.

Magic the Gathering is known as a CCG (Collectible Card Game) or TCG (Trading Card Game), but the most consistent way to invest in Magic appears to be in sealed product. Because it is sealed, you don't even know what cards are in those boxes...other than they are part of some set of cards, but you don't know the individual cards.

I don't know what the ratio of players to collectors is, and I strongly suspect many collectors are also players, but the article is mostly going to focus on Magic the Gathering sealed boxes as a viable long-term investment.
link to original post

Ah I see.

But I think the fact you are talking about sealed packs makes all the difference.

The entire reason sealed packs have so much long-term value is because most purchases are for players to open and use in tournaments. Hence the value of the cards is for gaming.

The value of unopened boxes is for collecting due to their scarcity.

That's not dissimilar to comics which unopened and sealed are worth more than ones that are read.

Or even cars which value goes down as soon as you drive off the lot. Are cars collectibles? Of course they can be but that isn't what people generally consider cars as because their value is elsewhere.

EDIT: And if I came across too strong I apologise. That wasn't my intent. You always post interesting articles.

For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

rxwine

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November 25th, 2022 at 9:19:31 AM permalink

As a reminder, even getting a prediction right doesn�t necessarily mean anything as far as predicting power. You either have to show repeated consistency. Or be able to show a method to generally arrive at more correct answers.

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Mission146

Mission146

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November 25th, 2022 at 9:20:00 AM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster
__________________

one last post on this subject and then I'm going to shut up for a long time

the current market cap of BTC as I'm watching right now is:

three hundred and 16 billion, six hundred and eighty eight million, six hundred and eighty seven thousand, and seven hundred and three dollars

which is really not all that much when you consider that Elon Musk's net worth is about $191 billion

.
link to original post

Why would you shut up for a long time?

I don't know if it is that much or not that much. I think it's, "That much," since BTC has a fundamental value of nothing and Musk owns things or has holdings in things with fundamental values of more than nothing.

Besides, one of the notions of BTC is that it is created to be finite, so mining new BTC becomes more and more difficult relative to the BTC that has already been mined. The fact that it's finite and more cannot be created once it has all been mined was supposed to be one of the draws to it as well as a long-term stabilizing force, even though it would still be fundamentally worthless. Besides, you have Doggycoin, EtherealCoin, ConfidenceGame.Coinv2.1 and whatever the heck the other ones are called, so since new coins can just come out anytime someone feels like trying to make a new coin, the finiteness of BTC...which shares the same fundamental value of nothing that these other coins (presumably) have...doesn't make Shytecoin, in general, a finite resource.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

GenoDRPh

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November 25th, 2022 at 1:51:45 PM permalink

Question for those of you who use BTC for the reasons Axel and The Wizard use it: Do you buy BTC and hold it and use it over time, accepting and increase or decrease in value as time marches on, or do you buy it each time you need it, and sell it when you stop needing it each time?

Gene

billryan

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November 25th, 2022 at 3:00:47 PM permalink

Grayscale is a huge financial firm with about 3 billion dollars in assets. Or does it? They claim to own hundreds of thousands of bitcoins, worth billions, yet they refuse to show any proof of ownership. Coinbase vouches for them, but who vouches for Coinbase? SBF does or did.
I suspect we are about to find out a whole lot of people there are over-leveraged and it isn't just the emperor who is wearing new clothes.

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

ChumpChange

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November 25th, 2022 at 3:17:58 PM permalink

Many large bitcoin platforms are at severe risk of going bust very soon. They have already banned transactions just days before declaring bankruptcy. I don't watch CNBC to watch the parade of top bitcoin platform executives saying everything is fine on Wednesday only to be proved wrong by Saturday.

RT: Coinbase: �We�re fine�
Also, Coinbase: Our bonds are trading at 53 cents on the dollar. A level signaling distress.

AxelWolf

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November 25th, 2022 at 3:45:43 PM permalink

Quote: GenoDRPh
Question for those of you who use BTC for the reasons Axel and The Wizard use it: Do you buy BTC and hold it and use it over time, accepting and increase or decrease in value as time marches on, or do you buy it each time you need it, and sell it when you stop needing it each time?

Gene
link to original post

As I already said, I have sold off a significant amount thus far, but nowadays, I just hold onto it if I play at an online casino and make money I just cash it out into my bitcoin wallet where it remains. I have more bitcoin than I need to use at online casinos my deposits are rarely more than 1k at a time. There are a few sportsbooks I trust that I occasionally will deposit up to 3k

"do you buy it each time you need it, and sell it when you stop needing it each time?"

When you're on an exchange you are not really buying and selling it(technically you are I guess) you can just trade it back and forth between your cash balance and BTC to avoid any fluctuation. Again, I don't do that, but I could.

Assuming one trusts Coinbase, I suggest everyone at least have one just in case. It's basically the same as having a PayPal account where you can earn free crypto for a few minutes of your time. You don't have to buy or be invested in crypto to have an account with money in it.

The Wizard can answer for himself, but I believe he sells his BTC as he hasn't any faith in it.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

DRich

DRich

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November 25th, 2022 at 4:10:35 PM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Bitcoin itself seems more like a wager than an investment.

^^^This^^^

At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.

AxelWolf

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November 25th, 2022 at 5:43:07 PM permalink

Quote: DRich
Quote: rxwine
Bitcoin itself seems more like a wager than an investment.

^^^This^^^
link to original post

Aren't most investments a gamble/wager? Some are far less risky than others but less risk oftentimes equals less potential reward.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you can show me the +EV math, all investments are just gambling. Since no one can predict the future, even things that have past data showing decades of positive returns can suddenly crash.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

rxwine

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November 25th, 2022 at 6:46:58 PM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: DRich
Quote: rxwine
Bitcoin itself seems more like a wager than an investment.

^^^This^^^
link to original post
Aren't most investments a gamble/wager? Some are far less risky than others but less risk oftentimes equals less potential reward.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you can show me the +EV math, all investments are just gambling. Since no one can predict the future, even things that have past data showing decades of positive returns can suddenly crash.
link to original post

I'll asses the risk if I can ever find a cost for personal crypto insurance from long term well-established insurance companies. Every time I look up cost I get some price for a business. Not even sure if any of that is still accurate with recent failures. Or how much of assets it covers. What does it cost for 10k of crypto or 100k of crypto for theft in a personal account.

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EvenBob

EvenBob

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November 25th, 2022 at 8:00:54 PM permalink

'There are now more than 12,000 cryptocurrencies, and what's truly astonishing is the growth rate. The number of cryptocurrencies more than doubled from 2021 to 2022. At the end of 2021, the market was adding about 1,000 new cryptocurrencies every month,' The Motley Fool

Why does this not seem to bother anybody. This shows you what a joke crypto is, 1000 new cryptos a month? It's a scheme, it's a con, it's a scam, but because Bitcoin was the first one people overlook that it's a scam and a con. First and foremost it's not a currency because the hallmark of every currency is stability. No crypto is stable, it only exists to go up in value and make money for people who bought low and hope to sell high. By definition that is not a currency. It's a collectible, it's a commodity, it's an investment. 1000 new cryptos a month, let that sink in.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

JuliePA

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November 25th, 2022 at 8:40:57 PM permalink

But give credit where it is due. Just the name BIT COIN. Digital versus metal coin. And the people running the computer, why call them MINERS as in silver miners, gold miners, etc. And store the mathematical nonsense in WALLETS, like you put your paper money in. And as far as pump and dumb, call any crash a crypto WINTER. Surely to be followed by spring and a summer of wealth for the true believers. Oh, and the ones who sell at a loss, call them crypto TOURISTS. And boast about the speed of transfers. All I know is at Starbucks my latte is paid for before I can put my credit card back in my purse. And my what wonderful security with digital coins. Except for the millions or billions stolen from exchanges by hackers. But rest assured your bitcoins are perfectly safe. Of course they are.
As for those who got in on the con early, of course they profited. Just like anyone who is in on a ponzi at the beginning. 40 years of consistent returns from Bernie for example.

AZDuffman

AZDuffman

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November 26th, 2022 at 3:10:48 AM permalink

Quote: EvenBob
'There are now more than 12,000 cryptocurrencies, and what's truly astonishing is the growth rate. The number of cryptocurrencies more than doubled from 2021 to 2022. At the end of 2021, the market was adding about 1,000 new cryptocurrencies every month,' The Motley Fool

Why does this not seem to bother anybody. This shows you what a joke crypto is, 1000 new cryptos a month? It's a scheme, it's a con, it's a scam, but because Bitcoin was the first one people overlook that it's a scam and a con. First and foremost it's not a currency because the hallmark of every currency is stability. No crypto is stable, it only exists to go up in value and make money for people who bought low and hope to sell high. By definition that is not a currency. It's a collectible, it's a commodity, it's an investment. 1000 new cryptos a month, let that sink in.
link to original post

The USA auto industry lost somewhere around 95% of its companies between 1910 and 1920. They came and went. It was a new thing finding its way. The survivors did well.

All but about 10 cryptos, excluding stablecoins, will probably collapse. Utility is slowly hitting. Right now it is fringes taking it as payment. More and more will over time. It would make great sense for eBay to endorse one to use, saving many fees. What could Amazon save? Larger scale, imagine what you could save in international trade.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

darkoz

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November 26th, 2022 at 4:00:55 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: EvenBob
'There are now more than 12,000 cryptocurrencies, and what's truly astonishing is the growth rate. The number of cryptocurrencies more than doubled from 2021 to 2022. At the end of 2021, the market was adding about 1,000 new cryptocurrencies every month,' The Motley Fool

Why does this not seem to bother anybody. This shows you what a joke crypto is, 1000 new cryptos a month? It's a scheme, it's a con, it's a scam, but because Bitcoin was the first one people overlook that it's a scam and a con. First and foremost it's not a currency because the hallmark of every currency is stability. No crypto is stable, it only exists to go up in value and make money for people who bought low and hope to sell high. By definition that is not a currency. It's a collectible, it's a commodity, it's an investment. 1000 new cryptos a month, let that sink in.
link to original post

The USA auto industry lost somewhere around 95% of its companies between 1910 and 1920. They came and went. It was a new thing finding its way. The survivors did well.

All but about 10 cryptos, excluding stablecoins, will probably collapse. Utility is slowly hitting. Right now it is fringes taking it as payment. More and more will over time. It would make great sense for eBay to endorse one to use, saving many fees. What could Amazon save? Larger scale, imagine what you could save in international trade.
link to original post

The same is true for video sharing websites. After the initial success of YouTube dozens of similar sites were launched. Most died a quick death.

YouTube established itself as king of video sharing websites. They didn't even monetize their website for a number of years such that people asked what value the company even had.

Google found a way to make it have a financial value.

For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

billryan

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November 26th, 2022 at 4:03:27 AM permalink

Okay, I'll bite. What can I save by using bitcoin for all my international trade? I've gathered up my international bills from last year- I spend $2700 on stuff from Russia., about the same from a shop on Ukraine that is still shipping despite the alleged war, and $237 from Ireland. . Altogether, a bit over $6,000. I'd imagine the average American does much less overseas but please tell me how bitcoin would save me money.
Let us pretend my business grows to the point where I'm importing $200,000 a year. What will bitcoin do for me, if it happens to be one of the 3% of CC that you think will survive?

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

EvenBob

EvenBob

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November 26th, 2022 at 8:30:43 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman

All but about 10 cryptos, excluding stablecoins, will probably collapse. ]

Remember way back when the euro got started and what a big deal it was. That was a real currency, not a fake pretend currency like crypto. Remember when the euro dominated it was worth so much more than the US dollar. Where is it now. Some days it's worth less than the US dollar, some days worth a penny or two more. Everybody said it was going to be the savior of world currency. And it was backed by actual tangible assets, unlike crypto. How many crypto's will collapse? Eventually all of them, they were doomed from the start. Crypto is no different then the hucksters who created fake gold mine claim deeds in the 1850s and sold them to the unending stream of suckers that made it to California for the gold rush. That stream of suckers eventually ended just like the stream of suckers buying crypto will eventually end and the so-called currency will collapse. The fallout from FTX hasn't even hit yet and when it does it's going to have a devastating effect on the future of all crypto.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

AxelWolf

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Thanked by

November 26th, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM permalink

Quote: EvenBob
How many crypto's will collapse? Eventually all of them,
link to original post

That statement is meaningless. Eventually, everything will fail. Some things sooner rather than later. Wasn't you're roulette SYSTEM a failure when actually put to the test?

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

rainman

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November 26th, 2022 at 6:19:37 PM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: EvenBob
How many crypto's will collapse? Eventually all of them,
link to original post
That statement is meaningless. Eventually, everything will fail. Some things sooner rather than later. Wasn't you're roulette SYSTEM a failure when actually put to the test?
link to original post

Right between the pockets!

darkoz

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November 26th, 2022 at 6:38:20 PM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: EvenBob
How many crypto's will collapse? Eventually all of them,
link to original post
That statement is meaningless. Eventually, everything will fail. Some things sooner rather than later. Wasn't you're roulette SYSTEM a failure when actually put to the test?
link to original post

EB acts like the US dollar has done nothing but rise in value lol.

Working hard for a $100 bill in 1970 or even just from 2000 and that bill would be considered a bad investment. It literally buys less today than it ever did.

But hey EB is a master at Roulette as well so not much to say.

For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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November 26th, 2022 at 6:49:29 PM permalink

Quote: darkoz
Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: EvenBob
How many crypto's will collapse? Eventually all of them,
link to original post
That statement is meaningless. Eventually, everything will fail. Some things sooner rather than later. Wasn't you're roulette SYSTEM a failure when actually put to the test?
link to original post

EB acts like the US dollar has done nothing but rise in value lol.

Working hard for a $100 bill in 1970 or even just from 2000 and that bill would be considered a bad investment. It literally buys less today than it ever did.

But hey EB is a master at Roulette as well so not much to say.
link to original post

That�s if you keep your US dollars under your mattress. You could keep even, heck now even keep ahead, with T bills or I bonds.

But your concept is valid. When I entered the workforce a six figure income made you rich. Now it makes you ok.

Another thread has the $7 water, $15 breakfast sandwich, etc�..

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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November 26th, 2022 at 6:52:22 PM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: EvenBob
How many crypto's will collapse? Eventually all of them,
link to original post
That statement is meaningless. Eventually, everything will fail. Some things sooner rather than later. Wasn't you're roulette SYSTEM a failure when actually put to the test?
link to original post

How do you know this? Isn�t it possible it was a total success, and Mike is using it now at multiple casinos making millions? And EvenBob is just too modest to brag about it?

billryan

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November 26th, 2022 at 6:57:37 PM permalink

We have one guy who thinks 99.5% of cryptocurrencies will fail, but also that the one he bought into will go to $250,000 shortly, and another who compares bitcoins all in value to that of the dollars.
Who said comedy was dead?

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

AxelWolf

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November 26th, 2022 at 7:19:58 PM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: DRich
Quote: rxwine
Bitcoin itself seems more like a wager than an investment.

^^^This^^^
link to original post
Aren't most investments a gamble/wager? Some are far less risky than others but less risk oftentimes equals less potential reward.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you can show me the +EV math, all investments are just gambling. Since no one can predict the future, even things that have past data showing decades of positive returns can suddenly crash.
link to original post

I'll asses the risk if I can ever find a cost for personal crypto insurance from long term well-established insurance companies. Every time I look up cost I get some price for a business. Not even sure if any of that is still accurate with recent failures. Or how much of assets it covers. What does it cost for 10k of crypto or 100k of crypto for theft in a personal account.
link to original post

The #1 form of insuring your BTC.... Don't keep it on an exchange, the exchanges are the problem, not Bitcoin. When done correctly, it would be extremely hard for anyone to get your BTC.

I actually think there are a few exchanges like Coincover that do various insurance. Coinbase has some insurance if the site is hacked, but not if your personal account is hacked. I don't know enough about all that. Obviously, insured crypto isn't the norm. The entire point of BTC is the antithesis of government and big institution interference/involvement.

If we are to believe Satoshi Nakamoto was the person behind BTC, it wasn't some attempt at a Ponzi scheme or about getting rich, It was simply a way to create an internet currency. "Simply put, he created it to take financial control back from financial elites, giving ordinary people a chance to take part in a decentralized financial system." https://cointelegraph.com/bitcoin-for-beginners/who-is-satoshi-nakamoto-the-creator-of-bitcoin

I highly doubt he or anyone initially thought it would grow into something this big.

Last edited by: AxelWolf on Nov 26, 2022

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

Ace2

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November 26th, 2022 at 8:46:08 PM permalink

Quote: darkoz

EB acts like the US dollar has done nothing but rise in value lol.

Working hard for a $100 bill in 1970 or even just from 2000 and that bill would be considered a bad investment. It literally buys less today than it ever did.

But hey EB is a master at Roulette as well so not much to say.
link to original post

Moderate inflation, like 2%, is a normal part of healthy economic growth. 2% over fifty years reduces the value of a dollar by ~ 1 - 1/e =~ 63%. If you were paid in loaves of bread then you should be earning a few more loaves each year because you�re getting more productive. Consequently, the purchasing power of one loaf decreases a little each year.

Paradoxically, the only thing worse than high inflation is deflation. Deflation, or monetary value increase, is usually paired with a collapsing economy

It�s all about making that GTA

ChumpChange

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November 26th, 2022 at 11:20:58 PM permalink

Central Banks to MASSIVELY Buy Bitcoin | Binance Collapse. - Meet Kevin - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR_nLOyWiXo

BREAKING: Black Friday was *BAD* | Massive Deflation Coming. - Meet Kevin - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaYpKm7ez04

Last edited by: ChumpChange on Nov 26, 2022

darkoz

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November 27th, 2022 at 1:42:35 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
We have one guy who thinks 99.5% of cryptocurrencies will fail, but also that the one he bought into will go to $250,000 shortly, and another who compares bitcoins all in value to that of the dollars.
Who said comedy was dead?
link to original post

The comedy is that if you kept one dollar from 2009 in your draw and kept one Bitcoin which you purchased in 2009 for a dollar....

Today that dollar in your draw would buy you about fifty cents worth of the same product in purchases

While that one dollars worth of Bitcoin would buy you $16,000 worth of products

And you argue that the dollar was the better investment. That's comedic.

For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

rxwine

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November 27th, 2022 at 6:09:43 AM permalink

This news item was published in 2013

Quote:
A Norwegian man who bought $27 worth of bitcoins in 2009 and forgot about them discovered their value had since shot up - to $980,000 at today's price.
Kristoffer Koch decided to buy 5,000 bitcoins for only 150 Norwegian kroner ($26.60) in 2009, after discovering bitcoin as part of an encryption thesis he was working on.

Quote:
�I buy a lot of technical little things that I never have time to use, and this was the worst of all, the fact that I was buying fake money," Koch told NRK.

So, what's the lesson?

Make frivolous investments and hope you get lucky?

https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2013/10/29/this-man-bought-27-of-bitcoins-in-2009-and-theyre-now-worth-980k/

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billryan

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November 27th, 2022 at 7:29:19 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
This news item was published in 2013

Quote:
A Norwegian man who bought $27 worth of bitcoins in 2009 and forgot about them discovered their value had since shot up - to $980,000 at today's price.
Kristoffer Koch decided to buy 5,000 bitcoins for only 150 Norwegian kroner ($26.60) in 2009, after discovering bitcoin as part of an encryption thesis he was working on.

Quote:
�I buy a lot of technical little things that I never have time to use, and this was the worst of all, the fact that I was buying fake money," Koch told NRK.

So, what's the lesson?

Make frivolous investments and hope you get lucky?

https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2013/10/29/this-man-bought-27-of-bitcoins-in-2009-and-theyre-now-worth-980k/
link to original post

I'd say the lesson here is as soon as you have access to a time machine, shoot back to 2009. Sometimes people get lucky.
When I had my second comic shop, I dabbled in baseball cards. A guy asked if I could get him a box of basketball cards and gave me a $5 deposit. A few weeks later, the cards arrived, but the guy said he found them elsewhere and didn't want them. I didn't sell them, and eventually, they ended up in the back room, where they got lost. When the shop closed, much of the inventory sat in my Moms garage for years as I moved to Puerto Rico and then Florida.
While cleaning out some stock around 1999, I stumbled across the box, which contained the much in demand Michael Jordan rookie cards ,and sold it at auction for $650. Today, sealed boxes sell for $25,000 or more.
So the guy who wanted to invest lost $5, I made $650, and the person who bought it might make $25,000. I find it ironic the guy who started this chain lost money, but everyone else profited from it.

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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November 27th, 2022 at 7:36:42 AM permalink

Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

I don�t think you or I are clairvoyant enough to know if Bitcoin is or is not a good investment now FOR SURE.
I agree with you that I THINK it�s a bad investment.

But only time will tell. You would have been making the same negative posts in 2009, and again in 2015. And been wrong.

AxelWolf

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November 27th, 2022 at 8:02:51 AM permalink

EvenBob has been negative on BTC since 2013 when the price was in the $200-$400 range. Here we are 8 years later and it's around $16,566.

If one thinks BTC is a bad investment there are multiple ways to short it or make side bets,
simply put your money where your mouth is.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

rxwine

Threads: 218
Posts: 12698

Joined: Feb 28, 2010

November 27th, 2022 at 8:04:39 AM permalink

Quote: SOOPOO
Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

I don�t think you or I are clairvoyant enough to know if Bitcoin is or is not a good investment now FOR SURE.
I agree with you that I THINK it�s a bad investment.

But only time will tell. You would have been making the same negative posts in 2009, and again in 2015. And been wrong.
link to original post

The one strategy I would apply to Bitcoin in 2009 wouldn�t apply to it today. It was brand new. First innovations of anything have a better than average chance of increased value no matter if they turn out to be junk before the year is out. At least bitcoin was something that could be stored without taking up room. Even if something doesn�t turn out to be a goldmine it is more likely to keep some value than later versions.

Sanitized for Your Protection

billryan

Threads: 253
Posts: 17205

Joined: Nov 2, 2009

November 27th, 2022 at 8:04:56 AM permalink

Quote: SOOPOO
Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

I don�t think you or I are clairvoyant enough to know if Bitcoin is or is not a good investment now FOR SURE.
I agree with you that I THINK it�s a bad investment.

But only time will tell. You would have been making the same negative posts in 2009, and again in 2015. And been wrong.
link to original post

Would I have been? So why wasn't I making those posts? What changed between those periods?

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

billryan

Threads: 253
Posts: 17205

Joined: Nov 2, 2009

November 27th, 2022 at 8:36:31 AM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: DRich
Quote: rxwine
Bitcoin itself seems more like a wager than an investment.

^^^This^^^
link to original post
Aren't most investments a gamble/wager? Some are far less risky than others but less risk oftentimes equals less potential reward.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you can show me the +EV math, all investments are just gambling. Since no one can predict the future, even things that have past data showing decades of positive returns can suddenly crash.
link to original post

I'll asses the risk if I can ever find a cost for personal crypto insurance from long term well-established insurance companies. Every time I look up cost I get some price for a business. Not even sure if any of that is still accurate with recent failures. Or how much of assets it covers. What does it cost for 10k of crypto or 100k of crypto for theft in a personal account.
link to original post
The #1 form of insuring your BTC.... Don't keep it on an exchange, the exchanges are the problem, not Bitcoin. When done correctly, it would be extremely hard for anyone to get your BTC.

I actually think there are a few exchanges like Coincover that do various insurance. Coinbase has some insurance if the site is hacked, but not if your personal account is hacked. I don't know enough about all that. Obviously, insured crypto isn't the norm. The entire point of BTC is the antithesis of government and big institution interference/involvement.

If we are to believe Satoshi Nakamoto was the person behind BTC, it wasn't some attempt at a Ponzi scheme or about getting rich, It was simply a way to create an internet currency. "Simply put, he created it to take financial control back from financial elites, giving ordinary people a chance to take part in a decentralized financial system." https://cointelegraph.com/bitcoin-for-beginners/who-is-satoshi-nakamoto-the-creator-of-bitcoin

I highly doubt he or anyone initially thought it would grow into something this big.
link to original post

You do realize Satoshi Nakamoto doesn't exist, right? That's like saying Kizer Soze ate my homework.

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

AxelWolf

Threads: 170
Posts: 22691

Joined: Oct 10, 2012

November 27th, 2022 at 8:45:06 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
Quote: SOOPOO
Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

I don�t think you or I are clairvoyant enough to know if Bitcoin is or is not a good investment now FOR SURE.
I agree with you that I THINK it�s a bad investment.

But only time will tell. You would have been making the same negative posts in 2009, and again in 2015. And been wrong.
link to original post

Would I have been? So why wasn't I making those posts? What changed between those periods?
link to original post

As far as I can tell on this thread your first warning/negative post about BTC was when BTC was around 10k.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

billryan

Threads: 253
Posts: 17205

Joined: Nov 2, 2009

November 27th, 2022 at 8:52:42 AM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: billryan
Quote: SOOPOO
Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

I don�t think you or I are clairvoyant enough to know if Bitcoin is or is not a good investment now FOR SURE.
I agree with you that I THINK it�s a bad investment.

But only time will tell. You would have been making the same negative posts in 2009, and again in 2015. And been wrong.
link to original post

Would I have been? So why wasn't I making those posts? What changed between those periods?
link to original post
As far as I can tell on this thread your first warning/negative post about BTC was when BTC was around 10k.
link to original post

Can you point it out? I honestly don't recall getting into this until it was closer to $50,000 but things went atwitter
long before it. I personally don't care what fools do with their money, but when I saw what was obviously misinformation being spewed here, I broke my rule of not discussing investments.
A word to the wise is sufficient, yet here we are, months later with bitcoin down 75% and some are still harping on it.

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

rxwine

Threads: 218
Posts: 12698

Joined: Feb 28, 2010

November 27th, 2022 at 8:53:55 AM permalink

If I hear Musk hint that he is going to supplement his Starlink satellite system with space based crypto mining I�ll be buying. I�ve thought for awhile mining in space, (free cooling and free energy) needs implementing.

I have no idea if it�s doable or practical. But seems like an otherwise good environment.

Sanitized for Your Protection

billryan

Threads: 253
Posts: 17205

Joined: Nov 2, 2009

November 27th, 2022 at 8:56:10 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
If I hear Musk hint that he is going to supplement his Starlink satellite system with space based crypto mining I�ll be buying. I�ve thought for awhile mining in space, (free cooling and free energy) needs implementing.

I have no idea if it�s doable or practical. But seems like an otherwise good environment.
link to original post

I'd guesstimate it is about three or four decades away.

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

AxelWolf

Threads: 170
Posts: 22691

Joined: Oct 10, 2012

November 27th, 2022 at 8:59:32 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: DRich
Quote: rxwine
Bitcoin itself seems more like a wager than an investment.

^^^This^^^
link to original post
Aren't most investments a gamble/wager? Some are far less risky than others but less risk oftentimes equals less potential reward.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you can show me the +EV math, all investments are just gambling. Since no one can predict the future, even things that have past data showing decades of positive returns can suddenly crash.
link to original post

I'll asses the risk if I can ever find a cost for personal crypto insurance from long term well-established insurance companies. Every time I look up cost I get some price for a business. Not even sure if any of that is still accurate with recent failures. Or how much of assets it covers. What does it cost for 10k of crypto or 100k of crypto for theft in a personal account.
link to original post
The #1 form of insuring your BTC.... Don't keep it on an exchange, the exchanges are the problem, not Bitcoin. When done correctly, it would be extremely hard for anyone to get your BTC.

I actually think there are a few exchanges like Coincover that do various insurance. Coinbase has some insurance if the site is hacked, but not if your personal account is hacked. I don't know enough about all that. Obviously, insured crypto isn't the norm. The entire point of BTC is the antithesis of government and big institution interference/involvement.

If we are to believe Satoshi Nakamoto was the person behind BTC, it wasn't some attempt at a Ponzi scheme or about getting rich, It was simply a way to create an internet currency. "Simply put, he created it to take financial control back from financial elites, giving ordinary people a chance to take part in a decentralized financial system." https://cointelegraph.com/bitcoin-for-beginners/who-is-satoshi-nakamoto-the-creator-of-bitcoin

I highly doubt he or anyone initially thought it would grow into something this big.
link to original post

You do realize Satoshi Nakamoto doesn't exist, right? That's like saying Kizer Soze ate my homework.
link to original post

I did say, "If we are to believe" Id assume that's not his real name just like AxelWolf isn't my real name.

I haven't a clue what the real story is, I doubt anyone but a few people actually do and I'm sure they would all tell a different story. Whatever the case, they created something successful that works mostly as it should.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

EvenBob

EvenBob

Threads: 442
Posts: 29633

Joined: Jul 18, 2010

November 27th, 2022 at 8:59:35 AM permalink

Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

Look at gold. If you've been following gold for the last 20 years you know there have been some tremendous ups and downs and yet gold always comes back. The reason it always comes back is because it does not depend one bit on public sentiment and public support for its price. Whereas Bitcoin depends 100% on public sentiment and public support which is very fickle and once you lose it it's very hard to gain it back. And Bitcoin loses it little by little every week. Bitcoin totally depends on a never-ending line of suckers who are willing to invest in it. Gold depends on nothing because gold has intrinsic value. Bitcoin has no value other than what we give it by our willingness to get sucked into buying it.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

billryan

Threads: 253
Posts: 17205

Joined: Nov 2, 2009

November 27th, 2022 at 9:11:55 AM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: billryan
Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: DRich
Quote: rxwine
Bitcoin itself seems more like a wager than an investment.

^^^This^^^
link to original post
Aren't most investments a gamble/wager? Some are far less risky than others but less risk oftentimes equals less potential reward.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you can show me the +EV math, all investments are just gambling. Since no one can predict the future, even things that have past data showing decades of positive returns can suddenly crash.
link to original post

I'll asses the risk if I can ever find a cost for personal crypto insurance from long term well-established insurance companies. Every time I look up cost I get some price for a business. Not even sure if any of that is still accurate with recent failures. Or how much of assets it covers. What does it cost for 10k of crypto or 100k of crypto for theft in a personal account.
link to original post
The #1 form of insuring your BTC.... Don't keep it on an exchange, the exchanges are the problem, not Bitcoin. When done correctly, it would be extremely hard for anyone to get your BTC.

I actually think there are a few exchanges like Coincover that do various insurance. Coinbase has some insurance if the site is hacked, but not if your personal account is hacked. I don't know enough about all that. Obviously, insured crypto isn't the norm. The entire point of BTC is the antithesis of government and big institution interference/involvement.

If we are to believe Satoshi Nakamoto was the person behind BTC, it wasn't some attempt at a Ponzi scheme or about getting rich, It was simply a way to create an internet currency. "Simply put, he created it to take financial control back from financial elites, giving ordinary people a chance to take part in a decentralized financial system." https://cointelegraph.com/bitcoin-for-beginners/who-is-satoshi-nakamoto-the-creator-of-bitcoin

I highly doubt he or anyone initially thought it would grow into something this big.
link to original post

You do realize Satoshi Nakamoto doesn't exist, right? That's like saying Kizer Soze ate my homework.
link to original post
I did say, "If we are to believe" Id assume that's not his real name just like AxelWolf isn't my real name.

I haven't a clue what the real story is, I doubt anyone but a few people actually do and I'm sure they would all tell a different story. Whatever the case, they created something successful that works mostly as it should.
link to original post

Works mostly as it should? If it was working as it was designed, you'd be spending multiple bitcoin on a pizza., not losing $40,000 on one if you bought at the peak. It's not supposed to have peaks and valleys.
Outside of banks and a few hi-worth individuals, you don't " invest" in a currency. You invest in stocks,or in commodities, or some invest in collectibles. No one gives their niece a $100 bill and says put it away and someday you'll be able to buy a car with it. Bitcoin was designed to ease transactions, not as a tool for speculators. It's broken and I don't see it getting fixed.
Bitcoin was meant to be a means to facilitate transactions, not to build wealth, or if you've been a buyer these past two years, to lose wealth.

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

darkoz

Threads: 300
Posts: 11902

Joined: Dec 22, 2009

November 27th, 2022 at 9:16:54 AM permalink

Quote: EvenBob
Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

Look at gold. If you've been following gold for the last 20 years you know there have been some tremendous ups and downs and yet gold always comes back. The reason it always comes back is because it does not depend one bit on public sentiment and public support for its price. Whereas Bitcoin depends 100% on public sentiment and public support which is very fickle and once you lose it it's very hard to gain it back. And Bitcoin loses it little by little every week. Bitcoin totally depends on a never-ending line of suckers who are willing to invest in it. Gold depends on nothing because gold has intrinsic value. Bitcoin has no value other than what we give it by our willingness to get sucked into buying it.
link to original post

What intrinsic value does gold have?

You can eat it?

Rub on your skin and it helps you avoid rashes?

Ingest it and it cures disease?

Gold is worthless by itself. Oh, it's pretty!

That's what sells artwork. Which also has no intrinsic value except people want it.

Yep gold is a collectible. Even turned into jewelry it's just a form of gold collecting.

What nonsense is this about gold has intrinsic value?

Simple question. You are stuck on a desert island with no food or water and no hope of rescue for a few years what do you wish for most. A thousand pounds of canned food and water or a thousand pounds of gold.

For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

ChumpChange

Threads: 131
Posts: 5112

Joined: Jun 15, 2018

November 27th, 2022 at 9:20:57 AM permalink

Has gold gone up in value by 40% in Japan since the Yen has lost 40% of its value? What's the meaning of gold if your currency is worthless?

tuttigym

tuttigym

Threads: 10
Posts: 2053

Joined: Feb 12, 2010

November 27th, 2022 at 9:28:23 AM permalink

Quote: darkoz
Quote: EvenBob
Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

Look at gold. If you've been following gold for the last 20 years you know there have been some tremendous ups and downs and yet gold always comes back. The reason it always comes back is because it does not depend one bit on public sentiment and public support for its price. Whereas Bitcoin depends 100% on public sentiment and public support which is very fickle and once you lose it it's very hard to gain it back. And Bitcoin loses it little by little every week. Bitcoin totally depends on a never-ending line of suckers who are willing to invest in it. Gold depends on nothing because gold has intrinsic value. Bitcoin has no value other than what we give it by our willingness to get sucked into buying it.
link to original post

What intrinsic value does gold have?

You can eat it?

Rub on your skin and it helps you avoid rashes?

Ingest it and it cures disease?

Gold is worthless by itself. Oh, it's pretty!

That's what sells artwork. Which also has no intrinsic value except people want it.

Yep gold is a collectible. Even turned into jewelry it's just a form of gold collecting.

What nonsense is this about gold has intrinsic value?

Simple question. You are stuck on a desert island with no food or water and no hope of rescue for a few years what do you wish for most. A thousand pounds of canned food and water or a thousand pounds of gold.
link to original post

What kind of dog food?

tuttigym

GenoDRPh

GenoDRPh

Threads: 11
Posts: 694

Joined: Aug 4, 2022

November 27th, 2022 at 9:33:23 AM permalink

Quote: darkoz
Quote: EvenBob
Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

Look at gold. If you've been following gold for the last 20 years you know there have been some tremendous ups and downs and yet gold always comes back. The reason it always comes back is because it does not depend one bit on public sentiment and public support for its price. Whereas Bitcoin depends 100% on public sentiment and public support which is very fickle and once you lose it it's very hard to gain it back. And Bitcoin loses it little by little every week. Bitcoin totally depends on a never-ending line of suckers who are willing to invest in it. Gold depends on nothing because gold has intrinsic value. Bitcoin has no value other than what we give it by our willingness to get sucked into buying it.
link to original post

What intrinsic value does gold have?

You can eat it?

Rub on your skin and it helps you avoid rashes?

Ingest it and it cures disease?

Gold is worthless by itself. Oh, it's pretty!

That's what sells artwork. Which also has no intrinsic value except people want it.

Yep gold is a collectible. Even turned into jewelry it's just a form of gold collecting.

What nonsense is this about gold has intrinsic value?

Simple question. You are stuck on a desert island with no food or water and no hope of rescue for a few years what do you wish for most. A thousand pounds of canned food and water or a thousand pounds of gold.
link to original post

Injection of certain gold salts have been used for decades as a somewhat effective treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, actually..

billryan

Threads: 253
Posts: 17205

Joined: Nov 2, 2009

November 27th, 2022 at 9:33:45 AM permalink

If you are stuck on a desert island with no food or water and no hope of rescue, what does it matter what else you have?
Simple solutions for simple minds. Sometimes it is hard to have an adult conversation when people keep injecting whataboutisms into it.
Someone could ask me if I'd rather have a bitcoin than covid, and some here would twist my answer into support for bitcoin.

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

AxelWolf

Threads: 170
Posts: 22691

Joined: Oct 10, 2012

November 27th, 2022 at 9:36:34 AM permalink

Quote: billryan
Quote: AxelWolf
Quote: billryan
Quote: SOOPOO
Quote: billryan

Was bitcoin a great investment in 2009? Yep.
Was it a great investment in 2015? Yep
Does that make it a great investment today?- Nope.
link to original post

I don�t think you or I are clairvoyant enough to know if Bitcoin is or is not a good investment now FOR SURE.
I agree with you that I THINK it�s a bad investment.

But only time will tell. You would have been making the same negative posts in 2009, and again in 2015. And been wrong.
link to original post

Would I have been? So why wasn't I making those posts? What changed between those periods?
link to original post
As far as I can tell on this thread your first warning/negative post about BTC was when BTC was around 10k.
link to original post

Can you point it out? I honestly don't recall getting into this until it was closer to $50,000 but things went atwitter
long before it. I personally don't care what fools do with their money, but when I saw what was obviously misinformation being spewed here, I broke my rule of not discussing investments.
A word to the wise is sufficient, yet here we are, months later with bitcoin down 75% and some are still harping on it.
link to original post

You would be wrong. You'll have to go back and look for it, it was on October(11th?) of 2020, and you compared it to tulips or something like that. I think it's down 69% from it's high(?). It's up since your initial word to the wise, and it even got up to over 65k.

There are lots of stocks that are down a significant amount as well I pointed that out in a previous post does that mean they were foolish investments? I guess in hindsight.

I remember you talking about Mark Cuban, he seems to still be standing firm on crypto as are many other notable people. As I said before, I'm a fan of Bitcoin, it's useful to some people. I'm invested(gladfully so) but I have many concerns and questions that I posed in a previous post(No BTC supporters really had anything to say)

The truth is... everyone is just guessing. Your guess is no better than mine. I'm guessing after the smoke clears BTC will gain some ground.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

ChumpChange

Threads: 131
Posts: 5112

Joined: Jun 15, 2018

November 27th, 2022 at 9:38:06 AM permalink

That would be a 100 bitcoin minimum for me at these prices.

rxwine

https://geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml

Threads: 218
Posts: 12698

Joined: Feb 28, 2010

November 27th, 2022 at 9:41:22 AM permalink

People do eat gold flakes on food. For purposes of ostentatiousness, I guess.

Quote:
Of all the minerals mined from the Earth, none is more useful than gold. Its usefulness is derived from a diversity of special properties. Gold conducts electricity, does not tarnish, is very easy to work, can be drawn into wire, can be hammered into thin sheets, alloys with many other metals, can be melted and cast into highly detailed shapes, has a wonderful color and a brilliant luster. Gold is a memorable metal that occupies a special place in the human mind.

Sanitized for Your Protection

AxelWolf