I have an AP dream
That casino workers and casino APs can walk down the casino floor hand in hand unafraid to admit they know each other
I have an AP dream I have a dream
I have an AP dream that Blackjack card counters
Will be able to sit and spread thousands at high counts
Without the fear of backoffs or bannings.
That the casino bean counters will realize they make more money by not countering the counters and wasting money in a game of cat and mouse
I have an AP dream I have a dream
I have an AP dream that one day black men who play poker and Asian women who can see little markings on cards are not sued for their well gotten gains and that casinos honor their debts
I have an AP dream I have a dream
I have an AP dream that one day casinos will not consider the taking of free gifts as stealing and recognize that reneging on offers earned through previous gameplay is them stealing from the customers.
I have a dream that casinos will have no problem with freinds and family using other people player cards with their permission
I have a dream that no one who is legally making money at a casino aka law abiding citizens will not be unduly harrassed and made to feel inferior. Forced to drink out of water fountains located in other properties because they have been trespassed in the former
I have an AP dream.
I have an AP dream
*freely adapted from a speech by Martin Luther King jr.
Quote: darkoz
That the casino bean counters will realize they make more money by not countering the counters and wasting money in a game of cat and mouse
There's no way this is objectively true... the whole point of APing is to gain a positive edge over the casino, right? If an AP has a positive edge, and the casino lets him play, they are not going to make MORE money off of that situation....
Quote: TigerWuThere's no way this is objectively true... the whole point of APing is to gain a positive edge over the casino, right? If an AP has a positive edge, and the casino lets him play, they are not going to make MORE money off of that situation....
I said it was a dream
Dream logic please
But seriously it has been argued that card counters who have succesfull stories to tell generate more business for Blackjack than if all card counters were destroyed
Quote: darkozBut seriously it has been argued that card counters who have succesfull stories to tell generate more business for Blackjack than if all card counters were destroyed
Well, in that case I wonder how much revenue Don Johnson generated for casinos after he took them for $15 million... I hope they at least made their money back!
Quote: TigerWuWell, in that case I wonder how much revenue Don Johnson generated for casinos after he took them for $15 million... I hope they at least made their money back!
Lots publicity
Theres all types of shows on him
But he wasnt card counting
Quote: darkozLots publicity
Theres all types of shows on him
But he wasnt card counting
I know 90% of his scheme was exploiting the comp system hard, but I thought he was counting, too...?
Quote: TigerWuThere's no way this is objectively true... the whole point of APing is to gain a positive edge over the casino, right? If an AP has a positive edge, and the casino lets him play, they are not going to make MORE money off of that situation....
I think it’s generally true when it comes to card counting.
Quote: TigerWuI know 90% of his scheme was exploiting the comp system hard, but I thought he was counting, too...?
Not from what I remember in the doc I saw
He used 20% rebate combined with alterations to the rules that knocked the house advantage to almost nothing
Supposedly they also had some rule about dealer mistakes that he capitalized on turning it plus ev for him
That last part always sounded suspect to me but that's the way it was described
But if they let anyone and everyone play? You’ll have every seat of every table filled with APs spreading $25 to $5,000. No casino can sustain that kind of action.
Where casinos mess up is they do things to slow down their games unnecessarily. Offer good or at least decent games, put the cut card near the end, and either use an ASM or a shuffle that doesn’t take 10 minutes to complete. Oh yeah, and hire competent people that know a thing or two about game protection. It’s incredibly easy to spot a card counter — 90% if the time you can just tell, without seeing him play.
As I read it, the killer punch was the 20% loss rebate, which all on its own was a player advantage of between 10% and 20%. Counting and bet ramping would be an unneccessary red flag if he did that, and not a patch on the loss rebate advantage.Quote: darkozNot from what I remember in the doc I saw
He used 20% rebate combined with alterations to the rules that knocked the house advantage to almost nothing
Supposedly they also had some rule about dealer mistakes that he capitalized on turning it plus ev for him
That last part always sounded suspect to me but that's the way it was described
What several commentators struggle with is that just having the loss rebate there was valuable. If he had the luck to not need to call on it is incidental. Loss rebates rock, but they are oft derided and little understood. Thank goodness: That keeps them available.
Also, I read that he ruthlessly exploited dealer errors, though how many of those happened at such astronomical wagers, is a question. I can't see many going unspotted by the management.
I reckon the legends about APs, even DJ, are fantastic adverts for the casinos and good value to them.
The favorable rules negotiations were enough to win.
Quote: TigerWuAh, okay, I just read a little more about Don Johnson and apparently he specifically says he does not count cards.
The favorable rules negotiations were enough to win.
I have read he didn’t count cards but the people he brought with him were counting and hole carding this ap is not an ap to me but a team of ap he was the distraction
Quote: heatmapI have read he didn’t count cards but the people he brought with him were counting and hole carding this ap is not an ap to me but a team of ap he was the distraction
A link to where you read that
First I heard of this
Quote: darkozA link to where you read that
First I heard of this
I’m not at my laptop but I will find it when I get there after I put out this fire. I am pretty sure I have read the same thing in about 2 or 3 articles. I want to believe blackjack can be beat too but I have been disappointed by this story because it’s all over and no one ever says that’ was what he was doing only the articles do
Quote: darkozA link to where you read that
First I heard of this
https://www.888casino.com/blog/burning-down-the-house-the-amazing-story-of-don-johnson
Edit
And the way I see it, he might be saying he didn’t count cards, and he may not have, but was still receiving signals of what to do from people who were. Maybe he didn’t cheat or whatever legally and that’s why he’s in the hall of fame or whatever. He probably patched up a costly legal hole all while making the media speculate as to what he did and someone cane up with the story of cash back and the rest ran with it. I don’t know.
Counting, hole card reading, sequencing is what’s claimed in that article link.
Edit 2
What am I saying we’re talking about a winner technically it can be beaten but the only lesson here is that you have to cheat well card counting is not cheating but if you are specifically by design not supposed to know the sequence or hole card then I’m saying you cheat I guess
Quote: darkozNot from what I remember in the doc I saw
Supposedly they also had some rule about dealer mistakes that he capitalized on turning it plus ev for him
That last part always sounded suspect to me but that's the way it was described
There was not a rule, he just was able to take advantage of enough dealer mistakes to make money. His main income came from his loss rebates. He was able to negotiate a deal that the casinos could not possibly make any money from him long term.
Card counting worth player edge of maybe 2% : Loss rebate worth player edge of easily 15%. You decide.
Quote: OnceDearThe article previously linked to by Heatmap, attributes Johnson's success to card counting, hole carding with a spotter, and shoe sequencing by another spotter. I believe that while he may have done those things, the true secret to his success was the loss rebate as explained in this article. The author of that article actually corresponded with DJ.
Card counting worth player edge of maybe 2% : Loss rebate worth player edge of easily 15%. You decide.
im going to assume he was smart enough to know all of these events before they happened. he had people who could cruch the numbers and tell him exactly what to do in order to become successful, whether it was loss rebates, plus the other stuff that is claimed in the 888 article. i believe it all.
the thing that gets me is the amount of time in between the articles. its like he couldnt really tell anyone for a specified period of time or something and then all of a sudden bam we get changing stories. its like a person on the stand who was compelled by someone who was threatening them and then there is no longer a threat and they change their story. <- all speculation though and makes for a cool story in my mind ;)
Quote: heatmapQuote: OnceDearthe thing that gets me is the amount of time in between the articles. its like he couldnt really tell anyone for a specified period of time or something and then all of a sudden bam we get changing stories. its like a person on the stand who was compelled by someone who was threatening them and then there is no longer a threat and they change their story. <- all speculation though and makes for a cool story in my mind ;)
It is my belief that he did not tell the true story while there was still a chance he could get the same deal with another company.
Once he realized that nobody would make the deal, he spoke about it.
But what do I know?Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
